pauldm
|
| posted on 25/1/07 at 01:00 AM |
|
|
Global warming con.
This is "hot"  topic just now that has got me enraged. News,TV & press is full of cr@p about reducing use of energy, recycling etc.
This all costs more money than just getting on with life without caring about our effects on the global environment. George Bush got it right not
signing up to the Kyoto agreement. If the West cut's carbon emmisions there is no way we wil be able to compete with China & India. My town
has lost 1000 jobs this month due to companies transfering their work to cheaper manufacturing areas. I ask you what difference can a tiny
island off mainland Europe with a population of 60 million hope to change the theoretical effects of mankind on the environment? If China for example
[with its population of 1,400,000,000] lifted its little pinkie to lower emissions the UK's efforts would be a drop in the ocean.
I have no intention in lowering my standard of living by paying green taxes to benifit future generations.
A proposal - cancel the 2012 [millenium dome errrrrrr] Olympics. That would be the UK's contrabution the the world. A fortune could be
saved in air travel. We would have any one travelling to the shores to pointlessly watch the drugged up "amateurs" huffing & puffing
about.
|
|
|
|
|
zetec7
|
| posted on 25/1/07 at 01:15 AM |
|
|
I agree, for differnt reasons...according to the actual numbers, we're not warming - we've cooled over the last 100 years, and we should
actuall have warmed (remember - we're between ice ages!). The actual numbers gathered over the last 150 or so years show we're slightly
cooler on average than would be expected. Realistically, it's pretty silly of us to think that we can alter something as large and complex as
our planet's ecosystem in only a few decades - and I've read that one volcano erution puts more crap into the air than all the man-made
pollution combined, since the beginning of the industrial revolution!
http://www.freewebs.com/zetec7/
|
|
|
locogeoff
|
| posted on 25/1/07 at 01:33 AM |
|
|
To give an opinion to your question, I hope it wasn't rhetorical, we can lead by example, make the best use of the resources we have because in
the long run it should be cheaper, (please note I completely disregarded the cost of installing clean air technology etc) and I dont want the
pollution problems China has now like we had back in the good old days, unless our house is in order we cannot economically force another state to get
their act together.
in the short term we must stop buying goods and services from China India et al accept that we will have to pay more for our goods and rebuild the
Brittish manufacturing industry, its a matter of what we want, cheap imported goods or more expensive goods that are U.K. manufactured.
Boycott companies that use foreign call centres etc, do the french have this problem?, America rebuilt Harley D with a tax on imported bikes.
On a personal point of view you can do a lot for you're own pocket by saving energy, I think by definition we're all into recycling here
so maybee you're doing your bit already.
Thats a really jumbled up bunch of thoughts, but it is late.
OH and I second your propsal!
[Edited on 25/1/07 by locogeoff]
|
|
|
scotmac
|
| posted on 25/1/07 at 02:41 AM |
|
|
The average temperature for 2005 was the HIGHEST we have *EVER* recorded since we have been able to record it accurately (ie, since around ~1896).
It is obviously not a con.
[Edited on 25/1/07 by scotmac]
|
|
|
scotmac
|
| posted on 25/1/07 at 02:44 AM |
|
|
Here's a good chart on the average global temperature from wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming
|
|
|
C10CoryM
|
| posted on 25/1/07 at 04:06 AM |
|
|
There are too many variables, too large of distances and too long periods of time for us to accurately say bugger all about whats happening.
For example, the "only" thing that makes it hotter around the equator is the distance to the sun (a whole 6000miles closer if I remember
right) and the angle of the light hitting it. Try as we might, we could not even begin to measure the distance to the sun that accuratly. The human
time frame is also far too short to accurately predict the changes of earth. 500years is but an instant to the climate. Every time a volcano farts
it changes the earths climate. CO2 levels are lower now than they ever have been, yet this is what the epa is so upset about..... seems odd.
