samwilliams
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 12:22 PM |
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My starter motor fell off!
My sylva phoenix has been very uncooperative of late and, just to add to the fun, the starter motor fell off yesterday. I guess some of the bolts must
have come out before, but I tried to start the car, it didn't work, had a look, and it was sitting there hanging out! I managed to get it
started in order to get home by using one bolt I managed to find (possibly foolish, but it's done now), which didn't sound very healthy,
but got it started. This fell out on the way home as well.
I've got a couple of questions hopefully you may be able to help me with. It appears that two of the bolts thread into the bellhousing, while
the other one goes straight through to a nut. Does this sound right, and what thread do the two need? Also, could it be possible that I've
buggered up my flywheel? I've got a spare starter motor, so I can try that as well. If neither work, is that likely?
Sorry if either of those questions are stupid!
Thanks
Sam
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Humbug
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 12:25 PM |
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Depends on the exact setup, I guess. I have a 3-bolt starter fixed using only 2 bolts becase the third one is inaccessible (Type 9 to Rover K series
bellhousing). I just used threadlock and have had no problems, touch wood!
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nitram38
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 12:27 PM |
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If the threads are ok, I would use loctite and a spring washer on your bolts.
If the threads are sh*gged but have no cracks, then the best option is helicoils.
This is best left to someone who knows what they are doing, plus they will need some room to work, so you might have to take a few bits off!
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jamesbond007ltk
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 12:51 PM |
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I had this happen on my Pinto+type 9. Starter fell off whilst driving along, at night. First thing i noticed was lights dimming and then sparks from
under car! Then burning wire smell!
Turned out terminal on rear of starter had shorted onto chassis (it is now insulated to a far higher standard than before). Burning wire was chassis
earth strap.
Think I got off pretty lightly to be honest! Lesson learnt regarding dodgy insulation of starter terminal.
Anyway, point is starter is now held on with three bolts as normal but with loctite. Many hard miles later and no further problems.
Rich
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samwilliams
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 12:58 PM |
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thanks for the replies. Any suggestion on exactly what bolts I'll need?
Also, in terms of whether I've done any other damage at all, is there any easy way to check, or is it simply a case of fixing the starter motor
and then seeing if it still doesn't work?!
(it was driving along fine after I managed to get it started using one bolt)
[Edited on 23/7/07 by samwilliams]
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samwilliams
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 02:27 PM |
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I've managed to get the starter motor on securely (not with a permanent solution, but enough to check if it's still working at all).
Sadly, it does not.
While it was off, I took a picture inside which seems to me to be ok (now in my photo bit). However, the starter motor basically makes a grinding
noise when the ignition is turned. Any ideas?!
Thanks
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cadebytiger
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 03:46 PM |
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do you have any unusual vibrations?
The reason i ask is that my start fell off (pinto/type9) and it was caused by a rotational vibration coming from the prop shaft which turned out to be
too short!
The central UJ what doing sillybuggers and would make noise at about 70ish.
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samwilliams
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 04:02 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by cadebytiger
do you have any unusual vibrations?
The reason i ask is that my start fell off (pinto/type9) and it was caused by a rotational vibration coming from the prop shaft which turned out to be
too short!
The central UJ what doing sillybuggers and would make noise at about 70ish.
No, other than this, everything seems to be fine. Can't quite work out whats wrong at the moment, as from the picture the flywheel looked ok (I
think - not 100% sure, but it looked ok to me), yet even then with a new starter motor on pretty much properly, it makes a nasty noise that it never
made before and won't turn the engine.
I'm a little stuck!
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Peteff
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 04:43 PM |
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Turn the engine over with a spanner on the crank pulley nut and try it in another spot if the pinion is alright on your starter.
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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samwilliams
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 05:25 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Peteff
Turn the engine over with a spanner on the crank pulley nut and try it in another spot if the pinion is alright on your starter.
I've just tried that, but no difference. It turns the engine over a tiny bit sometimes, but not properly.
Would there be any benefit to taking the starter motor off in order to look at the flywheel while turning the engine completely, to check that it
looks ok the whole way round?
[Edited on 23/7/07 by samwilliams]
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rusty nuts
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 05:48 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by samwilliams
quote:
Originally posted by Peteff
Turn the engine over with a spanner on the crank pulley nut and try it in another spot if the pinion is alright on your starter.
I've just tried that, but no difference. It turns the engine over a tiny bit sometimes, but not properly.
Would there be any benefit to taking the starter motor off in order to look at the flywheel while turning the engine completely, to check that it
looks ok the whole way round?
[Edited on 23/7/07 by samwilliams]
Would be a good idea to check all the teeth on the flywheel . Seem to remember starters coming loose on x flow engines was fairly common , if that
is what you are using. Count the number of teeth on the pinion as well
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britishtrident
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 07:52 PM |
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Bet you haven't got the shim plate fitted between the engine and bellhousing.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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samwilliams
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 08:06 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
Bet you haven't got the shim plate fitted between the engine and bellhousing.
