blueshift
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| posted on 7/6/03 at 01:22 PM |
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Rover V8 newbie questions
Hi all, I'm new here.. got The Book and thinking about building a rover V8 powered locost. Wondering if any of you experienced chaps had any
useful things to pass on about it. I have hardly done any car work and things before, so maybe a bit ambitious to deviate from book in this way.. but
I want a V8 :)
Also, do you have any ideas how much I should expect to pay for one? I think I'm after a decent runner out of an SD1, carburetted or injected,
I'm not too bothered..
There's a guy at a scrapyard nearby who's selling an SD1 engine for 150 quid, he says it came out of a running car but he can't
guarantee the mileage.. it seems to be missing exhaust manifolds and distributor cap from what I can see, also air filter.. there are some pictures at
http://www.leetfighter.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=scrapyardv8s
Also, do I need to modify the chassis design to take the V8? I have seen discussion of +4 chassis and so on..
And can you get away with a little escort radiator for cooling?..
Many questions :) thanks..
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StuartA
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| posted on 7/6/03 at 04:13 PM |
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Pretty sure a standard chassis is not big enough to take a V8. Luego's Viento is based on a V8 and the chassis is larger than standard (follow
the links to their web page). Alternatively have a look at www.mcsorley.net/locost for some chassis plans for bigger cars. 
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Danozeman
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| posted on 8/6/03 at 10:21 AM |
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Alright mate..
Im building a Ford V8 locost and im having to combine the mcsorley 7+4 and 7+442 and a slight modification of my own to make it fit.. But i think my
engine is bigger than the rover V8. The problem im having is the length of the engine bay and the width of the top rails because of then width of the
heads.
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blueshift
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| posted on 8/6/03 at 02:14 PM |
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Hmm, I'm paranoid about changing the dimensions of the book chassis and cocking up the suspension geometry, or the ability of nosecones to fit..
stuff like that.. but these +4 chassis and things seem fairly well thought out. I have read elsewhere that having it a bit wider is desirable for the
rv8 because of reduced footwell space due to tunnel mods you have to do.
hmmm.. ah well, all this figuring out is part of the fun 
I suppose I should gather my back axle, engine and so on and see where I am. maybe make a mockup chassis out of bamboo or something first.
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Simon
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| posted on 10/6/03 at 10:50 AM |
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blueshift,
I, along with Craig1410 are both building R V8 locosts - both 4" wider than book.
Suggest you buy a kit:-) Much easier.
If you insist on building - I'd suggest you obtain ALL necessary running gear (get your donor dismantled - and clean/paint all parts) COMPLETE
engine/box, wheels/tyres.
Build chassis 4" wider than book (just add 4" to crosspieces. Hang engine over lower rails and build bulkhead around engine (following
book as closely as possible - engine quite long - again see my pics in archive)
You can make/modify bodywork - see pics of my nosecone/scuttle/side panels in archive).
Do use a live axle - I reckon sorting out IRS on my car added 3 months to the build - chopping this/changing that/making the other - Craig has gone de
Dion and has done a nice job, in quite a short amount of time!!
Hope this of some help - give us a shout if you want more specific suggestions.
ATB
Simon
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craig1410
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| posted on 10/6/03 at 11:43 AM |
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Simon,
Yes I've already sent blueshift a U2U telling him about our respective builds. I used U2U because I threw in a personal opinions on the relative
merits of BEC's and V8C's and didn't want this thread to become another lengthy debate...
Btw, it doesn't seem like I built my de-dion quickly but I suppose it wasn't too bad. I'd agree with you that live axle is best for
a first build though unless you are lucky like I was and stumble across a de-dion kit which basically fits in exactly the same way as a live axle. I
could convert easily if my de-dion doesn't work very well. The Cortina back axle is best bet or a Capri but it is a bit narrower and won't
fill the arches properly on a +4" chassis.
Footwell space will be an issue if you don't widen the car and seating will be a problem too due to the potentially wider tunnel. Seating is a
bit tight even with a narrow tunnel tbh. There are lots of people building +4" wider chassis so I expect parts such as nosecones, roll bars,
scuttles etc to become more widely available. If I was to do it all again I might be tempted to add 2 inches to the height of the chassis too because
the RV8 will sit a bit too high otherwise. Speak to Simon and myself when/if you get to the stage of engine positioning because we'll be able to
help you out there quite a bit.
HTH,
Craig.
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blueshift
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| posted on 10/6/03 at 05:05 PM |
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Ah, thanks chaps. I did look briefly at the idea of IRS but it looks tricky. I was planning to look around for a capri axle with LSD, really want an
LSD if possible.. local roads and car parks have entirely too few rubber strips laid down on them. (kidding)
not really looked into the de dion thing, don't see a huge advantage over live axle given the added complexity and "scary deviation from
book" factor.
and what's this about a kit? that's hardly in the spirit of the thing is it? I have a welder and I'm not afraid to use it, no more
talk of kits thank you very much.
