I was wondering why there are so few people making mid-engined cars. Especially considering the huge amount of front-engined FWD donors out there.

What would be the reason? The lack of available plans? Or the amount of bodywork? (unless you're looking for something like the original OX7, you're looking at the kind of work Alan has been working on for the last year?!?!)

I'm still in the planning/thinking/designing stage, with an IRS design "Seven" already in 3D in my computer. But I would also be interested in making a slightly more modern car, by taking the mid-engined route.

Would the bodywork of the AS One be easy to make (http://www.automotivesolutions.de/), using flat GRP sandwich panels? There are only single curvatures in the body, so maybe it is not needed to go through al the pattern/mold-making.

Or am I talking complete nonsense?

I'd say wihout a doubt that it's the bodywork that puts off most people.

Alan's well documented effort would be enough to put-off most normal people with 'semi-normal lives'. No disrespect to Alan, he is my hero and my mentor.

I think that most GRP fabricators would say that the flats are the most difficult areas to get right... Alan?

The cars themselves are probably easier to fabricate, but except for the almost unfindable "Terrapin" there is no real "book" so you're on your own there too.

Steve G

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HOWEVER - I think it's a great idea!!! Please go for it!

[Edited on 5/28/03 by sgraber]

I have been toying with the idea of building a mid engined car for a while having built a Tiger Cat. ATM I am in the thinking stage with a couple of ideas around using a YKC Pace or a MOJO chassis as a starting point and then making my own body to fit
Any thoughts?

Keith

I think it would be much faster to start with an *existing* body and work from there rather then the other way around. I agree with ^, there's probably the same amount of time if not more spend on the bodywork...

Like most people on this list, I have a number of mid-engined cars in my mind, all with novel/swoopy bodywork. Realistically though, KB58 is spot on. Unless you have a load of time on your hands, or, like Alan, you plan to market the final product, you'd be far better off stuffing all your mid-engined gear into an existing car, as kb58 suggests.
I picked the ubiquitous Beetle as a victim on 5 occasions, simply because the body falls off after a handful of small bolts are removed.
I've also midded (new word?) a Peugeot 205 and a Honda Civic. Hatchbacks make the best middies.
The surgery becomes routine after a while. I spend the times halted at traffic lights to eye up the distance from the B post to the rear wheel centre of the cars along side me as potential middy converts.
I also look at the rear window sections of pickups/utes as potential bulkheads/firewalls in midded conversions.
The trick is to strip the rear interior of the chosen car, and tack weld a double cross brace into the car, just in front of the B post. That way, when you start cutting out the rear floor etc, the shell won't twist.
Once the cut out is finished, the new rear subframe is in, and the bulkhead tacked in, the cross braces can be removed.
Those are the best days; turning mundane shoppers into respectable cars.

Maybe a compromise for those who really want to do it all themselves, and save a Ton of work and time, is to use a body shell from an existing kit car. Use that "envelope" and design in whatever they desire inside.

[Edited on 28/6/03 by kb58]

Well lads,

when you've worked it out I'll have something like this:-



Cheers

Chris

Exactly. Buy the above shell from the maker, then "fill it" with whatever you want. Like I said, it saves a ton of time since the body is already done. As long as the wheels line up with the wheel wells, and you have provisions for body mounts, it puts you (seriously) a good year ahead in the project.

Greetings!

May I ask a very very newbie question?

Steve said:
> I'd say wihout a doubt that it's the bodywork that puts off most people

My question is: Why does it need to be any more complicated than a Locost?? I'm sure there's a good reason why you cannot follow the same cheap panel route but I'd like to know it..

Many thanks.

Alex

Alex (or Alez?),

Basically it doesn't have to be complicated...It's just about getting some decent looks with minimum work...that's the hard part....

I find the "minimum body/exo skeleton"* type cars appealing....I think some kind of sports car/buggy type car will be my next project.......whenever that might be..

*Ariel Atom, BMW concept thingy..etc.

[Edited on 26/11/03 by Alan B]

for simple (ish) body work look at the early lotus (loti?) the 23 springs to mind. Not too complicated.

Oh the terrapin books been reprinted - how do i know, i've got one

Mike, am I thinking of the right Lotus?...I thought the 23 had really curvy bodywork...unless I'm thing of something else....maybe the 11?

Well its not really curvey compared to your car (the benchmark ). Its got curves around the wheel arches and big flat bits inbetween.

Hi chaps,

Thanks for your posts. Alan you are right, I kind of keep thinking about a low cost, bike engined version of the Ariel Atom.

