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Austin Seven Special gets a rack and pinion steering
theprisioner - 11/11/19 at 08:05 PM

Having lots f fun upgrading my Austin seven Special to have better steering. I have recently upgraded the engine, suspension and brakes. The car is capable of 70 Mph only I am not brave enough to take it above 60mph as it still has the original steering. See how I have adapted a Hilman Imp R&P to fit an Austin Seven.

Video LinkVideo Link

Mr Whippy - 12/11/19 at 12:45 PM

hmm I'd have thought such a mod would have knocked quite a bit off the value, could you not have just got the steering box refurbished etc?

Currently saving up for a Ruby myself, may take a few years tbh

v8kid - 12/11/19 at 04:30 PM

How does that work with a beam axle? Surely there will be horrendous bump steer?

Cheers

v8kid - 13/11/19 at 12:35 PM

Might work OK if the beam axle was converted to swing axle I believe is was a popular mod back in the day and it would be similar to the imp suspension ( in broad principle)

Fred W B - 14/11/19 at 06:07 AM

I've seen a project where the builder mounted the rack on the axle to get around the bump steer problem. Obviously the steering column then needs suitable joints to accommodate the articulation and plunge.

[Edited on 14/11/19 by Fred W B]

John P - 14/11/19 at 05:19 PM

Not sure how I feel about this sort of conversion.

I have an Austin 7 Ulster Replica which was built up from parts and, whilst not an original car, and with some later parts it is, never the less, all Austin 7 and gives you a feel of what racing an Austin back in the 1920's / 1930's would have been like.

There does seem to be a trend towards modernising these type of cars with modern starter motors, gearboxes from more modern vehicles and even programmable electronic ignition.

For me the whole point of having a vintage car is to preserve a piece of motoring history so people can both see and experience how much things have changed and also how much remains remarkably similar even after 90-years.

I can see using modern components if it is the only way to keep a car on the road or for reasons of safety but otherwise you may as well build a kit car such as a Locost where the challenge is more to do with the engineering and achieving maximum performance and handling using your own skills.

Anyway, that's just my viewpoint.

John.

v8kid - 15/11/19 at 09:25 AM

IIRC the OP actively races this vehicle and it is in the competitive nature of things to improve.

Better than it sitting in a garage unused in my also humble opinion.

Cheers

Mr Whippy - 15/11/19 at 12:16 PM

Well off course it's very much up to the owner what level of originality they wish to maintain the car at and going above 60 mph in one sounds scary enough to justify improving such an important thing as the steering, if only not to write the car off in a wreck (while probably dying in the process).

When modifying such things though, personally I'd always do in such a fashion that it can be returned to the original setup in the future, i.e. not cutting off or welding parts to the chassis, instead bolting to existing mountings and storing everything that was removed.

I look at ownership of these kind of cars as more being the current custodian in a long line of owners who hopefully the car will outlive but that doesn't mean you can't have fun in the process

v8kid - 15/11/19 at 06:00 PM

Oh come on it’s just a lump of mass produced metal. There are thousands still in existence.

So if you buy an Ikea cupboard do I have any right whatsoever to pontificate about what you can or can not do with it?

Indeed if I went to Sky and burnt a million pounds it would be applauded by the millennial liberal elite as a as a seminal artistic statement so what’s the difference?

Hold on I can feel a rant struggling to get out here better go and get my supper before it’s too late 😁

Cheers

Sam_68 - 15/11/19 at 09:37 PM

quote:
Originally posted by v8kid
So if you buy an Ikea cupboard do I have any right whatsoever to pontificate about what you can or can not do with it?

By the time it reaches the age and level of historic importance of even an Austin Seven, yes you do.

The equivalent in building terms would have been 'Listed', and you'd need to make a written application to the authorities, assessed by a historic buildings specialist, who would certainly insists that you preserve such original features.

I tend toward John P/Mr Whippy's side of the argument.

Objectively, Austin Sevens are crap. Compared to any modern car, their performance is dismal. If you want to go fast, or be safe, or be reliable, buy or build something modern and mod it as much as you like. If you want to race it in historic classes, then by all means apply period modifications, but otherwise, enjoy it for what it is.

v8kid - 15/11/19 at 11:20 PM

So what are you proposing to do with this load of tat nobody wants to use/live in?

