Question probably for the plumbers of you out there, guessing this is quite a typical scenario..

Got a 2 bed semi, boiler is awkwardly positioned in the kitchen (low level) and the hot water tank is in a built in wardrobe in the main bedroom (gets hot in there due to this) and pipes run at ceiling level boxed in half way round the house through front room and kitchen.

I want to move/replace (it is an old boiler) into the utility room (adjoining kitchen and outside/below bathroom upstairs) also thinking of replacing with a combi boiler so as to get rid of the hot water tank, possibly asbestos tank in loft (well stop using, not remove/disturb due to cost!) and remove all the horribly visible pipework (ie run the small runs to the rads under flooboards or just painted to blend into decor)

How much of this is it practical/sensible to do myself? (appreciate I need a corgi man to do the connection/ disconnection/ comission of the boiler) but as far as pulling out all the old pipework and reworking runs of 15mm copper whats the norm? I've done washing machine/dishwasher, hot/cold, sinks, outside taps and bits and pieces and would give most things a go but need to know where to draw the line of messup vs cost to put right!

Obviously down here in Surrey will be a bit pricier than norm but can anyone also hazard a guess at a ballpark cost and advise of a good place to look up local plumbers (rather than just the yellow pages) as I don't know any - is somewhere like check a trade a good site to go on?

cheers,

Ned.

Ned,

I've had dodgy old back boilers replaced in both the houses I've bought. Like you I've tackled plumbing jobs like bathrooms, kitchens and outside taps, but to be honest if I had to do it again, I'd probably pay again to have it done. The boiler manufacturer's seem to demand qualified installation for the warranty etc.

Where you will save some money is doing all the prep and finish up work yourself (whic I'm sure you'd do anyway) and making sure you don't get charged by the plumber for disposal of the old boiler and associated rubbish - take it to the tip yourself and take the copper tank to the scrap man (get good money for them).

I've used a company called Northern Gas Heating twice now and they have done a good job for sensible money both times. They work all over the country too.

HTH
Nick

i installed my heating system and was easy, however my house was empty as i was gutting it, and running copper pipes through floors is a pain, i would recommend using modern plastic pipes which are very easy to install in existing floors. plus no joints to leak.
you could install all the radiators and pipes, plumb in cold water and just get someone to install the copper gas line.
but i did this myself and just got a plumber to make the final 2 connections and to gas line.

you just need to get the pipe sizes correct.

Thanks for the link Nick, will check that one out. Once the ex has left (buying her out, paperwork signed today) then it'll only be me there so I'm not too bothered about mess as long as i have a room to live out of and a working sink & toilet!

Not planning on replacing the radiators, doesn't seem any need but obviously depending on boiler type and location pipework will need rerouting to suit the new system.

Ned.

Make sure you are happy with the probable reduction in flow rate which a combination boiler WILL give (unless it's crap already!). This will only be noticeable if you run a bath.

I really wouldn't use plastic pipes unless you absolutely have to. The fittings are questionable on ALL the systems I've seen. I'd use copper EVEN at today's prices.

Make sure you only notch pipework in joists between 10-20% of the supported span and only on the top of the joist. You can drill, of course, IF you use plastic, but I REALLY wouldn't.

Ned - I've done a few conversions from Tank to Combi and my own Combi to Combi and I have no previous experience. I used copper, no pre-leaded joints to keep down cost and make a nicer cleaner joint. Don't use plastic they swell/contract and eventually leak, usually in the most inaccesible of places... Even wired the boiler myself but got a Corgi guy to install and relocate the Gas piping. Everything was perfect he even commented how good the soldering was... if anything happens to your boiler though as a result of your work you're shafted! Therefore I recommend Worcester/Bosch boiler which are superb - avoid Vokera Comib's like the plague - they are cheap (read expensive to buy) Italian, sensor riddled, poorly assembled, unreliable, cancer riddled piles of SH1TE!!! Only good for keeping the extortionately priced Engineer(s) (now don't get me started) to mend constantly - when the bill hit £400 in two years it was time for it to go. Paid £800 for the Bosch and it's already saving me money!

Steve

[Edited on 22-8-06 by Hellfire]

i only said used plastic if it is going to be a hassle to run pipes with in floor voids, if it is no hassle than use copper all the time.

here are some links to sizing the system

http://www.gasheating.co.uk/sizingthesystem.html

http://www.gasheating.co.uk/pipesizing.html

http://www.diydata.com/planning/ch_design/sizing_pipes.htm

plastic gets more tempting every day with copper so expensive. Its nice that it does gentle bends easily, but as already said, the fittings arent great. I believe you can use proper compression fittings if you use inserts, if this is so then id do that. Just leave the floorboards up for a week to ensure there are no leaks.

