suparuss
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| posted on 30/5/05 at 09:21 PM |
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carbon manifold??
howdy yall, not been round ere for ages, so many new faces, nice to see the locost spirit getting biger an bigger!
anyway to me question, tricky deciding which section to put this in so sorry if tis in the wrong place.
im half way into coverting my audi 5 cyling engine to EFI with indiviual motor bike throttle bodies, and am getting to the point where i need to start
thinking about a manifold. i have a bit of carbon fibre sheet lying around and some west epoxy that id like to use. trouble is the manifold is
obviously gonna be connection straight to the cylinder head which gets quite hot, plus the fact that on the engine the exhaust manifold is directy
below the intake manifold so need to know if the west system stuff is up to the job or if anyone knows another epoxy i could use?
the only heat relating info i could find on the west systems website is "Heat Deflection Temperature (°F) - 118" whatever that means. ill
be using an aluminium plate to interface with the block so that should help a bit, but im still worried!
Cheers,
Russ.
PS- added a pic to wet yer appetites! 
[img][/img]
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clbarclay
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| posted on 30/5/05 at 09:30 PM |
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108 degrees farenheit which is about 42.5 degrees celsius.
The pressureised cooling system in a car runs at just over 100 celsius, thats why its pressurised. My guess (some what limited) would be that that
epoxy doesn't stand a chance.
[Edited on 30/5/05 by clbarclay]
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Hellfire
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| posted on 30/5/05 at 09:33 PM |
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Most 'Eastern' manufacturers use some type of plastic (thermoplastic?) to manufacture their manifolds from. Not sure of specific
temperature ratings but I'd estimate they're not miles apart.
I'd give it a go.... 2 chances really!!!
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ady8077
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| posted on 30/5/05 at 09:52 PM |
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Hi Russ
Slightly OT, but are they YAMAHA R6 T B's?
If so are you planning to use the vac operated shutters?
My brothers bought a set for his car and we're just thinking of gluing them open
Adrian
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suparuss
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| posted on 30/5/05 at 10:41 PM |
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cheers for replies, well, gonna give it a try anyway, infact ill prolly just lay a bit up and let i cure then put i in the oven and see what happens
to it, you can post cure it at quite a high temp but think it will make it malleable till its cool again. well see anyway.
ady- yeah they are the r6 tb's from a 5SL, im not sure if ill be using the shutters or not yet, not sure of the difference it would make either
to be honest, in theory they will have a negative effect on throttle response but i dont know to much about it! only reason i chose these particullar
ones is because they have the adjustable linkages and can be seperated indiviually rather than into pairs so are ideal for me cos i needed to make a
line of 5!
russ.
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JonBowden
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| posted on 30/5/05 at 10:59 PM |
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How about using flexible cooling system hoses to connect between the throttle bodies and a fabricated aluminium stub manifold.
Should take the heat
Easy to make
With care in the edge of the stub manifold, it should flow ok (I think)
Jon
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Liam
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| posted on 30/5/05 at 11:28 PM |
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Oooh I'm glad you think that'll flow OK!! Cos that's kind of how I plan to do my custom intake on me V6 to make it easy to make.
Stub manifolds (cut from the original intake casting) then flexible hoses to fabbed plenums. Only problem i can see with flow is the step
you'll have going from hoses to the manifolds/plenum/TBs but I guess you could 'sharpen' these edges so the flow is smooth.
What does anyone else reckon?
Liam
[Edited on 30/5/05 by Liam]
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JonBowden
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| posted on 31/5/05 at 12:10 AM |
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Interesting that you want to use this on a V6 - I wanted to use it for a rover V8 years ago. I was sure that I was loosing power because the incomming
charge was picking up alot of heat from the plenim (the whole thing was quite hot) I figured that the rubber tubes would help reduce heat transfer to
the plenim and thus to the incomming air.
I figured I could make a neat job of the hoses like fingers crossing each other.
I think that as long as the stub manifold has beveled inlets, the flow should be acceptable (purists would object). The heat arguement should outweigh
any downsides.
One problem I can see is that the tubes might colapse if the throttle is closed at high revs
 
Rescued attachment manifold.gif
Jon
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Liam
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| posted on 31/5/05 at 01:03 AM |
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Cool! That's exactly my plan - the tubes crossing over each other in the middle, going to plenums on top of each rocker cover and using two
throttle boddies. Clio V6 has an intake just like this. Then plan to get it running with megasquirt and add twin turbos later!
I think using flexible hose will be rather easier than my other option of fabbing ally or carbon interlocking tubes! Hopefully wont hurt power too
much. I wonder if you can get hose with a stepped edge so that the internal diameter can be smooth...
Liam
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JonBowden
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| posted on 31/5/05 at 01:55 AM |
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Liam, that trendy blue stuff that many people use for cooling hoses is I believe made on a former by spirally wrapping some sort of tape (seen a
photograph of it somewhere). Perhaps special tubes could be made with a step in them. While they're at it they might be able to add some metal
reinforcement to prevent it colapsing
Jon
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Clay
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| posted on 31/5/05 at 03:02 AM |
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Why not just bolt the throttle bodies to the head, then route air towards the throttle bodies through a vent?