There are listed buildings crumbling all over the country because they are not fit for purpose and yet planners who will not put their money where they’re mouths are prevent them being returned to use. It’s just self aggrandisement at others expense.

Nobody would describe Ikea furniture as other than complete tat designed for a very limited lifespan and yet it appears to be acceptable to consider preserving this edifice to consumerism - I think not😂

WRT the OP he is actually using the vehicle and giving enjoyment to himself and the spectators so why not. If you want to see a historical record go to a museum there are literally hundreds preserved for just that purpose.

Why in the name of goodness should we presume that we have any right whatsoever to dictate how another person should use his property is beyond me. Come to think of it it’s not I used to work in a university and this form of self entitlement is encouraged by the politically biased higher education system.

Told you I could feel a rant coming on didn’t I ?

All in good fun

David

HowardB - 16/11/19 at 12:07 AM

I feel there is a place for both camps on this - not so much fence sitting but genuinely keen to see both survive.
Dad has a 28 top hat, one of very few in the country,. the plan is to get it back on the road, it will never be concourse, but then it has been driven many thousands of miles and was used on farms in NZ as well as to drive round europe.
On the other hand there are some amazing developments and work done on these cars, almost from the day they came out of the factory,... development then and development now.

The worst thing that can happen is they end up in a glass case in a museum with a fine layer of dust resting on them,...

Sam_68 - 16/11/19 at 12:26 AM

quote:
Originally posted by v8kid
So what are you proposing to do with this load of tat nobody wants to use/live in?

There are listed buildings crumbling all over the country because they are not fit for purpose and yet planners who will not put their money where they’re mouths are prevent them being returned to use. It’s just self aggrandisement at others expense.


If you want me to give you a lecture on built heritage, the Planning system and the maintenance and rehabilitation of historic buildings, I am happy to do so. Speaking as someone who runs a Chartered Planning Consultancy and Chartered Architects practice, and who spent many years as the custodian of a Grade II listed cottage (by Ernest Gimson, though I doubt the name will mean anything to you), it's a subject I have both personal and professional experience of.

Suffice it to say that the comments you have made above are so far off the mark that it's comical. It's far from perfect (what is?), but on balance, the system saves and preserves vastly more buildings than it harms and IMO we would do well to adopt something similar to the Listed building system for the protection of heritage engineering assets, too...

....And if you have no interest in preservation of historic assets, you should buy neither a Listed building or a 90 year old vintage car. They are best left to those willing to treat them more responsibly.

quote:
Originally posted by HowardB
The worst thing that can happen is they end up in a glass case in a museum with a fine layer of dust resting on them,...


No, the worst thing that can happen is that they are destroyed altogether.

The next worst thing that can happen is that they are butchered to the point where they lose all historic value, character and meaning.

Being preserved in a museum where future generations can learn from them and be inspired by them is actually quite a long way from the worst that can happen to them.

sdh2903 - 16/11/19 at 09:18 AM

It's a car. It was designed to be a car. Intended to be a car. And is still being used as a car. The op is adapting it to make it a bit better at being a car. Hes hardly sticking a fake carbon spoiler on it. Jeez it's his car he can do what the hell he wants.

Well done to the prisoner for rebuilding your car and using it to the max rather than sitting In the back of a barn or a museum. Bravo.

Sam_68 - 16/11/19 at 09:57 AM

quote:
Originally posted by sdh2903
Jeez it's his car he can do what the hell he wants.


Which is precisely the attitude that led to the introduction of the Planning system for buildings (and with it the Listed Buildings and Conservation Areas Act).

The problem is, just because someone has sufficient money to buy a heritage asset - of any sort - doesn't always mean that they have sufficient understanding and appreciation of it to act in the best interests of its preservation and maintenance.

There is a balance to be had, of course, between the rights and needs of the owner, and the heritage value to society at large, which the Planning system at least attempts to get right for buildings. There is currently nothing at all for engineering heritage assets, which given this country's history as a leader in the industrial revolution and engineering in general might be considered at least as important to future generations as our buildings.

sdh2903 - 16/11/19 at 11:05 AM

But this isn't a building. It's a CAR. An austin 7. Not a super rare exotic. If your hell bent on building analysis. It's like fitting loft insulation in a 2 up 2 down.

