Building a MK Indy with R1 and ordered the "adaptor flange"



from MK thinking it would fit some part on the Sierra prop shaft but now with all donator parts all over the floor in the garage I see that thats not the case. What should I bolt on the flange?
Could I please see some pictures of your propshaft/engine-interface?

When I am here writing I could just as well countinue.
In sweden we have to have reverse gear to get it through SVA. In addition I have been thinking if the 3,64 lsd I have will be plesant for highway use.
These two issues could be solved by using the typ9 gearbox from the donator
. If I mount it I will first of all have reverse but also fifth gear witch will give me a overdrive like using a app. 3,00 diff.
The only negative thing is of course the weight. Some extra 30kg. But besides the reverse rule we also have to pass the weight/horsepower for SVA. My car would have to weigh about 640kg at SVA in order to get pass. With this in mind an extra 30 would not be so bad. Nothing says I will keep the gearbox as long as the thing with SVA is done. I could always put a straight propshaft in there later if the gearbox cause problems or slow me down to much.
Now to the question:
How should I solve the ingoing shaft problem? The ingoing shaft of the gearbox is normaly resting in a bearing in the flywheel witch it will not in my application. I need a support bearing of some kind. Maybe replacing the part that the clutch bearing slides on and but a machined bracket on there instead. Could I use the splines for the bearing?
I was also thinking to either machine a adaptor flange for the clutch splines or just build something out of the clutch....(what do you call it?)..clutch friction plate?

What do you think?

I am also looking for pictures of the steering column extension. I am building my car RHD and have never seen how it is done since everyone elso drives LHD here. Anyone using the MK part?

Greatful for any help...

[Edited on 11/11/06 by Fredrik Jönsson]

[Edited on 11/11/06 by Fredrik Jönsson]

How will the gearbox cope with the torque load in the lower gears? It's nothing to worry about if it's only gonna be to get through the SVA test.
Nice idea though.

Oh dear! I think you need some help from fellow swedes as to how to deal with SVA, but fitting a sierra gearbox in this way would be a ridiculous waste of time and effort, you may as well junk the bike engine idea and fit the whole donor set up, all things that should probably have been explored in more depth before purchase maybe?
MK can extend the steering column and the propshaft you have needs modifying with a suitable flange to meet the adaptor you have. You can fit electric reverse or a reverse gearbox, but power to weight still an issue.
Maybe you get SVA in the UK?

I'm sure all these questions and the pictures you want can be found on here with a search of the forum and the photo archives.
(Have a look in Hellfire's, pics of everything in there and on the super website)

Best regards

Thanks.

No the SVA will not be an problem and the rules were known before ordering.
I still want to use a bike engine.
The alternative to my crazy idea is to use electric reverse witch is allowed for SVA. We have the weight/horsepower rule in sweden but on the other hand we do not have any rules for emissions like you have in UK. We do not need to cover every sharp edge either...
Torque in lower gears is interesting. The R! has a max of app. 110 Nm. Does not the Sierra got more?

My MK was 495kgs so your nowhere near even with an extra 30 kgs of gearbox and adaptor, unless you pour lead into th chassis tubes and fill your tyres with water

The plan is steelplates in the floor under the seats and an heavy fueltank +battery. Maybe I replace the alu floor with steel instead...
Tools and jack are also allowed when weighing. And a spare tire. There are BEC registrated in sweden...

Similar post.......
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=31386

Yes. Thats it. Dont know this Lozec but I sent him a messege.
It should be ebough with 120kg or something. Another way is to use realy heavy wheels. Scorpio wheels...

Its not actually that silly an idea. I have considered the same thing as if I fit a bike engine I will need reverse as my drive is on a slope. A stripped out type 9 would only weigh about 30kg which would have a negligible impact on the performance as bike powerd cars still perform well carrying a passenger of 80kg or more a starter motor and ring gear plus bigger battery etc would also be quite heavy.
It would give an option of 1/1 direct .85 overdrive in 5th and reverse, the main worry is if it could cope with the torque in the lower gears from the bike engine. I belive a bike engine is geared 1.5 - 1 or similiar on the primary drive so the engine torque would be increased to this plus the gearbox reduction.
The input could be arranged by making a new front bearing housing to replace the sleeve that the release bearing runs on and maybe a clutch plate centre could be used to transfer the drive to the existing spline if strong enough.
Paul.

quote:

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Originally posted by ReMan
Oh dear! I think you need some help from fellow swedes as to how to deal with SVA, but fitting a sierra gearbox in this way would be a ridiculous waste of time and effort, you may as well junk the bike engine idea and fit the whole donor set up, all things that should probably have been explored in more depth before purchase maybe?
MK can extend the steering column and the propshaft you have needs modifying with a suitable flange to meet the adaptor you have. You can fit electric reverse or a reverse gearbox, but power to weight still an issue.
Maybe you get SVA in the UK?

