Would there be any interest in a kit car amateur 24 hour race for summer 2008?
Open to all. (obvious safety inspections etc) Teams of max 4 drivers etc
Would need to sort out details, but am part of one of the WRC stage teams and I could probably persuade them to help out incl. marshalls etc.
We could run various categories & perhaps get some support from various suppliers in case of repairs etc.
I don't think there could be a better test for all out hard work and engineering.
If there is enough interest then I will look into getting things off the ground.
It could be a fantastic weekend out for everyone.
bobster
p.s. if there are any guys on here that would be interested in helping organise then please let me know.

Sounds like a good idea Bobster......not sure if my car will be finished though!

Where were you thinking?

This is not about big budget race teams, but about guys like us and our friends that fancy a challenge. For this event, it's definitely the taking part that counts. I can already see 10 guys helping someone out, welding new wishbone brackets on to get someone going again.
There are several options, either a dedicated track with all the facilities, or a disused airfield where gazeebos would have to do for pits and where we could provide loos, power etc.
I'm sure we could get some sponsership from one of the manufacturers or kit car magazines to help us all out. Try and do it without making it too expensive.

just got off the phone with the wrc stage team deputy commander and he recons that they will be able to get out marshalls, safety etc and could also run the race for us. up to us now to see who's interested

you say amateur - but would that still mean its restricted to full ARDS race licence holders??

Doubt my car would be ready - got to sell my Saxo VTR in order to donate most of the proceeds to Malc at Yorkshire Engines in exchange for a ZX10R engine yet. Maybe 2009 hey!!

need some input on that (racing licence). Safety is obviously paramount but I want any kit car drivers/builders to be able to compete if poss.

I think to be honest you will find that you could run into problems as if it's an official race then all drivers will certainly have to have done their ARDS.

But saying that I have seen this kind of thing started and then lead onto big things.

I would suggest you are looking at a massive piece of organisation but if you're up for it then it could be worth a shot!

Rich.

rich,

I agree that it needs to be properly sorted, especially if it's going to be held on a dedicated track.
However, there are lots of guys here that could get sorted by the latter half of next year.
I reckon if we can get 20-30 teams we would have a great weekend.
bobster

What if you run it as a 24hr track day with say overtaking only allowed in certain areas to keep the risk down. Highest number of laps at the end takes it.

Steve

i think you are right, and we need to get the balance right.
The main objective is obviously to test the build quality and durability of our cars. (bloody good snagging exercise as well - if it survives that then...)
However, i think there needs to be some time component as well. Why else do we put hyabusa engines in a 500kg gokart.
bobster

any classification as a race will come under MSA regs iirc , while you dont need to do that , youd have to have a minimum insurance to satisfy health and safety .

you need a method of calculating the winner without timing .

road rallying gets away with it , the quickest over a stage wins but that would only be a private stage , the rest is below 30mph average .

i reckon the first thing to do is set numbers , then you can work out insurance . marshals etc .

even having 12 teams with 4 cars is 48 cars to look after .

Love the idea,

What about setting your trip counter odometer to 0, and at the end, see who has the most miles ?

What about a 24h shakedown ?


I'm sure it could be arranged to benefit army/raf charities, if they can help with a venue

[Edited on 11-12-07 by takumi]

yes. now we're on the right track.
We make it a weekend.
24 hour endurace 'race' at a track, airfield or army land. Have plenty of support. Most laps wins.
Teams of - 1 car with max 4 drivers - as many mechanics/support crew as you can persuade, bribe etc
If the army were interested in providing location/facilities then would be very happy for the proceeds to go to charity. WRC teams could probably also get recovery to support the race.

I would definitely have an interest in this event, well worth looking at the GOME event at Mallory, this is not a "race" hence no need for an MSA licence.

I think i could get a team together for a 24 Hour sounds like a top idea..


Could be a time trial with teams set off at intervals so no one is " racing " ?


Jason



[Edited on 11/12/07 by short track 123]

GOME is road legal cars only, do you know if the same will be true of this? My car will be runing by then, but will not be road registered.

Very interetsed though.

