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flatshifter setup kent
kentmagpie - 23/3/15 at 10:14 PM

Hi guys,

I've contacted flatshifter direct with the question but wondered if any of you guys knew of a decent workshop in Kent that could setup my flatshifter max 100% correct?

daniel mason - 23/3/15 at 10:32 PM

What are you having trouble with!

kentmagpie - 23/3/15 at 10:40 PM

Hitting false neutrals on up shifts. I've gone through the instructions again and again to double check everything is set up correctly and it seems to be. I even went to the point of starting over and re setting it back up again after stripping everything off. I've tweeked about with the actuator position as that has made the most difference but still not perfect. Graham at flatshifter said to me nearly 100% of the time if it isn't working correctly it's because it's not been set up right. Or something is worn. Dammed if I can see it. I've not got the confidence to push my car as I'm worried I'm gonna be high revving through the gears when it inevitably finds a false neutral and pops my engine

daniel mason - 23/3/15 at 11:09 PM

The actuator needs to use its full travel to work correctly. Disconnect it from the gear selector and see how far the selector travels to make a full shift at the point you've connected the actuator too! You need to lengthen the selector arm to move the pivot point and re connect it to the actuator in a place where the selector moves the exact same distance as the actuator travel,
So you need to get the acuator, push the rod back towards the actuator body,then extend it to full travel and measure the distance. Mark the half way point and that's where it needs mounting!

[Edited on 23/3/15 by daniel mason]

kentmagpie - 24/3/15 at 08:11 AM

quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
The actuator needs to use its full travel to work correctly. Disconnect it from the gear selector and see how far the selector travels to make a full shift at the point you've connected the actuator too! You need to lengthen the selector arm to move the pivot point and re connect it to the actuator in a place where the selector moves the exact same distance as the actuator travel,
So you need to get the acuator, push the rod back towards the actuator body,then extend it to full travel and measure the distance. Mark the half way point and that's where it needs mounting!

[Edited on 23/3/15 by daniel mason]


I've done this already but whether I've done it correctly is another thing. My gear selector has exactly an inch travel at the point that it connects to the actuator. It's as near to 90° as possible and in a straight upright position (not pivoting at an angle) where it meets the actuator. So at this point I connected my actuator with the clamp loose, marked the halfway point between stroke lengths and connected it in dead centre.

It was terrible in this position and really struggled to upshift at all. I've been moving the actuator in the clamp fractional amounts upwards and have it much better but still way to many false neutrals. That's why I want a fresh set of eyes on it just in case I'm losing the plot and missed something obvious (which is highly possible)

Autoflock Motorsport - 26/3/15 at 04:09 PM

I have the same issue,

the amount of travel needs to be 25mm.

I did a fair bit of research on the bike forums, the main cause of false neutrals is poor gear selection ie weak foot or bad shift movement on the selector. This shows that the main cause is the actuator postition. Other than that I fear the cause may be internal to the box. I have also read people saying the clutch can be altered to repvent this although ive not read too much into it.

This is a good thread so im keeping an eye on this :-)

Autoflock Motorsport - 26/3/15 at 04:10 PM

might be worth posting up some pictures here of your selector arrangement, I will do the same if you want as I have the same kit or at least one of grahams first kits

kentmagpie - 21/4/15 at 07:12 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Autoflock Motorsport
might be worth posting up some pictures here of your selector arrangement, I will do the same if you want as I have the same kit or at least one of grahams first kits


Think I've finally sorted it. I phoned up Graham from flatshifter and after a brief chat he told me that the length of the gear selector rod (or from the mounting spindle to where you connect the actuator shaft) should be 110mm. Although it can be slightly different but this should be a minor amount of mm. When I measured mine it was 128mm effectively meaning that my actuator was struggling to select gears hence why I was hitting so many false neutrals. After some grinding and drilling I've managed to re pivot my mount and re connect the actuator at 110mm. What a difference it's made. I'm still fine tuning slightly and i've all but eliminated the false neutrals. Since I've moved it I've done nearly 100 miles and only hit 2. Before I was hitting them all the time. If anyone needs any info on it ill be glad to offer any help.