Its a wee easy job to do anyway, esp if theres no missus to nag and p!ss you off about the mess! lol

unless I'm missing something persumably there's no reason why i can't reuse any decent lengths of copper to save buying new stuff or is it a fals economy and best to weigh it in with the tank and buy new anyway?

cheers for the replies so far...

Ned.

make sure you clean any pipe you are reusing, you dont want to let the sludge build up.

Yep. Re-use if you can.

The other problem with plastic pipe after it's inability to hold water with any regularity is it just looks shit.
Crap copperwork looks rough if it's not level or plumb and plastic just winds about all over the place.
People who actually care about these things then tend to convert to copper everywhere where you can see it and defeat the object.

Use 15mm stainless.

Just think of the money you'll save on paint.

just burn some chavs for heat,do us all a favour

I wll probably be looking at a new boiler soon (goota sell my landy first - I may cry). the corgi feller who moved my gas pipe in kitchen reckoned on about £1500 to replace my combi boiler. asked about moving it across the bathroom (to free up room for a free standing shower) he said would be a PITA. didn't give a cost for that.

My Father in law had a whole house done (terraced) in lincoln about 2 year ago, cost about £3500.

British Gas have got an offer on. wifey contacted them for a quote, have not got back to us.

B&Q sell boilers for about £400, but apparantly these are a cheap european import, are crap, and do not meet current corgi regulaltions. the corgi bloke said he, would not fit, and iff he did, would not carry a garantee.

A recurring name that people are sugesting is the worcester/bosch brand.

I used to be a plumber some time ago and don't get me wrong converting to a combi is a big, messy job but is do-able by yourself. A bit like building your own chassis really to use a comparison. Trust me a lot of firms nowadays are using plastic but I think its a play off. It is a lot quicker and they're generally on price work but copper does look better i.e. bend radii are better. I'm loath to agree with Hellfire that you should just jump on and do it as judging by his build, he has quite a bit of talent (not brown nosing, just impressed ) I reckon though if you are on your own and don't mind the mess then yeah give it a pop but just take your time. Good luck

British Gas did a new clean combi install in my house about 5 years ago for £1800.

Yes they brought all the gear plumbed it all in copper. All I had at the time was the gas meter in the porch.

£1800 for a new combi system, 6 rads in a 2 bedroom bungalow. It took them 2 days.

By comparison, last year I added an upstairs to the house, 2 more beds and another bathroom and it cost me over £1K to get 3 more rads and a bathroom plumbed out. Plastic pipe in all the unseen places.

Years ago I installed a system myself in a house we were renevating. It was empty at the time.
Like others got the corgi man to connect and commision the boiler. We left the filling loop open to the mains overnight and got a fairly satisfactory indication of no leaks after 12+ hours at 4 bar....

Close mate of mine is a plumber, reckoned about £1500 for a place slightly bigger than yours Ned.

He says stick with copper pipe! Says he hates plastic, it's a bodge and he doesn't trust it not to leak after 5 years!

So there you go!

Cheers,
James

9 months back I converted my house from gravity-fed to mains-pressure hot water. I kept the existing boiler (for now) but removed the cold water and expansion tanks in the loft, and the hot water tank in the airing cupboard, replacing them all with a heat store in the loft. If you've not heard of heat stores before, they're an interesting technology that has all the advantages of a combi boiler, and none of the disadvantages. I have been deeply impressed - it's working very well for me so far

To make this happen I needed to do a *LOT* of replumbing over 3 floors, including directly connecting to the boiler, all in a single weekend. I used a combination of copper and plastic piping, along with some high-end, and expensive push-fit connectors (Tectite, from Yorkshire Fittings). Having always used solder fittings in the past, I was skeptical of the push-fit stuff, but it was every bit as good as claimed. I have 6bar of water pressure at my house (think of a 200ft water tower in the back garden!), and have not had a single leak from the work I did. I reckon that using this new stuff was 2-3 times faster than using solder joints; which may be one reason why plumbers on an hourly rate don't like it very much ...

The plastic pipe fits onto the pushfit connectors perfectly, using metal inserts to support the pipe. You can join plastic to copper like this. The Tectite stuff comes with a 25year warranty when used according to their specifications (which I found reassuring).

I suspect that if you're fairly competent you ought to be able to plumb everything else up yourself, and just have the boiler installed/comissioned by the Corgi man. Thats certainly what I'd aim to do ...

