What do you think?
Rescued attachment 1.jpg
Finally finished (apart from a bit of fettling and painting) my front end.
What do you think?
Rescued attachment 1.jpg
And another pic:
Rescued attachment 2.jpg
And another pic:
Rescued attachment 3.jpg
who's lower wishbones are they? as in who made/designed them?
I'm not sure on the bends on the lower bones.
Ned.
Ooo, knew someone would mention them!
But they came from Mr Keenan himelf so I have no doubts or worries at all about them!
They're really nicely made as well.
Top bones are rose jointed so I have maximum control over caster!
Pat...
[Edited on 3/12/05 by Avoneer]
top bone looks awesome!!!
Yeah, shame no one makes them like that 
They could prove useful for a lot of folk!
Better pic of lower bone - the plate is nice and thick and welded down the centres of the 1" thick walled tube!
The'ye not going anywhere!
Pat...
Rescued attachment 4.jpg
Very nice! Can you get internally threaded tube to match the top ball joint on-line?
Nice welding
I'm not too sure about the upper shock mounting though. I reckon it needs a bit more than a lick of paint 
Phil
Next size up on the tiewraps do you reckon, or just a couple more? I can't see a problem with the bend, it's where the plate fastens on the inside and the tube's heavy stuff 3mm wall if it's what Martin uses.
Sure it's 3mm, but I'll ask him out of curiosity.
Though about getting rose jointed bottom as well - but the setting up and variables this would produce hurt my head.
P.S. Martin only made the bottom ones, the top were made to order by Volvorsport on here - nice job as well.
As for the tie wraps, I though I'd use a miniature plastic clamp instead, once I get one of the market tomorrow!
Pat...
Yep, bottom bones will be poly bushed (the one fitted to the chassis is poly bushed, but they are hard to see).
Kink is due to my brackets being further apart than the ones that the plate was originally designed for, but as I said before, they were made by Mr
Keenan and I have no doubts at all about them ever "letting go".
Pat...
After all the mud that was slung at me regarding the underengineered wishbones, it looks as though Mr.Keenan at least, has upped his game.
Well done, those wishbones look about right and acceptable, and if the material sizes are as described, then there should be little to worry about.
Well done, Mr.Keenan.
But why the bend, which compromises an otherwise acceptable appearing design?
Regards,
Syd.
Hi Syd,
Kink is because my moutning brackets were further apart (from my previous bones) than the pre-cut plate and the easiest way to get them to match my
bracket location.
Doesn't bother me one bit!
Pat...
Russ
You can get pre threaded tube from lolocost but you will still need to run a tap or a threadchaser through once they are welded as the tube is bound
to distort a bit. Aparently the cheapest useful thread chaser is one Machine mart sel for cleaning spark plug threads, it is Metric fine 18 X 1.5
Best of luck
Caber
I like the fusible (bent) lower link!
Pat, how do you plan to adjust the castor with the upper wishbone?
Yes Rorty, you would say that.
But,..any properly qualified professional engineer would know that the bend compromises the integrity in compression.
Then again, I did say 'properly qualified professional engineer'. 
Syd.
Cheap shot...
Not aimed at MK in any way....
It's creditable that he has upped tube size and thickness, moved the shock mount out, and chnged the plate arrangement. Looks very similar to GTS
stuff.....
And I appreciate why the bend is there, but it is just a pity that the tubes were bent to fit the (already cut?) plate, and new plates weren't
made for the application.
Syd.
Yep, fair enough Syd, but that's that. At the end of the day, they can only be a vast improvement on the original book design that have served so
many for so well.
Rorty - I plan on packing out the top rose joints with washers and hence the top mounting points can be moved towards the front of the car or towards
the back of the car quite a bit in either direction, adjusting the top ball joint in relation to the bottom one. It worries me a bit you asking that
as it looks straight forward unless you're asking an open question and you know something I don't - which won't be a bad thing as I
take on board everything you say and adjust things accordingly.
Cheers,
Pat...
Don't worry!!
The washer packing is a commonly used setup and is great. Yes it is a bit of a pain and you end up needing about 10 fingers to hold all the washers
but it's not the sort of thing you do very often, and it's cheap and effective. It's what I will be doing on my car when I replace the
bought upper wishbones with proper ones made by me!
A common setup on autograss cars, certainly nothing to worry about.
