...exists and we are able to moderate our own discussions more or less.

Jeez, I rarely get in trouble on the forums...

There was me thinking that I would answer a question on a hifi forum about biamping.

Heres the link:
http://community.whathifi.com/forums/2/574564/ShowThread.aspx

I posted a link in my original reply which was this one:
http://forum.blu-ray.com/speakers/56058-bi-amping-bi-wiring-research-material.html

Which obviously as its based on science rather than hifi myth got edited out with no reason given. I cant even find in the AUP where that says I cant link to other sites. I questioned why the link had been removed and you can see what happened to my post. So then I copied and quoted the key bits from the link above and had that removed again. So posted again putting it in my own words and suggested that if anyone would like to learn more about the superposition principle and how it applies to hifi that they should google 'superposition principle biamping' and have a read for themselves and make their own mind up. That bit of my post was then removed. So I have put it in my last post on the topic as well, see if it goes again.

Its a pet hate of mine that theres this perpetuated myth that we should spend twice as much on cables and amps because it makes a difference, when scientifically it cant and doesnt. Active biamping is a different beast, but impossible with 99% of hifi speakers.

I am a science geek and I hate to see people wasting their money on things that can't make a difference realistically. But as they have just spent £2k on cables the expectation bias is overwhelming...


Anyway, rant over. I am off to listen to some music!

A lot of people are unwilling or simply dont want to "believe" in science. If they want to spend their hard earned cash on "special" cables etc... then they can do so... I know its annoying when people simply dont see "sense"....

Its like that with a lot of things I am finding.. sometimes its better to just bite your tongue and keep the "real facts" quiet.....

Hifi geeks are a weird lot. All that crackle, hiss, jumping and scratching from old vinyl yet they seem to think it sounds better.
Don't they know that CD is the future?

Hi flack monkey, i've got an Avi pre amp + monoblocks and was thinking of buying another 2 monoblocks to biamp my speakers, are you saying this is pointless?

I think we could do with a myth breaker thread.
Here's one, you don't need a Pinto 205 block.

They are blind to the facts, due to the overwhelming desire to maintain the justification for spending the money they have for no benefit.

moderating an external link XD Well you have to really, it's one step away from full out anarchy, if everyone linked to other things on the net then the human race has pretty much had it

I'd love to listen to this loud on a flip hot audio system
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0XwOjSpdbc

Edit: just realised I linked to an external site, can the next moderator to view this post please punish me

[Edited on 8/2/11 by Benzine]

Now its got into horizontal and vertical biamping. The inductive load is the same irrespective if you have the speaker xover fitted. *face palm* Equally the reason people are hearing differences with the Arcam amps is they have introduced another different model of amp with inevitably different gains. Probably using the more powerful poweramp to drive the bass/mid so will hear a difference because they have *upset* the balance.

Oh well. I have threatened before, and I think I am going to do it. I am going to go into making hifi interconnects, no fancy jargon or advertising but if anyone can empiracally prove they are any better or worse than ones costing £1k+ i'll refund their money.

Its all a bit bizarre really. Some of these people could do with having their ears syringing which would improve the sound no end.

Positioning speakers makes an effect on sound, but there is no point in being anal about it all when you can sit incorrectly.

"I think we could do with a myth breaker thread.
Here's one, you don't need a Pinto 205 block."

You're right Paul, what you really need is a ZZR1400!!!

Edited to add that anyone stupid enough to believe that spending £2k on cables could make a hearable difference to Hi Fi deserves to have their money taken!!



[Edited on 8/2/11 by russbost]

I tend to find anyone who is a .....phile very easy to wind up!

a big set of speakers (mine are cerwin vega ve-12) and a good amp to run them (mines 100watts rms per channel) good enough fo me. any more than that is just getting a bit silly

want a 200watt amp now though..

I love hifi, its great fun. But I prefer to spend my money on amps and sources which do change the sound than gimmicks which dont.

Take my new pre-amp. Its a valve based one driving two solid state monoblocs. Weird combination? Yes but it sounds lovely for the sort of music I listen to. Huge soundstage, great mids and bass with nice soft, detailed treble. Everybody likes something different, it just winds me up that companies get away with shoving cables and other things on people when they make no difference.

Have a look at this:
Clicky

90% on wigwam agree cables do nothing, which I like and is why I hang about on there more than WHF. But $12k for speaker cables? Scroll down and look whats in the box of tricks and read Serges post (hes an electronics engineer) about the effect. The companies should be ashamed and it should be exposed as a scam.

Funny enough Russ Andrews has just lost a court case about the effects of his mains cables....

My favourite was when a few years ago Maplins were selling gold plated mains plugs.

If you can come up with some pseudo scientific babble you can sell £1 worth of cable for £1k - good money if you don't have any morals.

quote:

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Originally posted by flak monkey


Have a look at this:
Clicky

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from that thread....


"EDITED BY MODS - please do not discuss moderation "


you really are getting your wrists slapped there...!!!!