Having said that, it is the time to start watching, and changing how much impact we have on the earth. We need to maintain our resources or we die.
Simple as that. If the govts want to latch onto global warming to make us simpletons clean up our act, so be it. But I have a hard time believing
what Ive heard as proven truth.
Cheers.
"Our watchword evermore shall be: The Maple Leaf Forever!"
|
|
|
The Shootist
|
 posted on 25/1/07 at 06:44 AM |
|
|
What about Mars?
The polar ice on Mars is shrinking...human effect?
|
|
|
caber
|
| posted on 25/1/07 at 06:44 AM |
|
|
Yes there is a climate problem or at least climate change going on and no there is no conclusive proof that man is the cause. That not withstanding
there are major economic impacts on the first world and second world (basically Europe and America) of maintaining "comfortable" living
conditions according to today's expectations. At the same time we are letting go of our control of manufacture to the Chinese predominantly and
blithely giving them our technical knowledge to produce high technology products. We are also "giving" them the material resources, for
example several tens of thousands of tons of scrap steel are loaded at Leith docks bound for China every month. This is steel from cars, buildings ,
machinery etc.that would originally have been mined and processed in the UK at places like Corby in England, Ravenscraig in Scotland or one of many
places in South Wales.
Why are we doing this? Mainly because of cheap labour. The UK particularly has grown fat on North Sea Oil money has been squandered on large Social
Security benefits payments excessive health and safety measures all seemingly designed to destroy the industry we had, Thanks Mrs Thatcher!
Basically it is now too expensive to employ industrial and manufacturing workers in the UK except in the highest value areas at the same time our
expectation of prices for goods is reducing all the time. The same thing is about to happen in the bigger service industries, particularly design, IT,
construction management and all the other things we do internationally because the UK has devalued University education in the misguided aim of
educating 50% of school leavers to "degree" level while university education in India and China has become more rigorous and more
selective and is outputting thousands of much more able and intelligent graduates, Masters and Doctors in the world labour market. These people are
taking International jobs that would have been held by British graduates as few as 5 years ago.
So back to the Environment. This is a real problem for us to decide individually what to do. Recycling is a good thing, it does not have a negative
impact on our personal lives or rather it should not. Coucils should be organising doorstep collection of sorted materials just like they manage to do
in most of Northern Europe and Scandinavia, they even manage to do this in California and employ low earners, (no social security there!) to sort it
into different materials.
Reducing energy use: well this is the big question. Individually this gives us increasing benefits as the price of power is hiked above the world
price by greedy privatised companies. Reducing travel? yes I would love to fly less, I am writing this on a train from Edinburgh to London, unless I
can book this well in advance it is considerably more expensive than flying, why? Profit hungry privatised train companies supplying a public
transport service. Its a different story in Europe where trains run on time with adequate capacity and reasonable fares, largely government run and
subsidised where necessary with money from profitable services!
It seems that no one in Government looks at Economic History. Private railways ceased to be profitable before the First World War hence the groupings
into 4 large companies after WW1 and Nationalisation after WW2 followed by decimation of the rail system in the 1960s reducing all the feeders to the
main routes and massive traffic reduction, the UK network is not capable of serving enough of the population outside the South East to be the first
choice for travel.
I could go on but have probably already set a record for the longest post ever AARGH!
Caber
|
|
|
flak monkey
|
| posted on 25/1/07 at 07:18 AM |
|
|
When I have time I will write a longer explaination. But the jist of it is this: Global warming is basically an excuse to get us to be more
'careful' about carbon dioxide emissions. All human activity contributes only a tiny percentage of the yearly carbon dioxide emissions
(around 1% IIRC of which 85% is due to cars etc) and has as already been said a small volcanic eruption spews more CO2 into the air than all human
activity since the late 19th century. There are as many eminent scientists opposed to the theory of global warming as there are for it, but guess who
tends to shout loudest?!
