RazMan
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| posted on 24/4/06 at 08:21 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Liam
Bear in mind that from the pictures that weight looks to include flywheel, exhaust manifolds and cats, big alternator, power steering pump or ac
compressor, beauty covers and maybe even engine mounts. Doubt some of the duratec quotes are that fully dressed. There will be plenty you can junk
of that V6 for sure.
I forgot to mention that I have junked the aircon, power steering, large alternator, water pump (gone electric) idler wheels, heavy exhaust manifolds
& three (!) cats, most of the engine management gizmos and shaved a lot off the flywheel. I havent actually weighed it but I reckon at least 30Kg
in all.
[Edited on 24-4-06 by RazMan]
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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MikeR
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| posted on 24/4/06 at 09:12 PM |
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wasn't there a standard chip that took it up to 200bhp ? Mate had a cougar and he had it done. Reconed it was ford approved.
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bilbo
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| posted on 24/4/06 at 09:40 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by RazMan
Yeah but think of all that torque - and the noise! 
Oh Yes
OK Raz, you've convinced me to stay with this enignie
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garyo
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| posted on 24/4/06 at 09:45 PM |
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The same website has a technical sheet for what looks like the Zetec. It's listed as 118kg. If the same site has the V6 as 200kg then, well,
that puts me off.
zetec data sheet
I'd love the V6 to be a light engine - I just need convincing and I'll have a 3.0 one fitted by winter!
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RazMan
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| posted on 24/4/06 at 09:47 PM |
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Yipeeeee another convert
Today - Locost, tomorrow ze vorld !! 
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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Liam
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| posted on 24/4/06 at 10:21 PM |
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quote:
I'd love the V6 to be a light engine - I just need convincing and I'll have a 3.0 one fitted by winter!
I think you have to face that it isn't a light engine!! Not compared to light 4 pots anyway. The point of these V6s is that they are an
extremely cheap source of power in standard form, with torque that largely makes up for their weight, nice driveability and reliability, and a proper
soundtrack  .
And remember, at worse they're only about a person heavier than a 4-pot (and working for their living rather harder than a passenger does) -
hardly going to slow you down to a crawl is it, and really not worth worrying about at all unless you're racing.
One thing that occasionally gets up my goat is people using terms like tank, barge & understeer when dismissing the use of larger engines. Er
hello - you will still be driving a ~600kg car with a close to 50-50 weight distribution. What's the problem? If you like something a bit
different, like the sound of the correct number of cylinders , and effortless driveability, just go for the V6/V8 and stop worrying about how much
it weighs. It's all about the whole experience in the end - not tenths of seconds round a race track.
Liam
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garyo
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| posted on 24/4/06 at 11:03 PM |
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I'm always looking at weight - I changed my seats last month to save 8 kilos per side. I think light weight is core to the seven/locost
philosophy - that's why our cars have neck breaking acceleration for such little cost.
agree with your comments about people pre-judging the handling effects of a V6/8 engine, but you still need to go into an engine decision with your
eyes open and armed with the information - if you fit an engine that's 80 kilos heavier then it *will* be like having a passenger on board all
the time, so you need to make sure the extra power and torque is worth it. Not to mention the fact that as the weight goes up, so does the load on
brakes, tyres, and the cooling system, (disproportionately, it seems) which is a big deal on track days, and can be the difference between being able
to drive hard for 20 minutes without the car fading, or not.
It's horses for courses, like you say. At the moment I still don't think I know how much a Zetec or V6 Duratec weigh for an honest
comparison, so can't even begin to think about it 
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greggors84
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| posted on 24/4/06 at 11:19 PM |
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I though the 2.5 V6 from the ST24 was very similar to the one in the ST220, a was 220 as standard, thats with standard manifolds, powersteering pump
and cat. So take all that off, a couple of decent 4-2-1 exhaust and you should be looking at a very nice power figure.
Chris
The Magnificent 7!
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Liam
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| posted on 25/4/06 at 12:09 AM |
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The old ST24 was a 2.5 with 170bhp as standard. The ST200 came along with a 200bhp 2.5, and the ST220 is a 3.0 with 220bhp. Probably only the older
170bhp engine can be had for pennies, but should be nicely tunable.
Liam
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bilbo
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| posted on 25/4/06 at 08:17 AM |
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quote:
Er hello - you will still be driving a ~600kg car with a close to 50-50 weight distribution. What's the problem? If you like something a bit
different, like the sound of the correct number of cylinders , and effortless driveability, just go for the V6/V8 and stop worrying about how much
it weighs. It's all about the whole experience in the end - not tenths of seconds round a race track.
Liam
Here Here.
I'm definitely going to be sticking with this engine choice  . If nothing else, judging by the interest in this thread, it's a real
talking point.
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ChrisJLW
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| posted on 25/4/06 at 08:34 AM |
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Have you considered the Camry 3.0 V6? The later ones (1MZFE) are all alloy and pretty light for a V6. The early ones (3VZFE) have an iron block but
are pretty bullet proof. You can pick up an early Camry for about £500.
I've lived a life that's full.
I've traveled each and ev'ry highway.
But more, much more than this,
I did it side-ah-ways.
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 25/4/06 at 09:07 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Tim 45
Duratec HE is about 95 dry
Pinto IIRC is about 150, boat anchor would be lighter TBH but is cheap power
Zetec about 20kg lighter
And well the XE is off the scales
[Edited on 24/4/06 by Tim 45]
The XE is deffinatley lighter than a Pinto...I did a side by side lifting test and I only got a slight hernia trying to lift the XE...
I would liked to have used the Duratec V6 as well, but I can't imagine how it could possibly be double the weight of the inline 4. Maybe
uranium pistons, lead conrods?