Cheers
Richard

Ok, I'm biassed, but plastic pipe systems are the way forward (unless running horizontal with insufficient pipe clips). I work in product development for a plastic pipe and fitting manufacturer. Pipes and fittings are manufactured in our Doncaster plant to exacting standards. Suggestions that 6 bar is in any way exceptional for a plastic pipe is laughable!
We test every production run of pipe and fitting (15mm) to 38 bar. The fittings do not leak. Just for fun, we sometimes blow the stuff up. Pressures of 50 to 60 bar are needed, and this ruptures the pipe before the push fit fitting blows. 99.9% of faults reported are down to crap in the fittings. Plumbers don't realise you have to be just as careful with plastic as you do when soldering copper.
The amount of fittings that are just thrown into toolboxes to be used later is frightening. If you open a bag of fittings, seal it to stop dust getting in!
We regularly do factory visits for plumbers, and even the most diehard copper fan can be converted to plastic after seeing our test regime.
BTW we guarantee our product, if installed to our recommendations, for 50 years.

Sorry about the rant, BUT I believe in our product!!

Just to add, if you're installing a combi boiler, plumb the first metre or so in copper. If the water level is low in the heat exchanger and the boiler is on full, as soon as the pump switches on, a shot of superheated water could damage the plastic pipe.

[Edited on 23/8/06 by Marcus]

I totaly agree, problems with new technologies are invariably down to useage and/or lack of understanding.

If it really was only good for 5 years, most of the manufacturers would be out of business already.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marcus
Suggestions that 6 bar is in any way exceptional for a plastic pipe is laughable!
We test every production run of pipe and fitting (15mm) to 38 bar. The fittings do not leak. Just for fun, we sometimes blow the stuff up. Pressures of 50 to 60 bar are needed, and this ruptures the pipe before the push fit fitting blows.

---

quote:

---

Sorry about the rant, BUT I believe in our product!!

---

Been looking at boilers online, seeing as I'd heard of worcester before (the only one i'd heard of before) and they appear to be worcester-bosch I think thats a brand I'd trust and I'm guessing they are nearer the top/better quality end of the market - don't want to be farting about with some cheap rubbishy thing.

Looking at the worcester bosch site the 'find a boiler' part of the site is recommending a greenstar 25cdi or 24i junior. Anyone care to comment on these two machines? The latter seems to be 20kg lighter, £150 cheaper and I can't see much difference in the technical specs, anyone care to comment on that either?

details here:
http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/index.php?fuseaction=product.techdata&con_id=127777
and here:
http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/index.php?fuseaction=product.techdata&con_id=125926
repsectively

I've checked out the documentation/installation notes and all seems relatively straight forward pending finding a man to do the gas work.

cheers,

Ned.

I posted about this before , I'd be interested if you find someone to commision the boiler , I reckon the rest aint too difficult.

how much are they ned?

if anyone in leeds or nearby needs one doing, my mate will probably sort it nice and cheap.

[Edited on 23/8/06 by JoelP]

without trawling all the sites again I think the cheapest I saw the 25cdi was about £860 and the 24i junior £720odd (inc vat) you then have to add whichever programmer (wireless programmable stat jobbie from about £50) and any additional flue bits.

I discovered this afternoon a work colleague who has had a 35cdi installed a couple of months back (very happy customer, had a problem with it but couldn't fault their after sales/warranty) and another forum member has told me of another locoster who might be able to help with the gas

My colleague tells me he's friends with his plumber now so might be able to get me a trade price aswell

Ned.

[Edited on 23/8/06 by ned]

Worcester Bosch have a factory about a mile from here in Danesmoor, I used to work there when it was under different management years ago spraying panels and components. It's all done by robots now. My brother in law was welding there till he retired this year.

i dont know how good a make biasi is, but i got a 28kw one for around 600 from a local trade centre. Seems to work fine, if i could just persuade my mate to come back and finish fitting it! Needs the drain sorting, and the vent cementing up.... and a proper filling loop adding!

I need to replace my old 26KW combi boiler. Rads etc are fine.

One firm quotes £3000, Thames Water will do it for £3900.

Are they joking, or what ?

Sounds a lot to me. Boiler and required parts is most likely under a grand (especially to them at trade), don't know what labour they're charging but would be interesting to see a breakdown of that and how long they recon the job'll take!

ps friend of a friend had their old warm air heating system replaced with a combi including rads and it was £2.5k about a year-18 months ago if that helps.

[Edited on 29/11/06 by ned]

http://www.inspiredheating.co.uk/acatalog/GAS_CONDENSING_COMBI_HEATING_PACKS.html

Something you may be interested in Ned, prices aren't too bad IMO. Not sure what the Glow Worm boilers are like but they do Worcester as well.

Just bought myself a new place in Gosport which needs CH put in (on storage heating at the mo ) so will be watching this thread.