Even listed buildings are allowed to be 'modified' and improved are they not?

Cant believe the post the other day on the foose e type didnt bring such emotive responses. Considering the e type is such a design icon.

Sam_68 - 16/11/19 at 11:29 AM

quote:
Originally posted by sdh2903
But this isn't a building. It's a CAR.

But it's not just a car.

In fact, let's be clear, its primary importance is no longer as a 'car'. Even the most facile among us wouldn't be stupid enough to claim that it is first and foremost a means of transport to its owner, any more - it is no longer remotely practical for that purpose.

Its main importance is as a heritage asset. Same as a Listed building is. In fact, even more so, since (as v8kid points out) most historic buildings rely on some continued practical purpose for their existence, whereas, thankfully, there are responsible collectors of historic vehicles who are willing to preserve them for their heritage value alone.

If you want a CAR, even a £couple of hundred will buy you something that is better in every single way than an Austin Seven. So why not do that, and leave the Austin Seven for someone who is willing to appreciate it for what it is, rather than destroying its character and authenticity by trying to make it into something it isn't?

sdh2903 - 16/11/19 at 11:51 AM

Hes changed the steering rack ffs.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. But for me I get far more satisfaction seeing a classic car going up a hill climb or on a rally. Not gathering dust in a museum because they need to be 'preserved' and if a change of steering rack makes this more enjoyable and safe for the driver then crack on.

Cars are living breathing mechanical machines that are meant to be used. To compare to static old listed buildings is silly in my opinion.

Sam_68 - 16/11/19 at 12:24 PM

quote:
Originally posted by sdh2903
Hes changed the steering rack ffs.


And uprated the engine, suspension and brakes; the latter in a quite fundamental way.

quote:
Originally posted by sdh2903
Cars are living breathing mechanical machines that are meant to be used. To compare to static old listed buildings is silly in my opinion.


Perhaps that's because you're not into buildings? To me, buildings are 'living breathing' things that are meant to be used, too. As I said, you'll tend to find that continued and purposeful use is actually more important to ensure the survival of of an old building than it is for an old car. Very few people collect old buildings for their historic value.

Purely out of interest, what do you thing buildings are for, if not to be used?

But yes, as you say, I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

sdh2903 - 16/11/19 at 12:47 PM

Your missing the point. A car is meant to be used as a car. A building is meant to be used as a building.

It's clear your passionate about buildings which is great. But as you wish to compare everything to buildings then what's the fundamental difference between an old historic building being updated with modern insulation, wiring, plumbing, heating to make it more habitable or useable?

What your arguing is the equivalent of saying that every historic building should be kept exactly as constructed. Which is impossible. They'd all crumble and die as no one would want to live in or use them or afford their upkeep.

How many old classics are rotting away in barns and garages around the world I wonder? So for someone to take one and rebuild and use it should be applauded, not picked apart by the purist. That's what concours competitions are for.

Sam_68 - 16/11/19 at 01:27 PM

quote:
Originally posted by sdh2903
But as you wish to compare everything to buildings then what's the fundamental difference between an old historic building being updated with modern insulation, wiring, plumbing, heating to make it more habitable or useable?


None whatsoever - which is my point exactly.

There are measures in place (the requirement for Listed Building Consent) which prevent or limit such updates, where they are assessed by an expert (a Conservation Officer) as having unacceptable impact on the historic character or fabric of the building.

With buildings - despite their continued practical use being far more critical to supporting their continued existence than it is for a vintage car - there is an acceptance that substantial compromise is required to their performance and convenience, as the price to be paid for preserving their historic character.

quote:
Originally posted by sdh2903
What your arguing is the equivalent of saying that every historic building should be kept exactly as constructed. Which is impossible.


Not nearly as impossible as you think it is. As I sit here today, we're actually in the process of converting a Grade II* Listed medieval church in Wales into a dwelling. We won't be touching the fabric of the building at all. We even have exemptions from Building Regulations (at the Conservation Officer's insistence) for safety-critical items like the fire sprinkler system, because the installation was considered too invasive.

sdh2903 - 16/11/19 at 01:38 PM

Well then sam I really have no idea what your objecting to then! But if your proposing a similar style committee to discuss changing the steering rack then your bonkers.