I've just got to make 3 friends.

don't see why it should need to be road legal only.
any thoughts on possible venues?

Hi, I like the idea of this.

Just wondering if it may be worth making the 1st one a 12 hour endurance drive and see how it works out. If it's a success make the following year a 24 hour endurance drive.

I'd be happy to work on posters and press releases and logo designs if needed.

Keep us updated.

Steve.

steve,
thanks for your offer. will keep you posted.
The advantage of 24 hours is that people will have time to fix problems and then continue and will also allow 4 drivers to be involved which means a reasonable team. However, if the general consensus is for 12 hours then we'll look at that.
my preference would be for 24 hours - a proper test in a recognised format!

quote:

---

Originally posted by bobster
steve,
thanks for your offer. will keep you posted.
The advantage of 24 hours is that people will have time to fix problems and then continue and will also allow 4 drivers to be involved which means a reasonable team. However, if the general consensus is for 12 hours then we'll look at that.
my preference would be for 24 hours - a proper test in a recognised format!

---

Just to throw an idea into the ring - how about organising it as a charity event?? Would that get around the classification of being a competitive event and so negating the requirement for ARDS, as well as raising money for a good cause (or 20!!). Pence per lap would at least allow teams to have an element of competition - and throw in a few spot prizes from a few sponsors (there must be plenty of registered traders who would be onboard??) for fastest lap in class etc.

Just an idea - could generate a lot of outside interest too through the press etc??

charity event sounds good.
As you say, teams can get sponsored per lap etc - that'll make my friends and family put their money where their mouths are - they are always expecting me to break down.

following a discussion off this thread we are thinking of not limiting the number of drivers in a team. That way everyone in a team that wants to can have a go, and i think may reduced the risks of tired mistakes.

A couple of points that you may like to consider.

Limit the size of the fuel tank.
Each team relays two cars. Like the Birkett

Limiting the tank to a mandatory size will slow the larger engine cars to conserve fuel and reduce the chance of a car being raced with a 200 litres stored all over the car.

Apart from speed/ability differences, the most dangerous part of a long distance event is the refuelling stop. Having two cars will reduce the chance of petrol being spilled and the driver of the next car will be buckled in correctly.

Croix in France (an hour from Dover) would be an interesting circuit to hold the event . May get round the MSA issues.

I agree, Croix en Ternois is a really good track, and there are plenty of hotels in the local village, and the local are very friendly towards racers. Only thing is it is a very narrow track (my friend described it as a large go kart track) It is also fairly short, which would make it very competitive because an extra couple of minutes for fuel stops/driver changes over the whole 24hrs could equate to quite a few laps.

The shorter the circuit the less marshalls you need. The men in orange will need to be rotated during the event.

The circuit is more chassis than engine biased so the speed differentials would be far less than Snett or heaven forbid Mallory.

I believe it to be a lot easier to secure a permit in France than here. No ARDS etc

I was wondering the reason behind 'France' of all places..

I think we should try to keep the ideas as simple as possible..

I'd prefer a 12hr 'testing' session, rather than a full-bore 24hr.. just to test the format, and organisation of it first time round..

For the same reason I think we should do our best to come up with a UK venue..

France!! Wont be very "locost" then - would mean a 500 mile round trip for me before any other costs (such as ferry with car) and i am only as far North as Cheshire!!

France reduces the cost, hassle and MSA issues.

Circuit hire in the UK is now very expensive and the insurance premium etc is high.

Brands will cost 30 to 40 K to hire and be very difficult to get without a large down payment.

Keeping the entrance fee down will be the major concern for the organisers.

Plus it will be far easier to "sell" the idea to the gf/wife than a runway in Yorkshire!

raf marham do charity events , a 12 hr seems more realistic .

youll defintely need more than 1 car per team , its alot safer , otherwise everybody has to have expensive refuelling equipment - who wants to be showered in 10 litres of fuel in a hot car/exhaust .

they all need a transponder thingemy jig for laps .