Is your setup planning on having the throttle bodies bolted to the head then having a plenum supply air to the throttle bodies?
If so, why couldnt you just make some sort of air box?
*Edit*: oh i see, they are all attached, and most likely wont bolt up to the head correctly. Is there any way to get actual individual throttle bodies
that are actually like each their own throttle body? If not, how are you going to do 5cyls?
[Edited on 31/5/05 by Clay]
Clay Marsh
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suparuss
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| posted on 31/5/05 at 08:28 AM |
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oh dear i have opened up a big can 'o worms here! love the idea of using the silicon hose. to take it a step further i could also icorporate the
carbon manifold using silicon hose as a heat barrier. id have to have some sort of funny shaped plenum cos as clay has predicted the spacing on the
TB's is different to the head intakes. the spacing on the head is staggered as well so one of the spacings is some 2" smaller than the
rest.
another idea also- RS stock plastics in rod and sheet form that have a max nomal service temperature of 120 C this could be easily machined into small
tubes that would not collapse under any pressure a car could throw at it and is quite cheap and wouldnt transmit heat like ally would. any
thoughts?
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suparuss
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| posted on 31/5/05 at 08:33 AM |
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ps- Clay- the reason i used these particullar throttle bodies is because they split individually, if you count the TB's in the pic youll see
there are five all in line, and one of the spares in the top left corner. i had to buy two sets and split them to acheive this then modify the fuel
rail and fast idle linkages.
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viatron
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| posted on 31/5/05 at 08:43 AM |
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silicon hoses are available with steel reinforcement, try your local truck parts shop as they are not uncommon on truck intercooler hoses.
Just bouight a carbon fibre exhaust can for my tiger so i would have thought heat resuistance shouldnt be an insurmountable problem if it can be used
in a can!!
Mac
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AvonBelgium
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| posted on 31/5/05 at 09:09 AM |
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Hi,
I used epoxy for my carbon manifold that is heat resistant to 135 °C.
Take a look in my archive.
I do not had the posibility to test it !!
But I now that people are using it on bike exhausts, so it should be OK
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suparuss
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| posted on 31/5/05 at 11:57 AM |
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nice one, shame you havent put it to the test yet. what epoxy did you use?
i have seen other examples on the net so knew it was possible.
cheers,
russ.
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MkIndy7
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| posted on 31/5/05 at 01:37 PM |
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On the R1 the Tb's connect to the engine with a small hose and clip arrangement, not sure if you got any of those you could use.
And about those throttle slides, don't they work on a positive pressure?
We've been told the connectors for them are fed from the airbox but after driving down the road with a funnel out of the window at 50 I
can't see this being true!.
From what i've seen on a FJR1300 where there easier to see they might be connected to the crank case breather so at low revs they stay shut and
then slowly open as the revs increase to stop any suddens snaps that would throw you off the bike, so they may help stop a car from bogging down when
you snap open the throttle.
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Mave
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| posted on 31/5/05 at 03:16 PM |
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I'm currently in the process of making a carbon fibre inlet manifold for my Zetec. I'm using a carbon bike-can as the plenum chamber, and
a part of the original aluminium intake manifold to feed the cylinders. You could use the same concept.
Details will follow on my website:
www.mk-indy.nl
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suparuss
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| posted on 31/5/05 at 05:59 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MkIndy7
And about those throttle slides, don't they work on a positive pressure?
We've been told the connectors for them are fed from the airbox but after driving down the road with a funnel out of the window at 50 I
can't see this being true!.
.
think youve been misinformed there. the tubes that go to the airbox are just breathers to the back of the vacuum diaphrams, they are opened purely
through vacuum from the engine. if you put yer mouth against the end that goes to the engine and suck whilst covering the intake youll notice they
open quite easily.
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Clay
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| posted on 31/5/05 at 07:55 PM |
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we used a plastic tube on our fsae car, it worked fine, unfortunatly i dont know what kind of plastic it was so ill have to find out and post
tomorrow.
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Volvorsport
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| posted on 31/5/05 at 11:56 PM |
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i use polyester GRP/carbon , and dont have problem with it .
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mj.slater2/intake2.JPG
[Edited on 1/6/05 by Volvorsport]
[Edited on 1/6/05 by Volvorsport]
www.dbsmotorsport.co.uk
getting dirty under a bus
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MkIndy7
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| posted on 1/6/05 at 11:13 AM |
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Right... I probably ought to post this somewhere else but....
What does everybody think to the CV/Throttle slides then, would they be a help or a hinderance when put on a car.
From what I understand there to keep a constant velocity of air going into the TB through the rev-range and various throttle positions.
Would this be an advantage on the car or is it just likely to cause some hesitance or unforseen problems?.
Or would it be like a compact version of what cars have, where they have a variable length air inlet to increase torque at low revs?
Your thoughts are mosst appreciated,
Ian
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