Why when a BEC will outperform it?
quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire
Why when a BEC will outperform it?
soooo predictable
quote:
Originally posted by mookaloid
quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire
Why when a BEC will outperform it?
Didnt someone on here try it ages ago??
I've got one in my middy ........... but that's probably no help at all
Hi
Dont no of any sevens, but Chris Hill has fitted one in a Stylus
Have a look in the members car section here http://www.clubstylus.be/
Adrian
I'd like to, but have been talked out of it because of the weight. Gone for a Series 3 zetec on throttle bodies instead.
This is my first choice of engine, but I haven't yet confirmed if it will be possible. It's certainly not going to be the lightest option
(nor is it that heavy being all alloy), but 200bhp + should be possible without any serious work, cheap to buy as there are loads around and it will
sound glorious
Mating it with a RWD gearbox will certainly be an issue as I'm yet to get a definitive answer on what the bolt pattern is etc. Also the book
chassis will need tweaking for it to fit, but we'll see.
As I'm planning a tourer rather than an out and out blaster, then I think it will be a pretty good option if I can get it to work.
[Edited on 24/4/06 by bilbo]
[Edited on 24/4/06 by bilbo]
quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire
Why when a BEC will outperform it?
quote:
It's certainly not going to be the lightest option (nor is it that heavy being all alloy),
Oooh Buncefm, you are new around here aren't you
BEC - Bike engined Car.
Some people swear by 'em, some people swear at 'em!
Either way you ain't going to get more performance for your money. Even a standard fireblade engined seven is capable of a 4sec 0 - 60
sprint.
Good luck on whatever you go with and welcome to the best forum on the 'net
Marcus
quote:
Originally posted by Marcus
Oooh Buncefm, you are new around here aren't you
BEC - Bike engined Car.
Some people swear by 'em, some people swear at 'em!
Either way you ain't going to get more performance for your money. Even a standard fireblade engined seven is capable of a 4sec 0 - 60 sprint.
Good luck on whatever you go with and welcome to the best forum on the 'net
Marcus
ive thought about the BEC's how do you go about the gear box? what can be used and what sort of money can you pick one up for? i have heard
that they are best used on the track and aren't that good at low rpm?
quote:
Originally posted by garyo
Have you weighed one? I'd be interested in a like for like comparison with a Zetec.
quote:
Originally posted by bilbo
It's certainly not going to be the lightest option (nor is it that heavy being all alloy), but 200bhp + should be possible without any serious work, cheap to buy as there are loads around and it will sound glorious
will spice it up to nearly 300bhp which makes the power to weight ratio (700kg for my middy) quite interesting to say the least!
quote:
Originally posted by buncefm
ive thought about the BEC's how do you go about the gear box?
Welcome Buncefm,
BECs used the bike gearbox with a propshaft adapter where the drive
sprocket lives. Thus giving a sequential box. Obviously there's no reverse but
there are ways to fit one in the drivetrain.
Most don't bother as becs weigh so little, just push
As for price, well how long is a piece of string !
I paid £300 for a ZZR1100 and some pay £3000 for something like a Hayabusa.
Some say becs are more suited to tracks but it's personal opinion at the end of the day.
Nige
Are you sure 205kg, that sounds a lot compared with the normal Duratec (straight 4) at 95kg. I would have thought that it would be heavier but not more than twice!
quote:
Originally posted by RazMan
quote:
Originally posted by garyo
Have you weighed one? I'd be interested in a like for like comparison with a Zetec.
205 Kg according to this flyer
That's twice the weight of a Duratec HE (109Kg) 
Duratec HE is about 95 dry
Pinto IIRC is about 150, boat anchor would be lighter TBH but is cheap power
Zetec about 20kg lighter
And well the XE is off the scales
[Edited on 24/4/06 by Tim 45]
Yeah but think of all that torque - and the noise! 