Seems like there are some good ideas here.
1) I agree that a reasonably level playing field is required regards fuel capacity. Perhaps a limit per fill, decided by category.
2) With regards a 12hr vs 24 hour race then lets take a poll if we can get enough people interested.
3) Marshalls shouldn't be a problem, I have access to over 700 and a full stage team who would be happy to help us out.
4) I accept that refuelling stops are a potential danger zone. As an endurance event I think we need to limit the number of cars per team. (could be done in categories). I suggest that we enforce a minimum time for the refuelling stops. ie forced to stop for 5 mins. This will ensure that everything is done safely and any other checks that need to be done can be done. Also we don't get the car screaming off as the fuel filler is removed and no expensive fuelling gear would be needed.
5) Definitely worth considering France as a venue. But it would be good to find a track in the centre of GB, so we can all get there in reasonable time etc.
6) Lets keep throwing ideas out there and then maybe those that wish to help organise this could get together for a beer to get this thing off the ground.
bobster

To get around the fuel in the GOME event cars can only be refueled at the paddock pump, may mean queuing but its the same for all and with two cars its up to the team to time it when the pumps are available.

I may upset a few but personally I think it should be limited to road registered cars with an current MOT and tax, if not someone will turn up with a race car on a trailer guaranteed.

Keep the word "race" out of it and costs will be lower.

A venue in France would see me out, costs in both time and Money would negate it for me.

Hope you dont think I'm been negative, just offering an opinion.

what about people who arent registered on the road , but dont have a race car ?

surely that would be down to the organisers discretion , ie no slicks , definable 7 type chassis etc . IF mine doesnt sell , id like to take part , but i cant see an SVA or MOT in the future , but its no race car .

you could also measure the fuel consumption in 'qualification' , and given a 20% discrepancy , that sets your allowable fuel supply for the 'time trial' meaning no sandbagging , and no huge motors either

I did say at the risk of upsetting some people.

When you leave things to discretion there will always be arguments I'm afraid.

"well you let him enter in that"

The fueling issue seems pretty simple to get around from a safety point of view really - dont allow the same car / driver to go out once they need to refuel. If you have a tiny tank that only lasts 20 mins then you have to change after 20 mins (and then have an hour minimum to refuel so can be done safely).

I guess the France issue has to be considered then - cheaper hire costs against ferry costs. RAF bases seem a good idea mind if they do charity events at little or no cost. Loads of runoff area for the inexperienced!!!

im not upset at all .

im sure theres a lot on here who are in final stages - who wont be road registered by then .

i find that theres a lack of places to run my car to test/evaluate , apart from track days which i suppose this is just a larger version .

too many guys on here and other build sites that have track cars or not road legal. The best way to do it would be to have them in a separate class.
I have spoken to a number of circuit organisers today, most are reasonably keen. 2 main options would be
1) 2x8-12hour stints with a 12 hour park ferme in between.
2) 1x12 hour stint with a 'testing' and possibly categorising (can't use qualifying as it is too close to 'racing' session the day before.

I would hope there is a balance between having fun and closeing potential performance loopholes. I have raced in many endurance events and can honestly say that it is great way of spending a weekend. Its very different to 15mins round Brands

Probably worth a Reality Check Point on costs.

Most consumable items will be trashed, things break, tyres and brakes will not last 24 hours and fuel will not come for free. Anyone not contemplating taking their car on a trailer is nuts.

Most endurance events are won in the pits, hence the fuel capacity limit. Cars will be adapted for a running in a long distance event by the drivers.

Not allowing race cars or non SVA vehicles will rule out a lot of runners. Looking at the spec of most of the cars on this site, the only advantage I would have is already having numbers on the side!

Running on a cheap control tyre may help keep the cost down and perhaps gain some trade support.

Perhaps a class structure to keep it interesting?

Up to 2000cc
Over 2000cc
BEC

I think you will find any race involving MSA licensed race drivers would have to be sanctioned by the MSA. A good idea though

It has been said but a 24hr ( or 12hr ) track day would be a way to get round the msa licence thing.
Bobster if you need some help I would be intrested in helping out. Not sure what i could do but the offer is there.

