stu da rude
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| posted on 2/11/05 at 08:43 PM |
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suzuki engines?
just a quick question, looking at various cars that have been built, it seems hardly anyone uses the gixxer engine? is there any particular reason
that any1 knows to as to why not? id have thought the gixxer thou would have been a good lump to use? even the old 1000 SRAD makes good power and are
relatively cheap(ish) now? any ideas?
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 2/11/05 at 08:51 PM |
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I think its mostly because it needs dry sumping and they are slightly more expensive to buy than most other litre engines like the R1 etc.
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mac1ZR
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| posted on 2/11/05 at 08:53 PM |
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we're using a GSXR 1000 k5 in our next car,should be pretty awesome!weighs about 60kg and has over 170bhp.mac#1 can get you the engine if you
want one.
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stu da rude
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| posted on 2/11/05 at 08:56 PM |
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do they def. need dry sumping then? does the r1?
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 2/11/05 at 09:05 PM |
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I believe Stuart Taylor tried various different wet sumps on their Gixer 1000 race Pheonixs last year before finally going dry sump after blowing
several engines. If just used on the road you may be OK, but for track work Id not risk it.
The R1 doesnt need dry sumping even for track work (unless maybe if you're using huge slicks etc)
Chris
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Hellfire
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| posted on 2/11/05 at 10:34 PM |
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As Chris say's - apparently even with dry sump they are not as near bomb proof as a wet sumped 'blade or NKOTB R1.
There's a reason you don't see many and that's the reason - there are a lot better engines.
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zxrlocost
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| posted on 2/11/05 at 10:36 PM |
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in simple words the r1 carbed engine with loom and etc can be bought for just over a grand
it has 150bhp the later fuel injected version has 170bhp... but is dearer and much harder to wire up as you can imagine..
all that needs doing is the clutch springs and top up with oil..
it weighs 55kg which is  then its performance characteristics are fearce!!!
the fireblade is obviously cheaper and also more easier to get going like the r1
basically theres a lot of engines that need things doing to them before there ready for a BEC
and theres only a couple that are easy and cost effective
HTH
#
chris
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benji106
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| posted on 2/11/05 at 10:38 PM |
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do the Busa engines need dry sumping then? i thought that they were fairly popular in BEC's?
-Everything in excess-
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OX
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| posted on 2/11/05 at 10:42 PM |
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some say yes some say no,,i did mine for peace of mind 
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G.Man
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| posted on 2/11/05 at 10:54 PM |
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If you use on the track or push hard on the road then dry sump the busa...
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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Hellfire
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| posted on 2/11/05 at 10:54 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by OX
some say yes some say no,,i did mine for peace of mind
If you drive like "a lady" you don't need one then - is that what you're trying to say Ox?
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stu da rude
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| posted on 2/11/05 at 11:57 PM |
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thanks for the replies folks, think ill stick with my original plan and go blade then... out of interest, what does NKOTB mean hellfire? with regard
to the R1 sump?
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Mad Dave
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| posted on 3/11/05 at 08:34 AM |
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NKOTB - Hangin' Tough!!!
[Edited on 3/11/05 by Mad Dave]
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dhollin3
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| posted on 3/11/05 at 09:14 AM |
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What is the reason for dry sumping? Even with baffled wet sumps do you still got oil starvation. Thus needing a dry sump system...Does it lubricate
reliably?
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Coose
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| posted on 3/11/05 at 10:06 AM |
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Yes. A dry sump will give a constant oil supply (so long as you have enough oil in the remote tank) as it can't run away from the pick-up as per
even a baffled wet sump!
They can have their own potential problems - you're introducing more moving parts (scavenge pumps etc.) and also another belt which has the
potential of snapping!
Also, you need to be able to drive the scavenge pumps, which can mean losing your water pump drive and fitting an external water pump, which is
something else to go wrong!
But on a brighter note, most dry-sump kits that you can get now are pretty well developed and failures are few and far between....
If I was going to do it again, I would still go for an R1 as my install was very straight forward, and it's done 3000 very hard miles on a stock
clutch of unknown origin and has been absolutely fine! So the moral is, if you buy an R1 motor, keep the standard clutch until you really need a new
one!
[Edited on 3/11/05 by Coose]
Spin 'er off Well...
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 3/11/05 at 10:23 AM |
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Yep, agree with Coose, a good mate of mine built up a really nice tuned R1 for his Westie and dry sumped it just to protect the investment really.