And good look not touching those medieval electrics

Sam_68 - 16/11/19 at 02:02 PM

quote:
Originally posted by sdh2903
But if your proposing a similar style committee to discuss changing the steering rack then your bonkers.


Am I? It's not done by committee, by the way, but if it helps preserve our engineering heritage, I'm certainly not against the idea of imposing some control - perhaps as a condition of the 'Historic Vehicle' exemption on road tax.

I think it's a sad state of affairs that even the most historically significant pieces of engineering (don't get me going on the clown who currently holds Donald Campbell's Bluebird K7...) are not offered even the slightest statutory protection.

Many countries already have regulations that regulate non-type approved modifications to vehicles, and it wouldn't be difficult to extend that to non-authentic modification of historic vehicles.

sdh2903 - 16/11/19 at 02:23 PM

And there are some countries that dont allow you to build your own car, In your own garage, have it tested, and drive it on the road. Doesn't always mean we should follow suit.

Sam_68 - 16/11/19 at 02:31 PM

quote:
Originally posted by sdh2903Doesn't always mean we should follow suit.

Doesn't always mean that we shouldn't, either.

Just because someone's views don't accord with yours doesn't mean that they are 'bonkers'.... you may need to face the possibility that it is your own view that's wrong.

Out of interest: If I had sufficient money to go out and buy, let's say, all the remaining examples of Concorde, and then melt them down and make trinkets from the metal, to sell on ebay... do you think that it would be a good thing that I should have complete freedom to do so?

Unless your answer is an unequivocal 'yes', then all we're debating is the degree of control that should be imposed.

sdh2903 - 16/11/19 at 03:01 PM

Sadly sam maybe you should take your own advice. As usual when you start posting on this forum it always ends up about you.

I just hope that the OP hasn't been put off posting anymore updates for those that are genuinely interested.

Sam_68 - 16/11/19 at 04:25 PM

quote:
Originally posted by sdh2903
Sadly sam maybe you should take your own advice.

I take it that you are unable, or unwilling, to answer the question posed, then?

sdh2903 - 16/11/19 at 04:44 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by sdh2903
Sadly sam maybe you should take your own advice.

I take it that you are unable, or unwilling, to answer the question posed, then?


I just don’t see the relevance of it? And I’m at the point where I don’t want to feed the troll anymore.

phelpsa - 16/11/19 at 04:44 PM

At the end of the day there are automotive equivalents of great architectural masterpieces tucked away in museums all over the world. What Alistair is doing is more akin to tarting up an grandmas old wardrobe, its hardly of historical importance...

rusty nuts - 16/11/19 at 05:05 PM

Why are people arguing about modifying cars on what is a forum for modified cars ?

steve m - 16/11/19 at 05:37 PM

Its the OP car, and he can do what ever he likes, even spray it Lgbt colours, or day glow pink as neither was an option in the 1930's if he wants, even fit 300 mm disk brakes, as the "7" rod brakes were CRAP

As im sure that will also offend some snowflake on here

This thread has turned its ugly head, yet again, because one snowflake has a non qualified objection, to something that has nothing what so ever to do with him, so please just register your opinion, and move on

What was said above, we as a collective on here have done some serious damage to an awful lot of "classic cars" yet I haven't heard to many complain to much

If, and a very big IF, someone was to notice a design flaw, that could result in an injury, then I do believe any comments made would be appreciated,

But I do wonder why the one kicking up ll the stink, is perfectly accepting the Reliant Kitten destruction ??? as I would put money down, that theres an awful lot more Austin 7 around compared to Reliant Kittens (4 wheel variarty)

steve

[Edited on 16/11/19 by steve m]

v8kid - 16/11/19 at 07:42 PM

Good old Sam I love it when a semi-rant pays dividends.

BTW who the F--- is Ernest Gimson is it a new song by Smokie and more to the point who on a car forum cares?

Cheers

John Bonnett - 17/11/19 at 09:05 PM

The Hillman Imp steering rack has the track rod end emerging from the centre rather than the ends as on most steering racks and this makes it ideal for fitting to an Austin Seven. It has been done and fits so unobtrusively behind the number plate it is unlikely to be noticed by most people. In fact had I continued with my plans for the Austin Special that was what I was going to do.