Gold plated plugs make everything sound better it's a proven fact We have an ancient Aiwa stack deck with two speakers and a Technics 5 disc changer stuck on top. I've worked in foundries and factories with noisy machinery all my life and rode motorbikes with no earplugs in so I have to turn everything up just to drown out the tinitus. You might be able to read the differences between different systems and configurations with sensitive audio equipment but to me it will still sound like somebody playing the drums underwater.

quote:

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Originally posted by rayward
from that thread....


"EDITED BY MODS - please do not discuss moderation "


you really are getting your wrists slapped there...!!!!

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quote:

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Originally posted by flak monkey

90% on wigwam agree cables do nothing, which I like and is why I hang about on there more than WHF. But $12k for speaker cables? Scroll down and look whats in the box of tricks and read Serges post (hes an electronics engineer) about the effect. The companies should be ashamed and it should be exposed as a scam.

what do you connect your components together with ? i think you'll find most people with nice kit will use branded hifi cables (chord qed atlas etc etc) to connect their system together, and if thats the case they've already bought into the hype, are you saying you only use patch leads and bell wire.

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lsdweb - 8/2/11 at 08:02 PM

I didn't understand a word of what was being said on that forum but it still sounds (excuse the pun) a bit over the top to moderate you for what you are saying Flak Monkey!

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flak monkey - 8/2/11 at 08:05 PM

Theres a difference between cheap freebie cables as they arent normally shielded properly or very well made for repeated connections being made and broken. Similarly with speaker cable, I only use decently thick stuff as a powerful amp will shove a lot of current down it if it can (10amps peak or more)

I buy interconnects costing between £10 and £20 to get something thats nicely made and I paid less than £5/m for my speaker cable secondhand.

But you'll find most people running the sort of system I do spending upwards of £100each on interconnects and £30/m+ on speaker cable

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Richard Quinn - 8/2/11 at 08:09 PM

But this is an everyday occurrence in almost every topic area now. It smacks a little of the Emperors new clothes really and just shows that marketing is in fact the most powerful "science" out there.

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rf900rush - 8/2/11 at 08:28 PM

HIFI BS does make me chuckle especially ICE.

Many years back I was told to use, good old mains Twin and earth for speakers.

I guess things have changed now.

Made my day when I found out my old home made speakers fitted with KEF units were still worth money.

Anyway I to deaf now.

The wifes got one for the "I need More power" guys.
And she cant lift it any more. at 24.5 Kg's

On my calculations that's a peak current of 40 amps into 4 ohms. (bridge configuration)
I wounder what cables this would need.






[Edited on 8/2/11 by rf900rush]

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scudderfish - 8/2/11 at 08:36 PM

10 amps isn't a lot. Look at the thinwall cable in your car rated higher than that

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scudderfish - 8/2/11 at 08:37 PM

BTW, I've chortled heartily in the past at gold plated plugs on optical interconnects

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balidey - 8/2/11 at 08:44 PM

quote:

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Originally posted by rf900rush
HIFI BS does make me chuckle especially ICE.

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Me too. They spend all this money and talk about sound quality, yet they go and stick all these speakers in a car with opposing flat surfaces. Best thing you can do in that situation is cover over all the insides of the windows with egg boxes.

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flak monkey - 8/2/11 at 08:52 PM

Well the boss of the WHF forum thinks I am closed minded, yet he was the one who took the link out of my original post!

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dlatch - 8/2/11 at 08:56 PM

Image deleted by owner

everyone needs a set of these babies its like have a V8

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rf900rush - 8/2/11 at 09:13 PM

Here is something for your HiFi science.
Using goldplating
Good for connectors but not for your solder joints.
So you will have a good connector to conector joint, but the wire soldered to it will not be so good.


I know someone whos works in the space industry, and has to remove gold plating when soldering components.
Otherwise it degrades the joint.


I found this LINKY explaining why.

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flak monkey - 8/2/11 at 09:27 PM

As this will likely get deleted and me banned from the WHF forum (for discussing moderation of the forum no less - we shall not question the dictator!) I'll put my last reply here:

quote:

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Andrew Everard

quote:

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If you believe passive biamping, bi-wiring, magic stones or placing your gear in a pentagram and lighting candles around it makes a difference, go for it. You wouldnt be alone, and it keeps the hifi companies in business.

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I'm not aware of any hifi companies selling chalk or candles. But then neither am I aware of anyone quite as closed-minded as you seem to be. Could you please stop the 'sword of righteousness' act, and insulting other members, and live and let live?

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quote:

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I dont believe I have insulted anyone. If I have, then I apologise. Things get taken out of context on forums all the time.

Equally I am not closed minded either - quite the opposite. If you were to meet me in person you would no doubt realise that. If someone proves to me empirically that passive biamping or biwiring makes a difference then I will start to believe it. No one has been able to yet so I will stick to saying that it doesn't as much as those people who swear that it does make a difference. All the non-anectodal evidence I can find tells me that it doesnt make a difference, scientific theory also says it cannot.