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Stu16v
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| posted on 10/6/03 at 09:40 PM |
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Blueshift, I've used a dedion axle setup on my car (I think I may be the guilty party in swaying Craig a few months ago...) and IMO it is
ideally suited to cars with big power. I managed to persuade Dax to make me one of their axles minus their suspension bracketry. I then made the
relevent brackets to fit to car as per book, using Sierra LSD, shafts, disc brakes etc. The amount of traction even in the wet is fantastic, alomsat
to the point of being too good (very hard work to hang the back out....off road of course). Basically, it is the best of both worlds, and keeps the
wheels parallel to the ground like a live axle, and without the unsprung weight penalty. But it would be quite difficult to make accurately, obviously
you havent the facility to adjust camber and toe settings, so any discrepancy is there for life, hence the reason I went to Dax for mine.
HTH Stu.
Dont just build it.....make it!
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craig1410
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| posted on 10/6/03 at 11:21 PM |
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Yes Stu you were the reason I went for de-dion although Dax wouldn't supply me the kit initially then when I pressed them they just priced it
out of reach and put a longish lead time on it. Everyone who uses de-dion says it is the business and especially for traction reasons. The beauty of
it for me is the fact that it DOESN'T require any significant changes to the book chassis! I had to because the de-dion axle I got was too
narrow for my application.
Blueshift, when I said it was a kit I was certainly using the term very loosly...
Basically I got a piece of bent tubing for the de-dion axle bit which was actually 4 inches too short for my application. I also got a pair of
"ears" to go on the end of the de-dion axle but these were not machined correctly for the disc braked model and had to be modified very
accurately. I then had to take a large (115mm dia) 3mm thick piece of tubing and cut it in two before welding it to the inside of the
"ears" in EXACTLY the right place bearing in mind the desired track width, toe-in, camber and rotational alignment. I also had to weld
10mm thick metal plates to the ends of this large tube onto which the Sierra hub carriers can bolt....................I'm sure I've missed
a step here......anyway you get the picture! It's a bit like saying that a Locost is an airfix kit! 
Bear in mind my comments about the Capri track width not being as wide as the Cortina. The figures I found suggest that the Escort is 52", the
Capri is just over 54" and the Cortina is 56". I've set my track to 57.8" which is the same as the Sierra. Check this for
yourself if you like but with a +4" chassis you will need narrower arches to avoid not filling them properly and may have problems with the
wheels fouling the chassis or trailing arms.
BTW Stu, I have welded my de-dion axle together to give me 1 degree of negative camber and 2mm of toe-in to improve stability. I built a little jig to
hold it all together and then used hacksaw blades which I measured with a micrometer first, to set the deviation from true to give the desired camber
and toe-in. We'll see how accurate I got it when I put it on a 4-wheel alignment jig...I look forward to that 
HTH,
Craig.
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blueshift
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| posted on 11/6/03 at 10:22 AM |
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hmm, I didn't realise the capri track was so narrow. shame.. I want an LSD but I'd rather avoid this monkeying about with de-dion setups,
especially if I have to accurately modify the bars as you have done and so on. all sounds a bit hairy. I shall have to have a think.
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craig1410
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| posted on 11/6/03 at 11:56 AM |
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Blueshift,
If you got a proper de-dion setup like the one Stu got from Dax then you wouldn't have to do anything except attach the brackets (as you will
have to do on the live axle anyway)
However, stick with a live axle is still my advice and the Cortina seems to be the best bet. Can't you just get an LSD for the Cortina live
axle?
One other thing I would say is not to worry about getting an LSD initially (as long as you CAN get one later that is) because you may well find that
you don't really need it. On loose surfaces like what Rally cars run on, it is essential but on the public road with good quality tyres and even
on a trackday it is not essential by any means. In fact, if you are driving "fast" then you shouldn't need it at all because
sideways isn't fast!
That said I would ensure that an LSD option is AVAILABLE for my chosen axle because you may just need it after all. I'm fitting a Sierra open
diff initially and will fit an LSD only if I feel that I need it.
Check out www.carfolio.com for specs including track widths.
HTH,
Craig.
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timf
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| posted on 11/6/03 at 12:01 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by craig1410
Can't you just get an LSD for the Cortina live axle?
HTH,
Craig.
the capri and cortina axle are basically the same item internally so get the lsd from a capri fitted in the cortina housing
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blueshift
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| posted on 11/6/03 at 12:05 PM |
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anyone know a ballpark cost for de-dion bits from dax?
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craig1410
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| posted on 11/6/03 at 04:50 PM |
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They quoted me something like £140 +VAT and delivery (£25) (and VAT on that too). I think it came to close to £200 all in IIRC.