Sadly it blew up a few weeks ago and first impressions suggest that the dry sump pump wasnt scavenging properly, so the tank basically ran out of oil
and starved the engine 
Im also still on the clutch that came with my engine, although I have installed a Barnett spring conversion
Stu, why a blade over the R1? Im a big fan of the blade but have recently upgraded to a 2003 injected R1 and I wouldnt go back. Apart from the extra
power I think if anything the R1 will be more reliable than the blade, mainly due to the beefier clutch / gearbox which can sometimes be a bit of a
weak point on the blades.
Chris
[Edited on 3/11/05 by ChrisGamlin]
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dhollin3
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| posted on 3/11/05 at 10:53 AM |
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Oh ok. I can see that a dry sump system is going to be quite expensive. So how much will it cost to dry sump an R1?
I am running a blade engine, but i will see how it goes next year once is it SVA'd/ I have done a few racing in the RGB a few years back and it
seemed pretty quick. But not really compared it to other road cars etc. I am always game for getting more power 
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zxrlocost
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| posted on 3/11/05 at 11:07 AM |
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there all into the ŁK's I believe
no need to dry sump an r1 though
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stu da rude
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| posted on 3/11/05 at 11:31 AM |
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chris: to be honest, i only thought blade simply because of the ease of instalation, a lot of people have done it, but then again it seems the R1 is
gaining popularity too! how do the engines compare power for power and torque for torque? i would imagine the R1 to be have more torque? all the
better for a BEC methinks... now im confused... looks like im gonna have to rethink my budget to accomodate an R1 lump...
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zxrlocost
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| posted on 3/11/05 at 11:49 AM |
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fireblabe with all stuff to get going will end up about 15% cheaper than an r1
thats just from prices I have seen
the latest best 929?cc fireblade engine.
is 130bhp otb
the r1 is 150 and weighs the same as the fireblade!
the r1 injection is 170bhp but a bit dearer..
the fireblade is supposed to be a cracking unit both have the ease of install I believe
so its down to what you have to budget
the r1 will obviously work out at about 40bhp per ton better off and more torque
hth
youll hit 60 in under 4 secs with the r1 the blade will not be far off I would say
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 3/11/05 at 12:02 PM |
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Its only 2004 onward R1s that are significantly more powerful, the 2002/2003 injected engine is very similar to the carbed engines at around 150bhp
(nearer 160bhp in a BEC with decent exhaust etc), and exhausts made for the carb engines will fit this engine, but not the 2004/5 as far as I know.
I rolling roaded my blade a couple of years ago and it was 112bhp at the wheels, the R1 is currently 138 at the wheels but hasnt been mapped yet so in
reality Ive gained around 30bhp.
As to performance, any BEC is quick up to 60, I wouldnt say the R1 or a busa for that matter is significantly quicker than a blade (all will be in the
3.5-4s bracket). Its the higher speed acceleration where the more powerful engines pull out a significant advantage over the blade.
The mid-range is punchier with the R1 too, a mate has a Megablade which was very evenly matched with mine when I had the blade installed, but now with
the R1 I can keep up with him whilst just shifting at 8.5-9k rpm.
As to the install, having done both I didnt think the R1 was significantly harder, there's more wires in the loom because of the injection but
that doesnt really make it much more complicated, just takes a bit longer to determine what they all do.
Chris
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dhollin3
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| posted on 3/11/05 at 12:36 PM |
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Sounds interesting.....if my blade ever brakes down then that sounds like a good plan.
Is there any difference in the drive flanges between the two engines. How about the engine cradle, is it easily modified from Blade to R1?
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 3/11/05 at 07:41 PM |
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The drive flange is the same splines but the splined bit of the output shaft is longer on the blade so the flange would need turning down to fit the
R1.
I used the same engine cradle mounts on my chassis as the blade (a Stuart Taylor cradle) but made a new cradle to suit as it was neater and easier
than modding the existing one.
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tks
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| posted on 3/11/05 at 08:45 PM |
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Chris
How can some one check if he needs an baffle or dry sump??
does the oil light come on??
or how can we check this?
Tks
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 3/11/05 at 09:05 PM |
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Basically, you can't! Its trial and error with an unknown engine unfortunately, hence one of the reasons why I often appear to be slightly
negative when people ask about going for alternative engines to "save" money.
You may be able to get some idea from the design of the sump, but they dont seem to follow any particular rule you can truust. Most of the commonly
used engines nowadays have probably gone through the trial and error process in one way or other, try it wet sumped, if it blows up try a baffle, if
it blows up try an accusump, if it still blows go dry sump etc etc.
You might be lucky and catch a flicker of the oil light if you do get surge but if your oil pressure gets low enough to flick the light on when
you're at high revs, the damage will often already been done.
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