Autoflock Motorsport - 21/4/15 at 07:22 AM

thats fantastic news mate!!!!!!!

Keep us posted with progress and how it behaves. Great result so far

kentmagpie - 21/4/15 at 07:24 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Autoflock Motorsport
thats fantastic news mate!!!!!!!

Keep us posted with progress and how it behaves. Great result so far


Did u get yours sorted?

Autoflock Motorsport - 21/4/15 at 07:37 AM

not had chance to change anything as kept snapping drive flanges due to extreme camber caused by poor wishbone setup on the rear, on track next friday (hopefully) so will see then, I will check the rod length tonight though. Can you explain the exact dimensions mate ie fron the end of the actuator in stationary position to selector joint centre 110mm etc

just so I know exactly what to check tonight.

kentmagpie - 21/4/15 at 07:52 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Autoflock Motorsport
not had chance to change anything as kept snapping drive flanges due to extreme camber caused by poor wishbone setup on the rear, on track next friday (hopefully) so will see then, I will check the rod length tonight though. Can you explain the exact dimensions mate ie fron the end of the actuator in stationary position to selector joint centre 110mm etc

just so I know exactly what to check tonight.


Best thing to do is take off your gear selector rod and measure the length between the 2 attachment holes (gear spindle and actuator hole). My original length was 128mm meaning that my actuator couldn't travel further enough to engage gear. Graham was amazed it was working. It should be 110mm. I've since re drilled it and moved my actuator over to keep the 90° angle needed. Remember that the actuator and gear selector must be as close to a 90° angle as poss otherwise you'll lose efficiency. I'll try and take pics but it's hard to get the phone in the right area.

Autoflock Motorsport - 21/4/15 at 08:39 AM

quote:
Originally posted by kentmagpie
quote:
Originally posted by Autoflock Motorsport
not had chance to change anything as kept snapping drive flanges due to extreme camber caused by poor wishbone setup on the rear, on track next friday (hopefully) so will see then, I will check the rod length tonight though. Can you explain the exact dimensions mate ie fron the end of the actuator in stationary position to selector joint centre 110mm etc

just so I know exactly what to check tonight.


Best thing to do is take off your gear selector rod and measure the length between the 2 attachment holes (gear spindle and actuator hole). My original length was 128mm meaning that my actuator couldn't travel further enough to engage gear. Graham was amazed it was working. It should be 110mm. I've since re drilled it and moved my actuator over to keep the 90° angle needed. Remember that the actuator and gear selector must be as close to a 90° angle as poss otherwise you'll lose efficiency. I'll try and take pics but it's hard to get the phone in the right area.


you have explained it very well pics would be great but not essential. Thanks a lot for your help, will report back with tonights results

Autoflock Motorsport - 22/4/15 at 07:11 AM

measured my actuator rod last night and it is 88mm long

kentmagpie - 22/4/15 at 07:31 AM

Way to short. Your gonna need to lengthen that out to 110mm. A lovely headache for you

Autoflock Motorsport - 22/4/15 at 07:37 AM

thing is I have the installation instructions and I cant find the 110mm anywhere, all it states is that it needs to be as close to 90 degrees as possible and have 25mm (1" of travel??

Autoflock Motorsport - 22/4/15 at 07:40 AM

Autoflock Motorsport - 22/4/15 at 07:43 AM

my setup

kentmagpie - 22/4/15 at 08:27 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Autoflock Motorsport
my setup


Ring Graham at flatshifter and have a word. He basically told me that any more than a few mm in even direction on 110mm and it won't work properly. He's basically that if it was measured 100% correct that 25mm actuator travel would be achieved at a length of 110mm. Mine was 128mm and I would've told u that it looked like it travelled 25mm but it was probably travelling 27mm or summin around there. You'll probably find that your actuator is only travelling 22-23mm and it needs to travel the full 25mm for maximum efficiency. Double check with Graham though

Autoflock Motorsport - 22/4/15 at 09:37 AM

i may have my wires crossed here, but the 110 dimension is the rod which comes out of the actuator? if it is does it not matter the lengt5h of this as the travel will always be the same?