The hottest summer on record in the UK was actually in the 1600s. People forget we live in a natural system, which is prone to natural fluctuation.
Some are talking of a average temperature change of 0.3degrees, that really strikes me as odd. Likewise we are between ice ages, indeed we are
technically still in the last one! So some temperture fluctuation (if you believe the figures) is inevitable.
This said I do feel there is a need to slow the rate at which we are consuming the worlds natural resources of fossil fuels and raw materials. Being
more efficient with what we have is always a great thing, and will also seek to lower emissions.
This post may seem a bit contradictory, but its not mean to be...
David
PS I do agree that 'developing' nations should not be excluded from international emissions regulations for the reasons a few people have
already pointed out.
[Edited on 25/1/07 by flak monkey]
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
|
|
|
Agriv8
|
| posted on 25/1/07 at 08:11 AM |
|
|
Dont understand the global warming. Things are changing but I think its just an excuse for the government to con us into paying more taxses.
I belive that more CO2 is relesed from cows and farm animals farting than all the modes of transport put together.
I agree that the use natural resources ( fosil fuels ) needs to be reduced. And when it becoms available I intend to run the V8 on E85 ( bio - ethanol
)
As usual the Press is making its own headlines to sell newspaper or sell advertising. I.e. arnt we all supposed to be dead from bird flu anyway
Ps not going to start on the Chinese or any of the third world ecconomies. Yes we should lead by example but why should struggling UK industries ( and
Jobs ) be put at risk ( why give more companies more excuses to move there manufacturing abroad ) AKA Renult - Royston.
Anyway Rant over.
Agriv8
Taller than your average Guy !
Management is like a tree of monkeys. - Those at the top look down and see a tree full of smiling faces. BUT Those at the bottom look up and see a
tree full of a*seholes .............
|
|
|
russbost
|
| posted on 25/1/07 at 08:54 AM |
|
|
Whilst we may be warming in Europe the world is cooling elsewhere - New Zealand have recorded low temperatures since around 1999 & look at the
recent Californian weather.
The real question is WHY? I read a report from New Zealand written by an "expert" which claimed that only around 1% of the greenhouse
effect is caused by the CO2 blanket getting thicker (which it is, this is something we CAN measure accurately) the rest is caused by the amount of
water in the atmosphere over which we have virtually NO control. Hence the whole man made global warming thing is bo**ox!
One further thing I would love to hear a decent explanation of (other than it was driven by massive business interests!) is why we all have catalytic
converters to change CO (not a major greenhouse gas) to CO2 (the largest contributor to the "blanket". We would all be far better off had
we persued lean burn technology & stopped wasting fuel with bl**dy Cats. But then that wouldn't have lined so many fat cats &
politicians pockets would it!
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
|
02GF74
|
| posted on 25/1/07 at 09:18 AM |
|
|
funnily enough I was thinking about it on the way in to work.
as the climate gets warmer then
a) we will use less fuel for heating so less C02 emissions
b) we will not have to go to Tossa del Mar for out hols as it would be just as wark in Devon, less air travel.
Won;t help the polar bear though.
|
|
|
trogdor
|
| posted on 25/1/07 at 09:31 AM |
|
|
The climate is unbeleiveably complex, there have been many models run to try and predict whats going to happen in the future with varying results
its not just CO2 levels, there are changes in the weather to consider as well, such as the El nino to pick out a well known effect
its true that we are just inbetween ice ages, and that what CO2 amounts we are releesing is not excessive, compared to volcanoes that said the ppm of
CO2 is the highest its been since we have been able to work it out as it is acculmulated since the industrial revolution.
if we are lucky the ocean will draw it down for us and sequester it into the sediments, but i doubt that will happen
it is an prob, but as usual the government has seized on it as being really important and making us pay taxes etc for it, whereas whats really needed
is more research
[Edited on 25/1/07 by trogdor]
|
|
|
smart51
|
| posted on 25/1/07 at 09:32 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by zetec7
we're not warming - we've cooled over the last 100 years,
No. Every piece of temperature data states that we have warmed significantly over the last 100 years.
|
|
|
coozer
|
| posted on 25/1/07 at 09:40 AM |
|
|
I totally agree the actions being forced on us are a con. I do not see any evidence that we in the UK contribute towards global warming.