Would it be bad practice to adjust the castor using the threads of the rosejoints? I know this would also alter the camber, but that change could be adjusted out.
Yeah, I though about this and have a load of adjustment in many planes so I'll do whicever is easiest when the times comes.
Glad I din't do the bottom ones as well - that would be a nightmare to set up.
Pat...
quote:
Originally posted by Avoneer
Rorty - I plan on packing out the top rose joints with washers and hence the top mounting points can be moved towards the front of the car or towards the back of the car quite a bit in either direction, adjusting the top ball joint in relation to the bottom one. It worries me a bit you asking that as it looks straight forward unless you're asking an open question and you know something I don't - which won't be a bad thing as I take on board everything you say and adjust things accordingly.
Cheers,
Pat...
Yep - thanks anyway Rorty.
Now where did I put all those 1/2" washers???
Pat...
Sorry for being stupid, but where does the binding come in?
Rescued attachment Upper Bone Avoneer2.jpg
There is a hidden spout behind the cable tie......all hell lets loose when it happens too
Fumes.....i blame the fumes!
..and the E numbers in smarties....
The rod ends can be adjusted in and out, but only if they are adjusted by the exact same number of turns (and that will only adjust camber).
If you screw, say, the front one out and screw the rear one in an uneven number of turns (in an attempt to gain more positive castor), the distance
between the rod ends will increase. As the rod ends are a precision item, there isn't the amount of give in them to absorb the growth in the
distance between them. If you could even physically force the (adjusted) rod ends back into their respective brackets, the compression within the
wishbone will act like a spring, forcing side loads on the ferules, the rod ends and the brackets. That will cause the rod ends to bind somewhat and
will lead to premature wear and possibly failure. That's if the wishbone doesn't give way first (if the car's driven like that).
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
surely we are talking less than tenths of mm here, I am sure that less than precise initial installation (shimming in )will give worse results
[Edited on 5/12/05 by Mark Allanson]
The rod ends can be adjusted in and out, but only if they are adjusted by the exact same number of turns (and that will only adjust camber).
If you screw, say, the front one out and screw the rear one in an uneven number of turns (in an attempt to gain more positive castor), the distance
between the rod ends will increase. As the rod ends are a precision item, there isn't the amount of give in them to absorb the growth in the
distance between them. If you could even physically force the (adjusted) rod ends back into their respective brackets, the compression within the
wishbone will act like a spring, forcing side loads on the ferules, the rod ends and the brackets. That will cause the rod ends to bind somewhat and
will lead to premature wear and possibly failure. That's if the wishbone doesn't give way first (if the car's driven like that).
wierd, I answered Rorty's post, and now its one below mine, read rorty's first then mine and it should make sense
Gulvalish
Order posts wrong getting keep
posts order deleting paste cut and keep doing
Did you get the last golden ticket then
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Allanson
surely we are talking less than tenths of mm here, I am sure that less than precise initial installation (shimming in )will give worse results
[Edited on 5/12/05 by Mark Allanson]
did that read ticket or rivet?
Rorty,
exactly my point, who in their garage is going to be able to shim to thou's correctly, especially after torquing up?
The rod ends are the wrong way round anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Allanson
Rorty,
exactly my point, who in their garage is going to be able to shim to thou's correctly, especially after torquing up?
As it happens i happened to have some from the "yellow" team all in a nice wee box and in lots of different guages.......thanx EJ
quote:
Originally posted by Triton
The rod ends are the wrong way round anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by Rorty
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Allanson
Rorty,
exactly my point, who in their garage is going to be able to shim to thou's correctly, especially after torquing up?
Anyone with a box of shims!
quote:
Originally posted by Rorty
quote:
Originally posted by Triton
The rod ends are the wrong way round anyway.
I was waiting for that to come up. The 1/2" rod ends most people use are over sized for the application and if people are using high spec joints, will be perfectly OK used horizontally.
Over square needed for trailing arms...ie:
1/2 UNF thread with 3/8UNF i/d spherical bearing.
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Allanson
quote:
Originally posted by Rorty
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Allanson
Rorty,
exactly my point, who in their garage is going to be able to shim to thou's correctly, especially after torquing up?
Anyone with a box of shims!