Sorry if im having a blonde moment

daniel mason - 22/4/15 at 11:08 AM

That rod only travels around 25 mm each way so needs mounting dead center!
I think he's refering to the lever on your gear selector. So from centre of selector to the mounting home for your actuators rod end needs to be circa 110mm which should give you the required travel to make a shift. Sounds like his was 128 so the 25 mm travel on the actuator wasn't enough to make the shift as the lever was too long

kentmagpie - 22/4/15 at 11:23 AM

quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
That rod only travels around 25 mm each way so needs mounting dead center!
I think he's refering to the lever on your gear selector. So from centre of selector to the mounting home for your actuators rod end needs to be circa 110mm which should give you the required travel to make a shift. Sounds like his was 128 so the 25 mm travel on the actuator wasn't enough to make the shift as the lever was too long


Yep on the money. It's the gear selector lever that has to be 110mm from mount to mount dead centre. My lever measured in at 128mm from hole to hole therefore my actuator rod couldn't travel far enough to engage gears properly. If yours is actually 88 then your rod isn't travelling far enough and using max efficiency.

grazo - 22/4/15 at 11:50 AM

Hi Guys,
Graham from Flatshifter, please call or email me if you are still not sure.
The reason the manual does not say measure down from the center of the gear selector shaft 110mm is that this method does not allow for gearbox play, the 25 mm in each direct is correct and very simple but hard to explain, so i have started saying to measure from the center of the gear selector shaft to the point you have connected the gearshift actuator and if that point is not very close to 110mm then you have made a mistake.
Above is a picture of the gear shift actuator incorrectly installed, why !! because they have just connected to the standard linkage which is far too short instead of extending it to the correct length ie about 110mm we say about 110mm as every gearbox is different and you must follow the directions below to get the exact position .
Hi ,
Some of the most common mistakes to definitely avoid that customers commonly make when installing the Flatshifter Max electric gear selector systems.
Any questions problems etc. please do not hesitate to call or email us. mailto:MAIL@FLATSHIFTER.COM 01206 322557

Max electric gear selector system
If you imagine you are connecting the Max actuator to your gear lever ( some people do) when you put it into gear the gear knob moves a lot further to put into gear that the bottom of the gear-lever, but at some point down the gear lever there is a point where the lever has moved exactly 25mm to be fully into gear that is where the actuator would connect to, the same applies to the drop link directly on the gear selector linkage, but often it will need extending. IT IS NOT THE LINKAGE THAT NEEDS TO BE 110MM LONG BUT THE DISTANCE BETWEEN THE CENTER OF THE GEAR SELECTOR SHAFT AND THE ACTUATOR Drop link MOUNTING POINT (which will be about 25mm of travel)
No 1

The Max electric gearshift system actuator has an effective stoke of 25mm (1”) in either direction, since the effort produced is progressive over the length of this travel it is very very important to utilise the full 25mm stroke. This will dictate the point along the length of the link from the gear selector shaft or gear-lever at which the actuator has to be connected. In most instances this will be at or towards the end of the lever.in this instance near enough is not good enough i.e. if the actuator is placed in the position where 23 mm of movement is used to put fully in gear the actuator will try to extend to 25 mm ie it is trying to damage something if it is was fitted say at 27 mm then the actuator will still only move 25 mm so it will not be fully into gear & you will get missed gears.
Please pay close attention to all angles and measurements in your installation manual and please remember NEAR ENOUGH IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH.Normally a measurement of approx 110mm is required from the center of the gear selector shaft to the position the actuator connects to the gear selector arm / drop link , often this will require the link to be extended if not the Max system will not work properly This LAST POINT IS VERY VERY IMPORTANT and is the most common mistake when installing the Max system.

No 2 Applies to both systems do good quality electrical connections and attach earth & live wire etc preferably back to your vehicle`s battery if possible.

No 3 Do not solidly mount the actuator use the swivel mounting supplied it needs to move to follow the arc of the gear selector arm etc..

No 4 If it does not work properly you have not fitted it properly.