I'm sure all these questions and the pictures you want can be found on here with a search of the forum and the photo archives.
(Have a look in Hellfire's, pics of everything in there and on the super website)

Best regards

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I think one of Ned's mates fitted a standard ford 4 speed box to a hayabusa Fury to do exactly this. Apparently worked ok but the box had to be solidly mounted..

NED?

Yes, I has to be bolted to the frame. The type9 is perfect since it has a removable clutch cover and can easy be bolted to a flat, vertical surface.
Stripped type9 sound interesting. What can be taken away and still have fourth, fifth and reverse?
Is really the torque at low gears a problem? The strain on the transmission should be a highest before the car is start moving. As soon as it moves the kenetic energy should make it easier on the gearbox.
If you put at trailer behind a Sierra it could be about 3000 kg car to move with a engine that gives 160-190Nm. Since the weight of a BEC is 1/4 of that it should be ok. After all the R1 is only producing max 110 Nm...
I think the weight of the car is the factor that really makes the differens to the gearbox. It will be easier to build up kinetic energy...
When I was to the Newark festival this summer I got a ride in the white "demo car". Ok, it was a blackbird engine but on the other hand we where two in it and I think it really had enough of speed. As Paulf is pointing out the Sierra starter that I fist planed to use weigh 4kg. Then I need a ring gear and a car battery. On top of that I will loose some weight on the propshaft. I think we are looking at 15kg extra weight...
On the other hand the transmission will steal some power...

Some comments from NED would be appriciated. And ofcourse from others too.

The thing that I & I presume the others who have posted here are concered about is that although the torque out put of your engine is within the limits of the type 9 gearbox, that torque figure is then multiplied by the bike gearbox to a level that the type 9 would never see from a car engine.
It may well work ok though if you kept the type 9 in 4th (it is 4th thats a direct drive in a type 9?) whilst having fun, leave 5th for cruising & reverse for, well you work it out!

Thats the plan. 4th is 1:1. The torque produced from the motorcycle engine/gearbox is for sure higher then the one coming out of the carengine but the weight of the Indy should compensate. How much Nm is required before the locost start moving comperedto the 1500kg car (or 3000 if with trailer)?

Anyone who got any information regarding the second issue about the steering column?

quote:

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Originally posted by paulf
Its not actually that silly an idea. I have considered the same thing as if I fit a bike engine I will need reverse as my drive is on a slope.

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No problem. Did not take like that. I'am glad to get your point of view.
30kg is alot but on the other handwe also see 30kg differance from driver to driver...

Drive in forward and roll out backwards What you need is a turntable at the top.

The weight (mass) of the car has no effect on the torque load on the gearbox. Less mass means you go faster for the same force & all of that same force has to come through the gearbox.
The torque limit of a gearbox has got to be high on a direct 1:1 drive straight through the box. What kind of gears are used in these reversing boxes?
It mabye doesnt matter to you but your reverse is going to be very low unless you change up through the bike gears when you use reverse & then back down again to go forward, which would be a pain.

Are you sure? If you put your car against a wall, rev it up to the rpm where you have your max torque and release the clutch the gearbox is loaded with the max torque (if the wheels have the grip). If you just drive away you will not use the max torque especially if the car is light.
Will it not be a differance in load to the gearbox if the car weighs 100kg or 2000kg?
Would I brake the gearbox if I released the clutch with 1st gear on the mc-engine, fifth gear on the Sierrabox and the car on a jack with the wheels in the air?

When it comes to reverase speed it usually is not that fast with electric reverse either....

[Edited on 12/11/06 by Fredrik Jönsson]

Yes I'm pretty sure the torque load doesnt vary with the weight of the car, but there are plenty folks on here with more brains than I have! So come on you boffins & put us straight on this one.
Please dont think I'm being negative about your idea, I like it & would likely try it myself given your circumstances. I'm all for doing something myself rather than just buying all the bits in.
There's only one way to know for sure, build it & try it. Tractor pullers often put 1000hp through a transmission designed for 100 but some times they go bang in a big way!

I got an advise to use the gearbox from a 70ies Volvo instead of the type 9. It is much smaller and has electric overdrive. The ingoing shaft also has the same splines as the outgoing witch simplify the connection to the engine. Just have to figure out the ratios in that box...
Reports will follow...

The gearbox input will experience the torque applied to the input shaft, i'e. full crank torque modified (usually increased) by the gearing from the crank, slightly reduced by inefficiencies.

The reduced weight of the vehicle will allow it to accelerate quicker, so it may spend less time with the peak torque being applied.

At the limit of traction the surplus torque is used to accelerate the rotational inertia , mainly the wheels, until we back off or hit rev limiter.