I have said several times in my posts on this thread, and others on a similar topic, that if you believe passive biamping (or anything else) makes a difference then go for it, its your money and your choice. You have just quoted one of my posts saying exactly that. I was under the impression that a forum is a place to express our views and opinons and back it up with evidence where appropriate. What the reader takes from that is down to them.

I tried to also present some of the evidence as to why I believe that it doesn't make a difference and tried to explain why, I was always told to back up any statement with references (drummed into me when writing scientific reports). So my apologies for the link that had to be removed, I am not sure which part of the 'House Rules' it contravenes however if you would like to clarify? Via PM if you wish, I dont want to upset anyone discussing moderation on a public forum.

I dont want an argument, any more than I want to get banned from the site for something as silly as a link and discussion about biamping.



Anyway. Your money, your choice. Feel free to spend it on whatever you like. And dont let my logical approach sway you towards one or the other. I'll try to keep my replies as neutral as I can from now on....

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I'll wave goodbye to my WHF forum membership about now.....

[Edited on 8/2/11 by flak monkey]

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rf900rush - 8/2/11 at 10:06 PM

I'm with you on this fourm.

Not only a place to get good help for our car's, but almost any subject can be discussed.
Here seems to have a very wide range of knowledge and skills.

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LoMoss - 8/2/11 at 10:06 PM

quote:

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Originally posted by flak monkey


Anyway, rant over. I am off to listen to some music!

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HiFi buffs dont listen to music they listen to the noise.

Moss

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flak monkey - 8/2/11 at 10:16 PM

quote:

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Originally posted by LoMoss

quote:

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Originally posted by flak monkey


Anyway, rant over. I am off to listen to some music!

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HiFi buffs dont listen to music they listen to the noise.

Moss

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So thats why I annoy them! I only listen to music I like, if it happens to be a good recording, its just a bonus and it gets turned up even more.

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flak monkey - 9/2/11 at 09:52 AM

I was right, that reply I copied above got me banned....

Despite being polite (I think?). Wasnt so much a discussion of moderation, more a polite request that he contact me by PM to explain why my relevant link was removed from my original post.

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scootz - 9/2/11 at 10:10 AM

I got kicked off the AVForums website! I had a sound-projector for sale and I... dare I whisper it... accepted an offer that came through via U2U!!!

Well, they didn't kick me off straight away... I was only banned for a month for my transgression... it was my subsequent email to the moderator who banned me that saw me kicked-off!

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Peteff - 9/2/11 at 10:10 AM

We could all join and ask for their advice, I might be in the market for a new record player as my old Dansette is getting a bit temperamental

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scootz - 9/2/11 at 10:17 AM

Good grief... just read that thread and it's like something out of a Monty Python sketch!

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flak monkey - 9/2/11 at 10:47 AM

Not sure what you mean Scott, lol. Unfotunately as they have deleted some of my posts it now make it look like I was acting the tw@t, rather than just presenting my view and evidence to support it. Hence why I copied in my last reply here as I knew it would go!

I am not that bothered about getting banned, I was most annoyed that my link was edited from my original post without any proper explanation. Linking to external sites isnt against their forum rules and my link wasnt offensive.

I couldnt condone joining up and asking for silly advice. That would be irresponsible of me....

Would I be cynical in saying that maybe there are commercial reasons why they didnt want my point of view being perpetrated as fact??

[Edited on 9/2/11 by flak monkey]

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scootz - 9/2/11 at 12:06 PM

It was the absolute obtuseness of the moderator and his dictatorial style that made me think of a Monty P sketch...

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flak monkey - 9/2/11 at 12:13 PM

quote:

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Originally posted by scootz
It was the absolute obtuseness of the moderator and his dictatorial style that made me think of a Monty P sketch...

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Lol. I think it goes a bit deeper. There obviously must be some sort of commercial interest there somewhere.

He has been reading the 'Gospel according to St Bastard' (obscure Eddie Izzard quote...)

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tony-devon - 9/2/11 at 01:27 PM

LOL all this goes way over my head, and right past my ears in honest truth LOL

a neighbor of mine came round to complain about the noise level a while back, nearly turned green when he saw the hifi, its nothing major high end, but a few decent items, Rega, Naim mainly, and Ruark.

but it works well, especially as Im about 80% deaf in one ear, limited hearing in the other ear, (too many years riding bikes, and being young and a know all, shooting for years with no ear protection, pah, dont need them silly things) and know not a lot about sound, other than I know what I like LOL

he hates me as he knows I couldnt tell the difference between some £5 mp3 player with speakers, and my system, but hey it looks nice and I got all the bits cheap due to my work

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Ninehigh - 10/2/11 at 06:17 PM

$12k for speaker wire? Does it take me to work or give me a, er, gentleman's massage?

Sounds like these are the same kind of nuts that would pay the £1 per tyre for Kwikfit to fill them with nitrogen so they can pootle around in their Hyundai Atoz knowing they're better than you.

My music at work runs through a Sony W595. The inbuilt speaker too. Not great quality but imo it doesn't get a lot better if I pay money

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