Since the demise of the coal mining industry and better controls over emmisions I have simply moved to gas to heat my home. Much better eh? I think
not.
I'm of the opinion the world warms up after an ice age and will cool down again in a million years or so as we move towards the next one.
I feel I am a lot more enviromentally aware of my surroundings and the world in general. I recycle my paper and tins and glass bottles, that must be
good yes? Well no. The truck that picks them up is just the start of the carbon consuming process that is invisible to me. I understand it costs more
to recycle the stuff. I certainly wont ever be using my hotwater and soap to clean these bits before I put them out.
Plus when they force a water meter on us that will stop rinsing them out in cold water as well.
My car emits zero carbon running on vegetable oil is the claim but that is not true either. The engine still emits it and it still needs to be
absorbed to get rid of it. Bring on boi fuels!
Sorry to be blunt but it is all a con and a total load of sh1t!! A lot of people are getting rich
1972 V8 Jago
1980 Z750
|
|
|
smart51
|
| posted on 25/1/07 at 09:40 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
All human activity contributes only a tiny percentage of the yearly carbon dioxide emissions ... a small volcanic eruption spews more CO2 into the
air than all human activity since the late 19th century.
The world's CO2 emmissions and absoptions are in balance. CO2 densities in the air have varies naturally between 200 and 300 ppm. Human
activity has added CO2 emissions at an increasing rate. CO2 density in the air is now 380ppm, higher than at any time in history as measured over
thousands of years in such things as ice core samples. Human activity is adding CO2 at a rate slightly higher than nature but crucially, higher than
nature can absorb so the CO2 level in the air is higher than ever before.
We do not know how much of global warming is due to mankind but there is no doubt that global warming is happening. If you choose to do nothing
because we are not 99% sure then it will bo too late to do anything.
Whilst it may be true that the UK alone will not solve the problem, the problem will not be solved if the UK does nothing. To solve a global problem,
everyone needs to do a small part. Countries like India and China won't start until we have. It is up to "enlightened" countries
such as ours to lead the way.
|
|
|
trogdor
|
| posted on 25/1/07 at 09:41 AM |
|
|
we are warming, but the temperatures are not that unusual for the Earth, it has been hotter than this and colder
something WILL happen to change our climate, its not a static environment, it will change for the worse and possibly for the better, the Earth will
survive the excess CO2 emissions, but maybe at the expensive of alot of life on this planet.
[Edited on 25/1/07 by trogdor]
|
|
|
Syd Bridge
|
| posted on 25/1/07 at 10:15 AM |
|
|
I saw the quotes that co2 levels are now at 380ppm as well. But they are known to have been much higher in times past.
No one has mentioned the 'global dimming' thing. First awareness made by an aussie working on another project to do with evaporation
rates. The evaporation has slowed down largely and measurably since the 1950's.
The slow down in evaporation is known to be caused by less sun energy coming through. This then impacts on vegetation growth and carbon (CO2)
absorbtion. Less sunlight = less growth= less CO2 absorbtion. The drop in sunlight transmission WILL end up in rapid cooling and an ice age.
The cooling will drop the amount of water in the atmosphere in a rapid switch, the planet will then warm up, the atmosphere will fill with water
vapour and dust, will then dim and cool,......and the cycle will go on for millenia.
The time between cold (or ice) ages is also known to a decreasing period since these cycles have been known to exist. Millions of years, and each
'warm' period has got progressively shorter.
Then there's the sunspot cycles within cycles within cycles. No mention of the relevance of any of this either, but it is more relevant than
most of the bs talked about.