No 5 Check the gear linkage for free play; this represents an effective loss of stroke. Tighten or replace any ball joints or other linkages as necessary

Check that you have the correct level of oil in your gearbox, if the oil level is low the gears will run hot after a short period and become tight.

Check that the clutch is clearing properly, any clutch drag will cause the gears to mesh and prevent you changing gear cleanly.

Check that the chain is in good condition and correctly adjusted with not to much slack.

Please pay close attention to all angles and measurements in your installation manual THEY ARE VERY IMPORTANT .

Any questions problems etc. please do not hesitate to call or email us. mailto:MAIL@FLATSHIFTER.COM 0044 1206 322557 OR 01206 322557

Autoflock Motorsport - 22/4/15 at 11:54 AM

I under stand now pal, good info on this thread.

I though you meant the rod which comes out of the actuation, but you mean the rod which links the end of the actuator to the gear selector splied bolt.

I shall measure this tomorrow, also I know the travel of the actuator is actually slightly more than 25mm, so if you find it is changing down fine but sometimes struggles on the up shift it can be extended the correct way to allow a bit more travel.

Will measure the CORRECT part tonight lol

Autoflock Motorsport - 22/4/15 at 12:19 PM

AS USUAL SUPERB CUSTOMER SERVICE FROM FLATSHIFTER!!!!

Thanks for you responce graham, the pic above is on my car, dont know if you remember but you did a minor repair and upgrade on my gear change ecu last year which is now working a treat, I didnt know that was the standard linkage and I havnt measured it yet but will do when I get back to the workshop after.

Also thank you very much for the information you emails, its much aprpeciated.

I will report back with the dimensions

grazo - 22/4/15 at 12:40 PM

Graham from Flatshifter again,
Please do not forget if anyone ever needs any replacement set up / installation manuals on any of our products please email us and we will email you a copy asap.
Regards
Graham mail@flatshifter.com or 01206 322557

kentmagpie - 22/4/15 at 12:47 PM

quote:
Originally posted by grazo
Hi Guys,
Graham from Flatshifter, please call or email me if you are still not sure.
The reason the manual does not say measure down from the center of the gear selector shaft 110mm is that this method does not allow for gearbox play, the 25 mm in each direct is correct and very simple but hard to explain, so i have started saying to measure from the center of the gear selector shaft to the point you have connected the gearshift actuator and if that point is not very close to 110mm then you have made a mistake.
Above is a picture of the gear shift actuator incorrectly installed, why !! because they have just connected to the standard linkage which is far too short instead of extending it to the correct length ie about 110mm we say about 110mm as every gearbox is different and you must follow the directions below to get the exact position .
Hi ,
Some of the most common mistakes to definitely avoid that customers commonly make when installing the Flatshifter Max electric gear selector systems.
Any questions problems etc. please do not hesitate to call or email us. mailto:MAIL@FLATSHIFTER.COM 01206 322557

Max electric gear selector system
If you imagine you are connecting the Max actuator to your gear lever ( some people do) when you put it into gear the gear knob moves a lot further to put into gear that the bottom of the gear-lever, but at some point down the gear lever there is a point where the lever has moved exactly 25mm to be fully into gear that is where the actuator would connect to, the same applies to the drop link directly on the gear selector linkage, but often it will need extending. IT IS NOT THE LINKAGE THAT NEEDS TO BE 110MM LONG BUT THE DISTANCE BETWEEN THE CENTER OF THE GEAR SELECTOR SHAFT AND THE ACTUATOR Drop link MOUNTING POINT (which will be about 25mm of travel)
No 1

The Max electric gearshift system actuator has an effective stoke of 25mm (1”) in either direction, since the effort produced is progressive over the length of this travel it is very very important to utilise the full 25mm stroke. This will dictate the point along the length of the link from the gear selector shaft or gear-lever at which the actuator has to be connected. In most instances this will be at or towards the end of the lever.in this instance near enough is not good enough i.e. if the actuator is placed in the position where 23 mm of movement is used to put fully in gear the actuator will try to extend to 25 mm ie it is trying to damage something if it is was fitted say at 27 mm then the actuator will still only move 25 mm so it will not be fully into gear & you will get missed gears.
Please pay close attention to all angles and measurements in your installation manual and please remember NEAR ENOUGH IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH.Normally a measurement of approx 110mm is required from the center of the gear selector shaft to the position the actuator connects to the gear selector arm / drop link , often this will require the link to be extended if not the Max system will not work properly This LAST POINT IS VERY VERY IMPORTANT and is the most common mistake when installing the Max system.