[Edited on 17/11/19 by John Bonnett]

v8kid - 18/11/19 at 09:12 AM

Yup we get that but I still think there will be bump steer I guess the question is will the bump steer be less than the original or will the reduction in slop offset this.

It would be really interesting to hear from someone who had done this to give us a before and after narrative

Cheers

v8kid - 18/11/19 at 09:15 AM

Btw John what happened to your 7? You say you did not continue with your plans

John Bonnett - 18/11/19 at 11:01 AM

quote:
Originally posted by v8kid
Btw John what happened to your 7? You say you did not continue with your plans




I realised that I couldn't fund the project. We all know about the Triumph TR "Tax" where parts are exorbitantly expensive compared with the same parts for Spitfires for example and the same is pretty much true with Austin Sevens. The cost of building a decent engine and gearbox was just too much as well as other parts so I decided to move the bits on that I had accumulated and take on a more modest and affordable project. This is why I have embarked on the Reliant Kitten which I am writing up in the Projects section. It is in early stages yet having started on the chassis repairs but once I have a sound frame I can get on to the interesting bits. My current plans are to build a completely new estate car body in aluminium supported by a steel frame. I am working within the DVLA guidelines using the 8 point rule to retain the donor vehicle identity and avoid IVA.

Mr Whippy - 18/11/19 at 12:17 PM

John,

I think your solution with the steering rack is very good and as for bump steer it shouldn't be any worse than the steering box

Car looks great btw



[Edited on 18/11/19 by Mr Whippy]

John Bonnett - 18/11/19 at 01:37 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
John,

I think your solution with the steering rack is very good and as for bump steer it shouldn't be any worse than the steering box

Car looks great btw



[Edited on 18/11/19 by Mr Whippy]


Errh, no that's not my car. It is beautifully engineered and the owner very kindly let me have photos of his set-up for me to copy.

v8kid - 18/11/19 at 06:38 PM

Yikes ! I just checked out your Kitten build you've got a big heart taking that on.

I think I will continue lusting after a 7 to tinker with.

Cheers

theprisioner - 19/11/19 at 03:51 PM

I thought, as owner of the car, I would make some comments. The car was bought as an unfinished project 5 years ago. In fact it was a pile of boxes in a garage in Ardrie. It was originally an Austin Ruby from 1937 (I believe), at least that is what most of the bits are from. It has a Super Accessories Body from the 1950's in original condition (not very good) I took about 2 years to put it all together, the plans of how the body fits the chassis etc were a pure invention of mine.

I then ran it for about a year trying to get some sort of reliable car out of it and I even took it up Bealach na Ba as a challenge. The car had very little brakes, very poor performance, and vague steering that was almost lethal, in fact it was the most hair raising motoring experience of my life.

After returning from the Highlands I decided to sell the car before it killed me. Later I thought what would it take to make it into a competitive hill climb car and anyway I needed a project.

Answer - lots of money and time......

1) The Engine was totally upgraded to 3x the original power output with all the usual upgrades
2) A racing gearbox was obtained
3) Hydraulic twin circuit, twin leading shoe brakes were added (that was a challenge)
4) The Bowden independent suspension was upgraded (upper wishbones added) and the rear had a panhard rod installed
5) Electronic ignition to cope with revs of 6000rpm

The car achieved 5th place in it's class at the Bo'ness Revival hill climb this year

My target is now to improve my place on the leader board next year, so the rack and pinion project was born.

Now the purists have a valid point, but if I followed their advice I would not have had near as much fun in fact I would have sold the car by now. What do you think?


Bo'ness Revival video

David Jenkins - 19/11/19 at 04:16 PM

quote:
Originally posted by theprisioner
Now the purists have a valid point, but if I followed their advice I would not have had near as much fun in fact I would have sold the car by now. What do you think?


If the changes can easily be reversed then I can't see that there's anything to complain about...

theprisioner - 19/11/19 at 06:20 PM

The changes can be listed some resorable many not, then it is a hill climb car, it featured in the Austin Seven owners cub mag this year, wonder what they thought of it.