[Edited on 25/4/06 by MikeRJ]
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bimbleuk
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| posted on 25/4/06 at 10:03 AM |
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Hmmm I was seriously looking at the Duratec V6 for my Striker but as I couldn't find an "off the shelf" gearbox adapter so I stayed
with my usual choice of a Toyota engine.
I can remember not being put off by the weight at the time but its been a while since I built the Striker so don't have the figures I dug up.
The other factor for me was the height of the engine. The length was no problem but it is a tall engine especially for a Striker chassis. Custom sump
required at the very least.
I was always impressed by the Razor V8 in the 750MC championship as it was quite often beating the RAW Striker with a bike engine.
[Edited on 25/4/06 by bimbleuk]
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tks
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| posted on 25/4/06 at 10:26 AM |
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yeah
quote:
Duratec 150kg MAX inc gearbox (yes its true, i have seen it weighed)
Easy 200, possible 260bhp
car weight 580kg WET
power to weight roughly 448 bhp/tonne
Smiles all round
260BHP out of a 4pot duratec would be the same as 220 out of a R1 wich is also
not a strange figure... will the 260 BHP duratec do that with standard internals?
Turbo?
BEC wil always rule out CEC wy?
HAYABUSA TRUBO 350Bhp...
won“t make the BHP/Tonne figure..
after all its just a matter of money and taste...
with money decideing your taste..
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 25/4/06 at 11:49 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by tks
BEC wil always rule out CEC wy?
HAYABUSA TRUBO 350Bhp...
And how long is that engine likely to last? Not very long with that kind of stress...
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cossey
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| posted on 25/4/06 at 02:49 PM |
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busa turbos can go upto 700bhp so 350 isnt really that high it should last several years if you are careful and do the turbo conversion properly.
unfortunately the cost would be atleast £5k more likely £7k but then a 260bhp duratec would be also very silly money.
for more normal money you can get a 200bhp duratec (new engine about £2.5k ish including tbs etc to get you to 200bhp) for that you could have a new
r1 also at 200bhp but at 58kg rather than 150kg.
in the end the duratec is more user friendly but isnt going to be as quick.
back on topic
isnt the jag v6 based on the duratec if so that has a fairly healthy 235bhp with possibly alot more if you mange to get some bike tbs to fit and
change the ecu.
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stevebubs
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| posted on 25/4/06 at 04:38 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by greggors84
So take all that off, a couple of decent 4-2-1 exhaust
Ahem...it's a V6.....
[Edited on 25/4/06 by stevebubs]
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Tim 45
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| posted on 25/4/06 at 08:40 PM |
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[quotefor more normal money you can get a 200bhp duratec (new engine about £2.5k ish including tbs etc to get you to 200bhp) for that you could have a
new r1 also at 200bhp but at 58kg rather than 150kg.
in the end the duratec is more user friendly but isnt going to be as quick.
back on topic
isnt the jag v6 based on the duratec if so that has a fairly healthy 235bhp with possibly alot more if you mange to get some bike tbs to fit and
change the ecu.
The jag 2.0 i think is the normal duratec found in mondeos, so it may well be the V6 found in mondeos also.
As an aside, it is also worth bearing in mind that the duratec vs bec is that the duratec has a pretty much flat torque curve all the way to 8k rpm,
which means that its pulling power throughout the rev range i phenominal. The 2.3 peaks at 153lbs/ft (standard) around 4000rpm and holds it
throughout the range, the 'busa needs to be doing about 8-9000 and produces ~100lb/ft standard.
Of course the noise of a 'busa is incredible
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RazMan
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| posted on 25/4/06 at 09:12 PM |
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I have a hunch that the Jag Duratec has got a different intake system and reworked heads - it is also the 3 litre version. Otherwise it is identical.
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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DIY Si
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| posted on 25/4/06 at 09:14 PM |
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What would be the cheapest? The ford 220 or the jag 3 litre? Would they be much difference in power once fitted with new exhausts/inlets/tb's
etc?
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jon_boy
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| posted on 25/4/06 at 09:22 PM |
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Extrude honed inlet manifolds was one of the main differences with the st 220. To be honest with 5 grand i think even i could manage more than 300bhp
from a car engine.
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DIY Si
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| posted on 25/4/06 at 09:30 PM |
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£5k? I've got no intention of spending that on an engine. I want a v6, but also want 230/240+bhp to make it worth the effort/expense of the
extra exhaust and inlet and to counter the extra weight.
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RazMan
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| posted on 25/4/06 at 09:44 PM |
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There are always lots of ST24 / ST200 /ST220 engines on eBay. I have seen some engines go for as little as £200! 
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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cossey
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| posted on 25/4/06 at 10:01 PM |
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theres a st24 on there at the moment for £50 but it has done 80k.
the 3l wont weigh much more than the 2.5l and will have more power potential but they probably cost a fair bit more. (no idea how much tbh)
either way with a decent tubular exhaust and maybe even tbs(as much for sound as perfomance) then you can have a very quicker car with a relaxed power
delivery. just go easy on boosting the torque as it will be hairy enough as it is.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 25/4/06 at 10:47 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Tim 45
Duratec HE is about 95 dry
Pinto IIRC is about 150, boat anchor would be lighter TBH but is cheap power
Zetec about 20kg lighter
And well the XE is off the scales
[Edited on 24/4/06 by Tim 45]
what's this load of old toerag!!!
VX XE is lighter than a bloody pinto!!! It's a fraction heavier than a Zetec, but then it makes approximately 35hp more in std form too so
pretty damn good in my book!
(bog std 2.0 zetec on throttle bodies = approx 170hp, bog std XE on throttle bodies = 204hp)
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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