Man thinking he can change the climate? You'd have more chance of pissing into a hurricane and staying dry! 
Anyway, it's all a big con to get us to pay more tax and spend money on unnecessary junk, like cat converters. All to end up in the pockets of
the wealthy, one way or another.
Cheers,
Syd. 
|
|
|
Agriv8
|
| posted on 25/1/07 at 10:18 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Scoobylav
quote:
I belive that more CO2 is relesed from cows and farm animals farting than all the modes of transport put together.
Agriv8
True a cow produces more "Greenhouse Gas" in a year than an average 3 series BMW.
Kill all the cows and eat lots of steak . . . . theres your answer
Stop fitting cats to cars and start fitting them to Cows .
I have heard that it is true to get certain car engines to be less polouting using leanburn technologies but would mean dropping of the Cat I am sure
that any investigations in favour would be po-pooed by ones sponsered by the Oil companies !!
Regards
Agriv8
Taller than your average Guy !
Management is like a tree of monkeys. - Those at the top look down and see a tree full of smiling faces. BUT Those at the bottom look up and see a
tree full of a*seholes .............
|
|
|
Bluemoon
|
| posted on 25/1/07 at 10:23 AM |
|
|
smart51 your spot on.. Anyone who thinks that this is not a problem will find out in the next 25-50 years if it is... As we have only one planet I
would be a little worried.
Dan
|
|
|
macnab
|
| posted on 25/1/07 at 10:26 AM |
|
|
I love graphs like this, just look at the temperature variation, a fraction of a degree. Measured at best by a bloke looking at a thermometer and no
mention of instrument reading error at worst just a guess. For example just how accurate did people measure temperatures during medieval times!!
I produce graphs for meetings all the time and can make them show what ever I want, even utter lies!
Beware strangers bearing graphs...
[Edited on 25/1/07 by macnab]
 
Rescued attachment graph.png
|
|
|
trogdor
|
| posted on 25/1/07 at 10:31 AM |
|
|
there are many biological and chemical and physical feedbacks on the Earth that can cause increased temperatures, they can have a positive (increase
temperatures) or a negative (decrease temperatures) effect
the balance of all these determines our environment, this is known as Gaia theory which is increasingly being recognised as a proper science.
as well as environment effect there are the effects of the earth travelling through space, the milankovich cycles, such as precession, Eccentricity
and axial tilt
these all have an effect on the environment as they effect the Earth as it orbits around the sun
|
|
|
trogdor
|
| posted on 25/1/07 at 10:34 AM |
|
|
they measure temperature in the past by drilling ice cores and by measuring the varying amounts of the two main isotopes of oxygen within the core,
this with some processing is an proxy for temperature
it is meant to be pretty accurate, but who knows?
|
|
|
macnab
|
| posted on 25/1/07 at 11:42 AM |
|
|
Again is it accurate to a fraction of a deg...No
Ice core samples only tell you the atmospheric gas mix, not temperature. The thickness of the winter and summer snowfall bands give an indication of
the climate, again just an approximation. Anyone who puts a graph on a web site with such erroneous values either doesn't understand how to
produce graphs or is trying to make out that their values are worth something by showing the values changing so much. To me it is a clear indication
that this person who did this graph trying to mislead.
Scientists still can’t agree on why ice ages even occur for example is it
a) sunspot activity
b) variations in sun output
c) volcanic activity
d) the solar system passing through dust clouds
etc….
Each of these groups of scientist will magically produce graphs that show amazing correlations with their theories.
|
|
|
trogdor
|
| posted on 25/1/07 at 12:34 PM |
|
|
its ulikely to be one thing, the earth responds to many different events and feedbacks to produce climate,
it was once said that adding enough iron to the southern ocean would start an ice age, but we now know thats very unlikely
global climate is the result of all these varying processes and we will never be able to accurately predict or understand it at any point in the near
future
|
|
|