For all duratec data see here
Bear in mind that from the pictures that weight looks to include flywheel, exhaust manifolds and cats, big alternator, power steering pump or ac
compressor, beauty covers and maybe even engine mounts. Doubt some of the duratec quotes are that fully dressed. There will be plenty you can junk
of that V6 for sure.
By way of comparison, i put my honda V6 in my car the other week and slipped my precision load cell between the hoist and straps. 126kg including my
steel adaptor plate and the starter motor. I was pleasantly surprised. I still have to add a fabbed inlet plenum and a baby alternator but
that's pinto territory with about 200bhp on megasquirt!! And about 300 when i strap on two little snails
Liam
900cc bike engine
150Bhp 70Kgs INCL GEARBOX AND CLUTCH...
Tks
Duratec 150kg MAX inc gearbox (yes its true, i have seen it weighed)
Easy 200, possible 260bhp
car weight 580kg WET
power to weight roughly 448 bhp/tonne
Smiles all round
2.5 V6 data here
[Edited on 24/4/06 by Tim 45]
quote:
Originally posted by Liam
Bear in mind that from the pictures that weight looks to include flywheel, exhaust manifolds and cats, big alternator, power steering pump or ac compressor, beauty covers and maybe even engine mounts. Doubt some of the duratec quotes are that fully dressed. There will be plenty you can junk of that V6 for sure.
wasn't there a standard chip that took it up to 200bhp ? Mate had a cougar and he had it done. Reconed it was ford approved.
quote:
Originally posted by RazMan
Yeah but think of all that torque - and the noise!
The same website has a technical sheet for what looks like the Zetec. It's listed as 118kg. If the same site has the V6 as 200kg then, well, that
puts me off.
zetec data sheet
I'd love the V6 to be a light engine - I just need convincing and I'll have a 3.0 one fitted by winter!
Yipeeeee another convert
Today - Locost, tomorrow ze vorld !!
quote:
I'd love the V6 to be a light engine - I just need convincing and I'll have a 3.0 one fitted by winter!
. , and effortless driveability, just go for the V6/V8 and stop worrying about how much
it weighs. It's all about the whole experience in the end - not tenths of seconds round a race track. I'm always looking at weight - I changed my seats last month to save 8 kilos per side. I think light weight is core to the seven/locost
philosophy - that's why our cars have neck breaking acceleration for such little cost.
agree with your comments about people pre-judging the handling effects of a V6/8 engine, but you still need to go into an engine decision with your
eyes open and armed with the information - if you fit an engine that's 80 kilos heavier then it *will* be like having a passenger on board all
the time, so you need to make sure the extra power and torque is worth it. Not to mention the fact that as the weight goes up, so does the load on
brakes, tyres, and the cooling system, (disproportionately, it seems) which is a big deal on track days, and can be the difference between being able
to drive hard for 20 minutes without the car fading, or not.
It's horses for courses, like you say. At the moment I still don't think I know how much a Zetec or V6 Duratec weigh for an honest
comparison, so can't even begin to think about it
I though the 2.5 V6 from the ST24 was very similar to the one in the ST220, a was 220 as standard, thats with standard manifolds, powersteering pump and cat. So take all that off, a couple of decent 4-2-1 exhaust and you should be looking at a very nice power figure.
The old ST24 was a 2.5 with 170bhp as standard. The ST200 came along with a 200bhp 2.5, and the ST220 is a 3.0 with 220bhp. Probably only the older
170bhp engine can be had for pennies, but should be nicely tunable.
Liam
quote:
Er hello - you will still be driving a ~600kg car with a close to 50-50 weight distribution. What's the problem? If you like something a bit different, like the sound of the correct number of cylinders
Liam
. If nothing else, judging by the interest in this thread, it's a real talking
point.