1) Super Accessories Body from 1950;s, not very likely as I modified the chassis at the rear to accommodate
2) Tuned Engine, I am sure that someone will want less power???
3) Racing Gearbox, substitute one that will not change 1-2nd sometimes particularly when hot.
4) 1950's Bowden independent suspension, that can be changed back with a beam axel
5) IMP Steering yes that can be changed back to worm and peg with 1/4" turn free play
6) Rear panhard rod, yes that can be removed and take corners very carefully
7) Dual cct Hydraulic brakes can be removed for the suicidal
8) Go back to points distributor
9) Various cooling mods to use a modern radiator core and increased power can be reversed
10) Roll over protection and seat belts for hill climbs
11) Racing seats (welded alloy vintage type of course)

mark chandler - 19/11/19 at 09:53 PM

Cars that disappear into museums become artefacts so have lost purpose unless it's to show how we used to do things, something extremely rare you can make the case for, not a mass produced 7

I know one person who raced and sprinted his Austin 7, he found it very frustrating how the old guard become so protective about changes which if the technology had been freely available at the time would have been deployed. Now races a prewar MG

There are plenty out there, develop an enjoy

[Edited on 19/11/19 by mark chandler]

David Jenkins - 19/11/19 at 10:07 PM

BTW: I wasn't trying to suggest that what you've done is only OK if it's reversible - there are lots of specials built around this car, and they're all individual.

As said above - if the old-timers had access to the same parts they would also have used them.

Sam_68 - 20/11/19 at 12:25 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
I think your solution with the steering rack is very good and as for bump steer it shouldn't be any worse than the steering box


If you get the geometry right with a steering box and drag link, you can achieve zero bump-steer with that set up... it can be geometrically as near perfect as makes no difference and it remains authentic to the technology available in period.

I know of no way that you can overcome bump steer with a rack and pinion on a beam axle, even one with central take-offs for the track rods, except mounting the rack directly to the axle (which has its own shortcoming of increasing the unsprung weight).

If you're going to adopt the Imp rack, the sensible thing to do is to also implement a Ballamy-style split-axle IFS (swing axle) arrangement, which the Imp rack was specifically designed for.

On the matter of "it's only a Seven... there are loads of them": records appear to suggest that there are about 2,300 left on the road, out of an original production of 290,000. That's slightly less than 0.8%, and a great many of those will have been heavily modifed, too. Mechanically original Austin Sevens are no longer commonplace, so the further damage of any individual car remains a cause for concern and regret.

JimSpencer - 20/11/19 at 08:11 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
so the further damage of any individual car remains a cause for concern and regret.


Not to the majority of us on here... But you are, of course, entitled to your opinion.

Personally I think it's great.. it's continuing the tradition of Austin 7 specials, the creators of which basically formed the 750MC, that can be generally considered to be the most influential club in the development of what the UK Motorsport Industry has become..

But each to their own etc etc

Sam_68 - 20/11/19 at 12:27 PM

quote:
Originally posted by JimSpencer
Personally I think it's great.. it's continuing the tradition of Austin 7 specials, the creators of which basically formed the 750MC, that can be generally considered to be the most influential club in the development of what the UK Motorsport Industry has become...

Well, of course the traditions of the 750MC are admirably continued... by the 750MC.

...Who agree with me: their class for historic Austin Seven specials requires that you retain "An Austin Seven steering wheel/contemporary equivalent, Austin Seven steering box or reproduction copy and column..." (or other pre 1939 steering box).

For what it's worth, creating an Austin Seven Special that unnecessarily excludes itself from the relevant 750MC class, and limits you to hillclimbing, seems pretty silly to me, too, but as you say, each to their own.

sdh2903 - 20/11/19 at 12:56 PM

I wonder what percentage of mk1/2 escorts are left. Or the humble sierra. Or the mk1 mx5 or the midget or the Ah Sprite that have all succumbed to being donor vehicles to feed this industry? All of which (apart from the sierra maybe) have some historical value. Even the humble mx5 will be a future classic (in mk1 guise).

I think most can understand where you're coming from sam, even me, but do you not think it's a touch hypocritical on a site that has these values ingrained into it's very existence?

I'm still of the viewpoint it's better in Alastairs hands being used in anger in whatever modified state than rotting away in boxes in the back of someone's shed.

[Edited on 20/11/19 by sdh2903]