The MK de-dion axle I got cost me £65 which included the bits I described earlier plus the diff with brackets, driveshafts, hubs, hub carriers and
brake discs. Okay so I had to weld it together but that's all part of Locost motoring isn't it?
If you do approach Dax then they will probably tell you that they can't supply the de-dion tube on its own. Either tell them that you bought a
2ns hand Dax Rush and are repairing some minor accident damage or tell them that they sold one to Stu16v in the past and he recommended them...
Personally I think they are too expensive. They didn't charge Stu as much (£120 I think he said) so I guess they don't really want to get
in the habit of selling "Bits"
HTH,
Craig.
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blueshift
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| posted on 11/6/03 at 10:26 PM |
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hmm. still, 200 quid wouldn't break the bank. I have a website job coming my way for a bit of cash in hand, and I'm splitting the costs
with my co-builder.. what else am I going to spend my money on?
perhaps I should try and avoid the temptation of women for a while longer.. high running costs :/
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craig1410
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| posted on 12/6/03 at 12:04 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by blueshift
what else am I going to spend my money on?
You'll soon find that out when you start buying bits for the build...
Craig.
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mranlet
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| posted on 13/6/03 at 07:02 PM |
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Does this motor have 3 mounts (1 on trans)?
If you were interested, you could use the engine block as a stress member for the frame, much the same way that a lot of sportbikes are built. A
friend of mine built a car with a Dodge V-10, and shaved down the underside of the Valve covers in order to make room for flanges that connected the
front suspension frame/mounting bracket to the front of the motor and to the forward side of the mounts. From there, the rest of the frame was
connected to the aft side of the motor mounts and to the trans mount and the rear 2 bolt downs for the valve covers. This made a nice triangular
connection to the rear of the motor with 5 strong bolt points and an ultra-rigid front section for the suspension.
What was even better is that if he needed to work on the engine, he could jack it up by the bottom of the bell housing and remove the entire front end
(suspension and all). Having no frame members that impeade along the sides of the motor also allowed an ultra-free-flowing exhaust and he is planning
to add twin turbochargers to the mix.
The only way that I could visualize it for you is with this rendering of a TVR 12--the red lines are where his frame members approximately went, sorry
for the inability to determine 3 dimensions from this crappy sketch, but I hope it helps a little to visualize it.
(the pic is from www.pistonheads.com)
-MR
 
Rescued attachment engine-07.jpg
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craig1410
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| posted on 13/6/03 at 07:50 PM |
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Hi,
Yes the RV8 has one mount either side of the block (nearer the front than the back) and one mounting cradle at the back which actually uses two rubber
mounts but they are quite close together so I only count them as one.
The Rover V8 is an alloy block, do you still think this would be suitable as a stressed member? I thought of this a little while back but I was
worried about the stresses of the suspension distorting the block in some way and thus causing a major failure. Doesn't the block need to be
designed from the outset to be a stressed member?
I love the TVR Speed 12 pic!!!
Have you ever heard these things, it sounds amazing. I saw one on the Jeremy Clarkson program a while back and the sound is totally awesome.
I'll try to dig out an MPEG which I think I recorded from it and post a link for those who love the sound of a real engine!!
Cheers,
Craig.
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mranlet
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| posted on 13/6/03 at 08:02 PM |
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hmmn.... I'd call up rover and ask them if this could be done. I know the truck block that my friend used is completely over-engineered and
has no problem (the only stress that it is absorbing is it's own weight plus a nominal addition). I would think that it would work fine, as any
deformity that could possible occur would be in the mounts themselves and perhaps ever so slightly in the coolant veins, with the metal inside being
hot enough that it would disperse stresses evenly and without deformity....
It would be good to call and find out though
As for the Speed 12... words cannot describe... It's the wet dream of lightweight, high-power car builders (also known as
"Frankensteiners". www.racingflix.com used to have some clips, one of which was a 3-series/Speed 12 battle (in which the 3-series was
used as the benchmark of performance cars) on a 400m strip and a road course, where the 12 obliterated the BMW... you oughta check out the Marcos
Mantaray (LM 400 - IIRC). Theres also some incredable Nissan Silvias from Japan that put out 5 or 600 hp from 4 cylinders...
-MR
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craig1410
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| posted on 13/6/03 at 09:16 PM |
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I'm not sure that Rover would be of much help these days with such a question. Perhaps one of the tuner's such as RPi or Real Steel might
be more help.
Well I found my clips of the speed 12 in action. The video clip is only 1 or 2 minutes but is 14MB. It's encoded in DivX version 5 which you can
get from www.divx.com if you need it. I have also saved the sound as an mp3 which is about 1MB in case you just want the noise. It counds like a Le
Mans car when it zooms past...
Here are the links:
http://www.craig.chamberlain.name/locost/assets/Speed12.mp3
http://www.craig.chamberlain.name/locost/assets/Speed12.avi
Enjoy!!
Craig.
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