Have you considered the Camry 3.0 V6? The later ones (1MZFE) are all alloy and pretty light for a V6. The early ones (3VZFE) have an iron block but are pretty bullet proof. You can pick up an early Camry for about £500.
quote:
Originally posted by Tim 45
Duratec HE is about 95 dry
Pinto IIRC is about 150, boat anchor would be lighter TBH but is cheap power
Zetec about 20kg lighter
And well the XE is off the scales
[Edited on 24/4/06 by Tim 45]
Hmmm I was seriously looking at the Duratec V6 for my Striker but as I couldn't find an "off the shelf" gearbox adapter so I stayed
with my usual choice of a Toyota engine.
I can remember not being put off by the weight at the time but its been a while since I built the Striker so don't have the figures I dug up. The
other factor for me was the height of the engine. The length was no problem but it is a tall engine especially for a Striker chassis. Custom sump
required at the very least.
I was always impressed by the Razor V8 in the 750MC championship as it was quite often beating the RAW Striker with a bike engine.
[Edited on 25/4/06 by bimbleuk]
quote:
Duratec 150kg MAX inc gearbox (yes its true, i have seen it weighed)
Easy 200, possible 260bhp
car weight 580kg WET
power to weight roughly 448 bhp/tonne
Smiles all round
quote:
Originally posted by tks
BEC wil always rule out CEC wy?
HAYABUSA TRUBO 350Bhp...
busa turbos can go upto 700bhp so 350 isnt really that high it should last several years if you are careful and do the turbo conversion properly.
unfortunately the cost would be atleast £5k more likely £7k but then a 260bhp duratec would be also very silly money.
for more normal money you can get a 200bhp duratec (new engine about £2.5k ish including tbs etc to get you to 200bhp) for that you could have a new
r1 also at 200bhp but at 58kg rather than 150kg.
in the end the duratec is more user friendly but isnt going to be as quick.
back on topic
isnt the jag v6 based on the duratec if so that has a fairly healthy 235bhp with possibly alot more if you mange to get some bike tbs to fit and
change the ecu.
quote:
Originally posted by greggors84
So take all that off, a couple of decent 4-2-1 exhaust
[quotefor more normal money you can get a 200bhp duratec (new engine about £2.5k ish including tbs etc to get you to 200bhp) for that you could have a
new r1 also at 200bhp but at 58kg rather than 150kg.
in the end the duratec is more user friendly but isnt going to be as quick.
back on topic
isnt the jag v6 based on the duratec if so that has a fairly healthy 235bhp with possibly alot more if you mange to get some bike tbs to fit and
change the ecu.
I have a hunch that the Jag Duratec has got a different intake system and reworked heads - it is also the 3 litre version. Otherwise it is identical.
What would be the cheapest? The ford 220 or the jag 3 litre? Would they be much difference in power once fitted with new exhausts/inlets/tb's etc?
Extrude honed inlet manifolds was one of the main differences with the st 220. To be honest with 5 grand i think even i could manage more than 300bhp from a car engine.
£5k? I've got no intention of spending that on an engine. I want a v6, but also want 230/240+bhp to make it worth the effort/expense of the extra exhaust and inlet and to counter the extra weight.
There are always lots of ST24 / ST200 /ST220 engines on eBay. I have seen some engines go for as little as £200!
theres a st24 on there at the moment for £50 but it has done 80k.
the 3l wont weigh much more than the 2.5l and will have more power potential but they probably cost a fair bit more. (no idea how much tbh)
either way with a decent tubular exhaust and maybe even tbs(as much for sound as perfomance) then you can have a very quicker car with a relaxed power
delivery. just go easy on boosting the torque as it will be hairy enough as it is.
quote:
Originally posted by Tim 45
Duratec HE is about 95 dry
Pinto IIRC is about 150, boat anchor would be lighter TBH but is cheap power
Zetec about 20kg lighter
And well the XE is off the scales
[Edited on 24/4/06 by Tim 45]
To use the V6 duratec in rwd you need the gearbox from an S-type jag. This is the 3.0L duratec rwd and not the one based on the Mondeo (x-type).
There is also a US model that also uses the 3.0L V6 in rwd form but i can't remember the name of it. Manual box goes for £500 to £1500 new
I've done a bit of research about fitting a Jaguar V6 engine into a 7 type car.