To tenth of mm fine, but not to thou's, thats just unrealistic. 0.001mm is VERY small, nearly a micron.
quote:
Originally posted by Rorty
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Allanson
surely we are talking less than tenths of mm here, I am sure that less than precise initial installation (shimming in )will give worse results
[Edited on 5/12/05 by Mark Allanson]
Tenths will cause problems, but shims are measured in thousandths and will get the spacing correct. The wishbone (disconnected from the upright) should fall under it's own weight if the spacing is correct. If it doesn't, you'll be replacing the rod ends regularly. $$$$$
quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
Would you say that 1/2" rod ends are an appropriate size for trailing arms as well?
[Edited on 5/12/05 by MikeRJ]
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Allanson
quote:
Originally posted by Rorty
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Allanson
surely we are talking less than tenths of mm here, I am sure that less than precise initial installation (shimming in )will give worse results
[Edited on 5/12/05 by Mark Allanson]
Tenths will cause problems, but shims are measured in thousandths and will get the spacing correct. The wishbone (disconnected from the upright) should fall under it's own weight if the spacing is correct. If it doesn't, you'll be replacing the rod ends regularly. $$$$$
We started off in metric, thats why i couldn't understand why you thought a thou was easily attainable
[Edited on 5/12/05 by Rorty]
. Grandma...eggs? "surely we are talking less than tenths of mm here,"
"surely we are talking less than tenths of mm here,"
"surely we are talking less than tenths of mm here,"
It quite a long time since imperial was used in machine shops, and even when it was, a 'tenth' always refered to a tenth of a thou (inch)
and only refered to when precission grinding.
Children - my head hurts now.
Both rose joints are very high quality from TAD Ltd and will be both screwed in the same amount and shimmed with washers.
I'm sure they'll be fine and probably a lot better than some other Locost builds that I have seen.
Let's all smile and be happy.
Pat
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Allanson
"surely we are talking less than tenths of mm here,"
"surely we are talking less than tenths of mm here,"
"surely we are talking less than tenths of mm here,"
It quite a long time since imperial was used in machine shops, and even when it was, a 'tenth' always refered to a tenth of a thou (inch) and only refered to when precission grinding.
I used to work in a machine shop in the 80's, we were transfering to metric to get ISO acreditation (MOD work).
The boxes of shims were refered to a 'slips', ultra accurate, ground blocks used for comparative measuring
Surely you could adjust castor by unequal turns of the joint. Done in racing all the time, for fine tuning.
Just need to shim them differently to account for the differences in slack. A little movement won't hurt. A fingernail thickness is accurate
enough.
You don't have to be e member of MENSA to work this out. Then again, some are in no danger of an invite to that special club, either!
AS for the rodends..I use 10mmSKF's as a matter of course in the streetrod chassis I do. These ends are rated to over 6K lbs in tension.
That's each!!!! So, each rod end can carry 3-4 average locosts on its own. How strong do you need it to be?
If you can do the maths(and that is a big IF for one or two 'experts' here), you could get away with much smaller, but the SVA inspectors
get a bit peculiar with small, highly rated parts. In their words, "They just dont LOOK big enough, even if they are overstrength"
Therein lies the problem with the uneducated.
Syd.
It has been proven, that even a monkey can be taught to use a basic 3d CAD program, so only a few probs for an irish ex-pat.
[Edited on 6/12/05 by Syd Bridge]
syd - How about some pictures of these chassis's you do?
Cheers
Fred WB
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Allanson
I used to work in a machine shop in the 80's, we were transfering to metric to get ISO acreditation (MOD work).
The boxes of shims were refered to a 'slips', ultra accurate, ground blocks used for comparative measuring
1980's stuff is ultra modern for our workshop...lololol, We don't touch stuff newer than 1970's
lololol....Dinosaurs are alive and well in darkest Surrey.
Handbags at the ready
Sid, WTF prompted that outburst....
I try to form an opinion of people by what they do, not what they say. You keep hinting at your extensive background in car fabrication, and
engineering knowledge, so I am genuinely interested in what you are currently building or have built in the past.
I think that everyone builds to their own level of satisfaction, and this will vary widely depending on the resources and skills available to each
person.
Regards
Fred WB
Sid, WTF prompted that outburst....
I try to form an opinion of people by what they do, not what they say. You keep hinting at your extensive background in car fabrication, and
engineering knowledge, so I am genuinely interested in what you are currently building or have built in the past.
I think that everyone builds to their own level of satisfaction, and this will vary widely depending on the resources and skills available to each
person.
Regards
Fred WB
Fred That's Syd with a .