Should there be one with a crossflow? If so, you might well be right, as it could have fallen off completely when the starter motor did.
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 08:31 PM |
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Hadn't realised it was a crossflow...
Rattling around under the car might have damaged the pinion and/or the spiral it runs upon. Check that you can spin the pinion back towards the motor
by hand - it's on a spiral thread, so as you twist it should go back. If the pinion's stuck, all you'll get is a loud electric
motor whirr and the engine won't be spun over.
I know you've tried a spare starter - but this was such a common problem with inertia starters, your spare might also have a stuck pinion! They
only work if they're in reasonably good condition, and it doesn't take much to confuse them (been there, done that).
A quick way to check is to get the starter out and try it on the bench - clamp it TIGHT using a workmate, clamps, or whatever, as these starters can
recoil with some force. Then connect up jump leads (batt negative clipped to casing, positive touched to the connector) and give it a spin. If all
is well it should spin vigorously, and the pinion should be seen to turn, and fly back towards the casing. Don't overdo this testing, as
it's hard on the battery, jump leads and the starter!
If you do this test then at least you'll have eliminated it from your investigations.
If all is well, then it's time to look at the ring gear on the flywheel...
As for the shim plate - it won't fall off unless the engine is completely unbolted from the bellhousing - it's a cover that stops muck
flying up from the road. If you reach under the car, you'll see where the bottom of the bellhousing meets the back of the engine - if
you've got the shim you'll see that there's a sheet metal cover over the gap. If you can get your fingers in, there's no shim.
I doubt if this is significant at the moment, as it used to work for you. It's best to have the shim, but it will sort-of work without it.
HTH,
David
[Edited on 23/7/07 by David Jenkins]
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samwilliams
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 09:15 PM |
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Both starter motors seemed to be ok (well, the pinion wasn't stuck). The engine certainly hasn't come away - other than starting, the car
seemed to be running fine.
Will have a look at the flywheel tomorrow.
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 24/7/07 at 08:03 AM |
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OK - not the starter itself. 
Had another wild thought... are you absolutely sure that the electrical connections are still intact?
That the starter itself has a really clean connection to the block/gearbox?
That the starter lead is 100% intact, and has a good and tight connection?
If the connections aren't as good as they should be, you can get enough current for the starter to attempt to kick the engine over, but not
enough to do it properly. That would make an unpleasant noise!
As I said, this is just a case of considering all options, before you have to pull the engine & gearbox out...
HTH,
David
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britishtrident
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| posted on 24/7/07 at 01:06 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by samwilliams
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
Bet you haven't got the shim plate fitted between the engine and bellhousing.
Should there be one with a crossflow? If so, you might well be right, as it could have fallen off completely when the starter motor did.
The shim plate locates the starter accurately Xflo MUST have the shim plate or you get all sorts of trouble -- jammed starters, chewed Bendix
pinions, starters falling off.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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samwilliams
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| posted on 24/7/07 at 03:32 PM |
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Been looking some more. Checked the flywheel the whole way round, and it all looks the same, which appears to be fine to me. There is, I believe, a
shim plate on already (I didn't really know what it is, but there's certainly a thin sheet of metal there which i presume is it).
I'm fairly sure that the connections are good, but will clean them up to make sure.
However, I still haven't got perfect bolts for the job. Got a couple which I thought were good enough just to get it started to get somewhere to
get better ones, but maybe not. The problem is that I don't know what size and thread I need. Can anyone help me with that?
Unfortunately I don't have a load to try out to work it out, and can't get the car started in order to get it somewhere that might! At
least then I'll be able to completely eliminate that, and be able to go back to having no idea whatsoever!
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rusty nuts
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| posted on 24/7/07 at 05:00 PM |
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What gearbox/bellhousing do you have ? it may make a difference to what bolts you need.
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samwilliams
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| posted on 24/7/07 at 05:28 PM |
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It's fixed! At this point, I should shut up and walk back to my corner, as the solution is fairly embarassing.
Managed to get hold of the right bolts (someone suggested taking one of the ones attaching the engine to the bellhousing, and getting some that
matched up - that worked). Previously, when I'd been attaching it, I'd only been bothering with two of the bolts, because the third was
very awkward to get to and I figured that it wouldn't make a significant difference in the short term. Well, as I now had bolts that fitted
properly, I decided to do all three. As i got to the awkward one, i got a little confused. It didn't seem to line up quite right.
Oops!
It turns out that starter motors don't work very effectively when they're not the right way round! I suppose that the whole time I'd
been trying to attach it 90 degrees out which, while attaching nice and snugly from the two bolts i was using, was, quite frankly, wrong.
It is now working.
Thanks for all your help, and I'll try and be a little less stupid next time!!
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