The following are my key findings:
The Ford and Jaguar V6 duratec engines have a similar block, and that the cylinder heads and valve gear are the key differences. The Ford uses
roller finger followers for the valve actuation, the Jaguar uses mechanical buckets. The Jaguar engine has a forged steel crankshaft; I do not know
what type is used in the Ford engine.
Power and torque for the Jaguar engines are high even considering there capacity, and it is easy to extract over 280 BHP for the Jaguar 3.0 via
throttle bodies and a good exhaust. The bottom end is good for about 330 BHP according to Mountune (to get to 330 BHP you also need to add new set
of cams). I suspect that this is ample power for a 7 type car; I look forward to the day when I drive such a beast.
Engine weights are not as bad as I first expected. In the Jaguar installation the engine is about 150kg - this includes all fluids, the aircon
compressor and power steering pump, the exhaust manifolds (heavy cast iron items of about 8kg) and the heavy inlet system (about 9 kg), although it
does not include the flywheel or starter. In a seven type car I estimated the engine and transmission weight to be about 170kg including starter
motor, flywheel, throttle bodies, exhaust manifold and alternator.
The best option I found for the inlet was two sets of throttle bodies from a Triumph three cylinder, thus saving about 6kg, should enable more power,
and are relatively cheap, just need a little bit of time to get to fit.
The easiest gearbox to use is the Getrag 221 as used in the Jaguar S-Type and Lincoln LS V6. It is quite compact and light - about 33 kg.
In my opinion, the Jaguar V6 seemed to offer one of the best routes to cheap reliable horsepower whilst remaining relatively light. The Nissan V6
from the 350z may be even more attractive an option if available. I guess it will be a similar weight and would give more power.
Regards,
Mark
That's the way forward I was planning on the tb's. Two sets from triumph speed triples. They were quite cheap last time I looked, since most need 4 pot sets.
Is 78k miles excessive on these engines? I know a zetec's good for 200k with regular belt and oil changes.
Interesting info!
Out of interest - where did you get the engine weight figure from?
Liam
quote:
Originally posted by DIY Si
Is 78k miles excessive on these engines? I know a zetec's good for 200k with regular belt and oil changes.
Mmmm. Might try sneaking buying another engine. God know's where I'd put it though. So mileage should be treated as per the zetec? Or
just ignored if there's a fsh?
Yeah that's nothing for a lazy v6! I wouldn't be surprised if the cambelt interval is 40000 so at 78 it will need a belt and tensioner kit.
But you'd do that anyway for your locost...
Liam
quote:
Originally posted by Liam
Yeah that's nothing for a lazy v6! I wouldn't be surprised if the cambelt interval is 40000 so at 78 it will need a belt and tensioner kit. But you'd do that anyway for your locost...
Liam
Oh yeah, duuuuuur. Fantastic then!! Would be nice to see history with it then i suppose, just so you know it's not still running on original oil.
Liam,
Engine as shipped weight and gearbox weight are from information supplied by Jaguar Technical Information.
Component weights are approximate based on measurements taken by myself.
Mark
Next to the getrag 221, a MCT-5 (sucsessor of the type 9, sort off) will be an option. A bellhouse is beeing developed by Power torque I heard. Also the S-type is not the only one the morgan roadster is also has a Duratec 3.0L V6 RWD.
Next to the getrag 221, a MCT-5 (sucsessor of the type 9, sort off) will be an option. A bellhouse is beeing developed by Power torque I heard. Also the S-type is not the only one the morgan roadster is also has a Duratec 3.0L V6 RWD.
Just to throw a spanner in the works. . . .
Why all the talk of a nice sounding heavy v6 that will cost good money to put in ( gearbox etc.)
When you can get a rover 3.9 at 225-300bhp that weighs much less and will sound even better?
Am I missing something here?
Plus it's been done and it works!
Or is this the point
Rgds
Roger