Hence my comment
Mick
Fred, if you look at the profile of that last post by Syd, you'll probably notice that it wasn't really his. (1st Post) Just someone on here
trying to wind him up possibly
Hold tight though, this could be an interesting ride...............
[Edited on 6-12-05 by Hellfire]
Okay, hadn't noticed the "noobie"
Fred WB
quote:
Originally posted by Rorty
That would be like saying my shoes would fit you.
There are so many variables such as brand, material, construction, method of mounting, weight of car, length of trailing arm, horse power etc. etc.
Without knowing what the car is, I would say not. It seems light for any trailing arm.
If you want to email me with more details, I'll give it some thought.
Syd Bridge is not Syd Bridge. Noobie.
The genuine article has no . full stop, period, call it what you want.
The Syd Bridge. (full stop) is Rorty.
But please, let him carry on, his description of himself is very apt. Concise to the letter.
Just have a good look out for the . full stop if any of his childish posts appear again.
Syd.
And Fred, I'll have a chassis assembled in a couple of days, then I will try and post a pic.
[Edited on 6/12/05 by Syd Bridge]
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Allanson
Sorry for being stupid, but where does the binding come in?
(if only I knew what I were doing!!! all wild guesswork
but I'm picking up another trophy soon, god knows how that happened!!!) 
Hooray, Syd has come out of the woodwork to fire a few more snide insults around and start arguments. It wouldn't be nearly as entertaining if he
left.
I am fortunate enough (?) to have had a similarly inclined friend at university, over the years I have learned to find amusement in it rather than
irritation.
I prefer Syd Bridge. (noobie)
Hi Dave - are you stoking the fire as well?
Pat...
Jeez can we stop the insult firing!!!
Don't judge people unless you know who they are. Syd has offered a LOT of advice to me regarding my race car, all of it off this forum and away
from stupid snide remarks.
Lets get in the real world and stop acting like twatty kids.
Going back to avoneer's original point................washers work, just use them. Get decent ones and they are exactly the same thickness, can
be 0.75mm or 1mm thick or whatever, then measure the setup needed, count out the washers for each side and bob is your uncle.
There is no need to do anything else.
My next grasser will almost certainly NOT have the adjustable wishbone system in the photos above. This time I will make a jig and use the washer
adjustment system.
Hi
I would keep the pictured upper wishbone.To me,this is the way it should be done,when using rose joints:they can't
be stressed by mounting failure,and setting caster is very easy, without a third hand
Syd :
which type of SKF joints do jou use ? there are so many.Do you have a part number?
Regards,Stephan
quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
Jeez can we stop the insult firing!!!
Don't judge people unless you know who they are. Syd has offered a LOT of advice to me regarding my race car, all of it off this forum and away from stupid snide remarks.
Lets get in the real world and stop acting like twatty kids.
What a mess.
Washers...any washers...will work fine, as long as the wishbone is free to pivot. Use common sense rather than slagging people off.
I'm sure if you trawled the bearing catalogues you could find a suitable 8mm rod end, but why go to all the bother? Most Locost builders
don't know about the various grades and strengths of the huge array of rod ends available, so it's safer to say use a 1/2" rod end
because then, even if they purchase a lesser quality joint, it will more than likely be up to the job. Also, 1/2" rod ends must be the most
widely available size; every bearing shop I've ever been into has at least double the amount of half-inchers than any other size. They buy
1/2" rod ends in bulk and we see the price benefit. Many 1/2" rod ends are cheaper than commensurate 3/8" and 5/16".
And the rubber button is?
But my rod ends are 12mm 
Pat...
What grade are they Pat?....
Ask Syd, he understands metric!
heh heh really boys!!!
Suck on my 12mm Metric ball
Rescued attachment Ball.jpg
I wasn't being sarcastic, really. Ask Syd, he has helped a great many on here behind the scenes, mainly U2U, and yes, he does understand metric.
Can you explain it to me know then matey....
Metric is the yellow smarties!
Keep taking the blue ones and it will all disappear!
My trailing arms have been running with 12mm spherical joints for 4 years now with no problems. I don't think the .4mm difference between them and 1/2" will have much effect Pat.
I wasn't worried one bit - it's all these other unhappy thread hijackers
But thanks for the re-assurance.
Pat...
You should've said you need 12mm washers, Pat. I have LOADS of 'em!
BTW - we used the same technique to adjust caster on the LMP.