No 2 Applies to both systems do good quality electrical connections and attach earth & live wire etc preferably back to your vehicle`s battery if possible.

No 3 Do not solidly mount the actuator use the swivel mounting supplied it needs to move to follow the arc of the gear selector arm etc..

No 4 If it does not work properly you have not fitted it properly.

No 5 Check the gear linkage for free play; this represents an effective loss of stroke. Tighten or replace any ball joints or other linkages as necessary

Check that you have the correct level of oil in your gearbox, if the oil level is low the gears will run hot after a short period and become tight.

Check that the clutch is clearing properly, any clutch drag will cause the gears to mesh and prevent you changing gear cleanly.

Check that the chain is in good condition and correctly adjusted with not to much slack.

Please pay close attention to all angles and measurements in your installation manual THEY ARE VERY IMPORTANT .

Any questions problems etc. please do not hesitate to call or email us. mailto:MAIL@FLATSHIFTER.COM 0044 1206 322557 OR 01206 322557



Graham is brilliant. Always got time for people

Autoflock Motorsport - 22/4/15 at 01:11 PM

cant wait to get back to the car now and het measuring, feeling positive now about it all, bring on anglesey next week

daniel mason - 22/4/15 at 04:41 PM

See you there!

Autoflock Motorsport - 22/4/15 at 10:24 PM

Make sure you come over and say high, you wont miss me, I will be the one going the slowest, or broke down

Autoflock Motorsport - 22/4/15 at 10:28 PM

well peeps I went to the unit and measured the actuator rod to gear selector shat length. Will let the pic do the talking.

grazo - 23/4/15 at 12:00 AM

Hi ,
If you refit the actuator rod on to the gear box then measure the amount of distance traveled when putting it into gear it will be a lot less than 25 mm, please use the 25mm as per your instruction manual.
graham (Flatshifter)

Autoflock Motorsport - 23/4/15 at 07:38 AM

quote:
Originally posted by grazo
Hi ,
If you refit the actuator rod on to the gear box then measure the amount of distance traveled when putting it into gear it will be a lot less than 25 mm, please use the 25mm as per your instruction manual.
graham (Flatshifter)


I know graham, this is just one of the things I already thought would of been done corectly when this was built, not my doing. Find it hard to see how something like this could be missed as its in bold writing in the instructions, annoying really, only thing you have to adhere to is "angle to be 90 degrees and linkage to be 110mm"

Friggin ell we will be designing rockets next lol

I will try and make a new bracket this weekend and see how I get on. Even though im finding fault after fault im actually enjoying it as im elarning more and mroe about the car as I go along

Autoflock Motorsport - 24/4/15 at 07:56 AM

Hope im not hijacking the thread but my progress/mistakes may be useful to someone on this subject.

Last night I started to modify the linkage to the correct length.




Autoflock Motorsport - 24/4/15 at 07:59 AM

when I fitted it, it now puts the connection angle out of 90, so I propose to slide the actuator through the mounting bracket which will move it away from the linkage rod achieving the desired 90 degree. This will however mean that the actuator/solenoid tube thing itself will be mounted with the bracket off set to one side instead of in the middle. I cant see this being too much of a problem for one track day but it will be getting remounted correctly on the chasses to that it can be centralised again.

Hope this makes sense, pics to follow tonight

Any comments welcome as im doing this off my own back with serious lack of talent in this department.

[Edited on 24/4/15 by Autoflock Motorsport]

Autoflock Motorsport - 27/4/15 at 09:14 AM

Well here is my setup finished I hope, 90degree angle and 110mm rod length. Had to relocate the actuator though which has raised it up, dont think it will affect the handling too much