Regard
Jason

I've had a chat with both silverstone and the guys that manage the tracks at snetterton, oulton park and brands hatch. The silverstone guys are keen and i have to email the other crew with details.
I am currently thinking that the best option would be to book a track for 1 day and run a 12 hour endurance 'race'. Maximum laps wins, with a bar-b-que and party afterwards. unlimited drivers but a minimum time per driver. minimum fueling stop time (say 5 mins). cars categories to be assigned. All cars would need to acheive the minimum track day requirements (may be some additional requirements, such as max noise level etc). Any thing i've forgotten? Costs are likely to be in the region of £3-400 per team. (if there are say 6 drivers per team this is around £50-60 each plus fuel and comsumables!!!). I am hoping to persuade some sponsership as well. If it is a hit thee we can maybe expand some of these ideas for next year. what do you guys think?

I'll have to speak to work but they/we might be interested in providing datalogging support. We make GPS logging things and software to produce reports of lap times and loads of other stuff, maximum apex speeds blah blah.

If this thing gets off the ground let me know, pretty sure my car won't be ready for it but would be interested to come along and spectate / provide technical services

we're Racelogic (www.racelogic.co.uk) btw, I am thinking in terms of loaning each team a performacebox for some kind of sponsorship.. have to check with work tho!

We supported the Top Gear 24h that was on TV recently.. not that Clarkson listens when you tell him he's taking the wrong line etc

[Edited on 16/12/07 by blueshift]

that sounds great. thanks chris

I think the 12hr is more realistic.

Me and a friend would like to enter both our cars in 1 team, and drive them alternatively with 2 drivers per car say, this would both cut down wear on each car, and spread the cost abit

I love the idea. bring it on...

I suppose the only difficult thing would be geting a big bunch of the transponders to time each car.. Unless you want to trust people to do it manually written down on paper.. 'oh the old days...


engine conversion first..

[Edited on 16-12-07 by takumi]

[Edited on 16-12-07 by takumi]

Would be interested in entering a team for this...

I think it's a great idea. I've done a few 24 hour races before and they are great fun. Personally I think the best thing to do is as was said in a previous post.

Call it a 24 endurence distance test then it gets around alot of 'red tape'. Having the test at a race circuit could be a double edged sword it has it's advantages and disadvantages. I believe what someone said earlier about contacting the RAF or Army about using say for example a disused airstrip is a good idea as it would keep costs very low and say we'll donate all the money raised from entry fees to an armed forces charity, plus it's good publicity for the armed forces and they could also enter teams free for example.

Seeing as this is going to be an endurence test being measured by distance you can get very cheap digital tacometers that clip into the car and cannot be falsified this would be a good way to measure the distances.

Tyres shouldn't be a problem really control tyres a think are the best way to go and if we just stick with standard road tyres they will last a 24 hour distance. Looking a Le Mans cars they only cover aroun 3500miles in 24 hours the locost car i would expect to cover around 2000miles if that. Getting a tyre supplier involved would not cause many problems.

Fuel again would not cause many problems as we elect a fuel supplier or just used the track pump if one is available as suggested and limit the amount of fuel people and fill up with. Say for example the person who has the smallest tank only hold 5 gallons the other cars should only be allowed to take 5 gallons of fuel to keep things on a even keel.

For any 24 hour test your going to get people that build a one off 'special' to go for outright glory. To minimise the risk of this I think a tier system of classifying cars will be best like say class a for cars upto 1400cc, class b for cars upto 1600, class c for cars upto 1800cc, class D for cars upto 2000cc and class E for cars 2001cc and above. With the fuel limit in place it would be silly to enter a Rover V8 as it would just drink the fuel in very little time, this I know but i can't really see many people with v8 powered locost's entering this. For each class you would have a class winner and that is the person that covered the most laps with 2nd and 3rd place prizes also being awared.

I got a few more suggestions if the organiser would like to hear them or would like help with the regulations side.

Looks like we're getting the format sorted. If anyone has any contacts in the raf or military then do they think it could be an option. i guess the main problem would be insurance. very happy for proceeds to go to charity.
jt - very happy for you to throw your ideas onto this thread, or u2u me if you'd prefer.