Oh, Alez is the nick, Alex is the name, well actually the name is Alejandro (Spanish) but even my family calls me Alex. So just call me anything, eh, no jokes!

Yesterday I sent a U2U to Steve G to point him to the thread so he could share his thoughts. He just replied to my U2U, it's a very nice and clarifying explanation, so I'm now copying it here.

Cheers,

Alex

___________________________

Hi Alez,

Why are there so few mid-engine builds? You must know the answer lies in the aesthetic, not the technical.

A chassis design is a technical excercise. You can quantify it's performance and analyze it with tools and evaluate it's performance a million different ways. No one critiques it on it's aesthetic values. At the end of the day, it's all in the numbers. How does it perform.

Unfortunately, beauty is judged by the cover. No one wants to drive an ugly car, right?. When you drive a car down the street, no one can see the technology underneath the skin. They decide if your car is worthy to desire by how it looks. It is very subjective.

The (Lotus 7) is a very rare item. A bare chassis with a few well placed panels that looks so right. It's so simple to build too. And that makes it very popular for the self-builder.

You can't easily make a mid-engine 7 clone because the ass end is simply too large to be aesthetically pleasing. So you end up having to design an entire car from scratch. That's why many people who want middy convert an existing hatchback into a mid-engine car.

It's easy to design an good performing mid-engine chassis, BUT It is so hard to design an attractive, original design, mid-engine car! Most people won't even try. They look so, "home-built"... You know what I mean?
IMHO - You would not have good results simply applying panels onto a mid-engine chassis. The form factor simply begs for bodywork.

If you can design a simple body for a middy, you may become the next Colin Chapman!

Steve G

If I do build a middie, which i would like to , just no time/space/money and the locost needs to be finished first, I'd get a shell from somewhere else (a mate of mine owns some lola t86/90 sports 2000 moulds ) which I'd then build something under..

Ned.

Alex,

I'm building a mid-engined car which is intended to be very much in the same spirit as the Locost. It has a quite similar shape, with the cockpit area moved forward about 500-600mm and the tail enlarged somewhat. Here's a pic of my rough model and the beginnings of a chassis model.

The intent is that the bodywork could almost all be made in the same way as a Locost; ali panelled sides, f'glass nose cone, front cycle guards and rears. Biggest outstanding question is how to panel the rear. I still hold hope that I can make a reasonable looking tail with wrapped ali in a greatly extended version of a "book" Locost tail panel. Time will tell If I can't, then f'glass it will be.

Powerplant is basic Toyota Corolla 1600 four (JDM 20-valve motor though) with standard 5-speed transverse box. Suspension is Chevette (Gemini in Australia) at the front (same 4x100 PCD as Corolla and many other small FWD cars) and Corolla struts at rear with custom lower arms and ant-steer links - basically the same rear layout as a Mk1 MR2.

I think this is the future of the Locost-type car - based on common FWD running gear and with simple to make bodywork. The Sylva Mojo and Car Craft Cyclone are two production examples of this form. However, the Cyclone is out of production and the Mojo's styling doesn't appeal to all tastes (mine included ).

Best regards,

Dominic

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheGecko
....... this is the future of the Locost-type car - based on common FWD running gear and with simple to make bodywork. The Sylva Mojo and Car Craft Cyclone are two production examples of this form. However, the Cyclone is out of production and the Mojo's styling doesn't appeal to all tastes (mine included )...

---

Dominic,

Very interesting post indeed. Your project is looking very good, and is actually very similar to what I'd like to see ideally. In fact, my ideal would probaby be a Locost-like (panelled), mid bike engined car. And actually it looks quite do-able to me since for instance the Fireblade engine is a quite small one. Not that I have the skills to try to design anything though.

Good luck with the project, it's looking fantastic so far and much in line with the Locost spirit.

Cheers,

Alex

I have built both single seat race-car bodies, and multi skin saloon car bodies for a living in GRP, and to get a high class product for retail use, except in the most simple of shapes is 6 months to 1 year of work. If its any indication of the timescale required in the development of the chassis, running gear and engine package allow a minimum of 1 1/2 to 2 years work, if u manage it quicker your a bloody genius working 18 hour days 7 days a week I am looking at the development of Modern body for a 7 type chassis but its on the back burner till spring, watch this space. Not cheap and cheerful but sub £900, thats the difficult bit
Shug.

what do you say alan?? these guys just dont have any ambition

cant wait to start mine, nearly finished me bathroom now, then its the new kitchen and general decorating, then the loft conversion. (doing all this myself btw) then the car!! woohoo! hmm i might convert the garage into a double first tho.




Russ.