This ignores any of the torque ripples caused by the fact that the engine provides an impulsive drive accentuated by our desire to fit lightened flywheels. It also ignores ripples due to the response of the effective multiple mass spring assembly that is the drivetrain to the impulsive load as we tend to remove the torsional dampers, and shock loads due to backlash in driveline components

HTH

Cheers,

Colin

"This ignores any of the torque ripples caused by the fact that the engine provides an impulsive drive accentuated by our desire to fit lightened flywheels. It also ignores ripples due to the response of the effective multiple mass spring assembly that is the drivetrain to the impulsive load as we tend to remove the torsional dampers, and shock loads due to backlash in driveline components"

Bloody 'ell!

That would be a god idea if it was an uphill slope , unfortunately it slopes down to my garage. Maybe i will just have to move house.
Paul

quote:

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Originally posted by Peteff
Drive in forward and roll out backwards What you need is a turntable at the top.

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paulf - 13/11/06 at 10:34 PM

What model would that be ? a 240 maybe ?.
Paul.

quote:

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Originally posted by Fredrik Jönsson
I got an advise to use the gearbox from a 70ies Volvo instead of the type 9. It is much smaller and has electric overdrive. The ingoing shaft also has the same splines as the outgoing witch simplify the connection to the engine. Just have to figure out the ratios in that box...
Reports will follow...

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Fredrik Jönsson - 14/11/06 at 06:54 AM

The basic design is present all the way up to a 240 -93 (last year) even if evolution made it 5-speed.
The 4-speed was used in 140/240 from -67 to early 80ths. After that they fitted a electrical activated overdrive that is not that relaiable. It is also an addon overdrive so it will steal power...
The special feature of the early m40 boxes is that it has the same splines configuration on the ingoing shaft as on the outgoing witch make it possible to use standard prop shaft parts from the gearbox to the bike-engine...
The 1,2,3-gears can also be stripped. I do not know how and if it is easy...

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Zaphod - 14/11/06 at 03:02 PM

Why not give Vide Bilservice a call.
What he does not know about Volvo running grear is not worth knowing.

http://www.videbilservice.se/

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hillbillyracer - 14/11/06 at 08:41 PM

Thinking about the torque load on the gerarbox thing, the output of any box has to take the input torque multiplied by whichever ratio is selected.
If you take the torque limit of your gearbox & multiply it by the 1st gear ratio that it would normally have you will get an idea of how much torque can be applied straight through in 4th gear (If I'm wrong here would somebody please correct me).
I cant see the bearings letting go, more like the dogs on the gear or the splines somewhere.

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Fredrik Jönsson - 14/11/06 at 08:57 PM

That should be true if you rev the engine to the rpm for the max torque. When you are up there the car will be rolling and you will run past it quite fast and it will not be a constant load. For the R1 it is 108 Nm at 8500rpm.

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DEAN C. - 25/11/06 at 11:22 AM

quote:

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It may well work ok though if you kept the type 9 in 4th (it is 4th thats a direct drive in a type 9?) whilst having fun, leave 5th for cruising & reverse for, well you work it out!

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This sounds like an excellent concept to gaining higher gearing and I have actually discussed this in the past as an option with Martin Keenean, who had considered the type 9 for a BEC although this might have beeen in a rear wheel drive,but the principal is the same.
Why not make a gate to stop the use of 1st 2nd and 3rd and as already suggested use 4th normally and 5th as an overdrive with reverse as you need it.

This could be a good option for using cheap CBR1000F engines which are a superb engine but low geared,and usually sell for about £300 complete with loom and electrics.(I've just bought a complete low mileage CBR for £600).

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Fredrik Jönsson - 25/11/06 at 03:08 PM

I just got my hands on a Volvo m40 gearbox and it only weigh 20kg. That is 10kg less then the typ9.
No fifth gear so the overdrive ideas stay with the typ9 but I will still get my reverse. There are plenty of m40 here in sweden...

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Fredrik Jönsson - 26/11/06 at 12:08 AM

Picture of the m40 gearbox...



Case about 30cm and 20kg without oil.

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ReMan - 26/11/06 at 09:25 AM

Can you do a better picture or two for us to see?
That certainly looks quite compact....

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Fredrik Jönsson - 26/11/06 at 10:25 AM

Here you go. I used a MK chassi for size reference.

This one I got for free. It has been sitting outside without the lid on for several years but is still looks ok inside. The oil has protected it. As it looks I do not even need a gearshift. Just put a handle on the activators that sticks out at the top rear...








Here is a picture from a norweigan locost builder that made a support bearing for the ingoing shaft.

Rune Naess1

Rune Naess2

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ReMan - 26/11/06 at 11:47 PM

Nice job..........

Do you kkow what the ratio in/out is in 4th and 5th gears?

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Fredrik Jönsson - 27/11/06 at 08:17 AM

Since it is a gearbox from the 60thies unfortunately it is only a 4-gear box, but it is also avaliable with electronic overdrive as well (mounted at the rear end). Fifth is then 0,76 or something. 4th is 1:1.

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