Board logo

Yet another Q plate question
Westy1994 - 14/7/12 at 02:34 AM

I have just been browsing some other 7 forums ( as you do..) and on one of them they are discussing types of number plates used on 7's and where they are fitted, and have come across this post on the WSCC forum.
---------
original thread

"If you read and UNDERSTAND the legislation, you'd know that stick on front plates are legal for a Westfield.
If you have a Q plate they are legal despite not having BSi kite marks or the postcode of the manufacturer 'cos on a Q plater, the old non reflective black and silver pressed tin plates are legal too"
--------

Can someone find some proof of this please, as I have had a good look and can't find anything about how a Q plated car IS allowed to use the old style plates. There are lots of sites (DVLA included) that are mentioning a pre 1972/3 cutoff date.

If you can find anything out please post back, as a nice black and silver plate on the back of mine would just finish it off nicely, but I am pretty sure that person is incorrect in mentioning the black/silver plate bit.

Regards

Rich.



[Edited on 14/7/12 by Westy1994]

loggyboy - 14/7/12 at 07:26 AM

Its not true, the legistlation for black and silver plates is based on age of registration only.

Only cars registered before 1st Jan 1973

http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_067666.pdf

There was a more detailed leafet but the dvla/directgov website is a maze of useless links and pages.

loggyboy - 14/7/12 at 07:48 AM

Heres the actuall law on it:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2001/561/schedule/2/made

No mention of Q plates or kitcars etc, just registration/first used on date.

gremlin1234 - 14/7/12 at 10:11 AM

quote:

Can someone find some proof of this please, as I have had a good look and can't find anything about how a Q plated car IS allowed to use the old style plates. There are lots of sites (DVLA included) that are mentioning a pre 1972/3 cutoff date.

well it should pass an mot since q plated cars should be tested for
emission 'before 1/8/75'
and everything else as 'on 1/1/71'

ref page 8 of introduction of
The MOT Inspection Manual - Private Passenger and Light Commercial Vehicle Testing

also on your car you might be able just to stick the letters/number on with no extra backing

Westy1994 - 14/7/12 at 10:43 AM

quote:
and everything else as 'on 1/1/71'


And it is on the basis of that line I posted the question at all, surely if it were as simple as that everyone would be doing it?

Looks like yet another email session with VOSA, they will be getting rather peeved off with me


Anyone, know anyone using one?

vanepico - 14/7/12 at 01:31 PM

A friend of our family has a brand new Citroen DS3 with an old black and grey number plate on, not sure if it is personalised or not.

[Edited on 14/7/12 by vanepico]

Westy1994 - 17/7/12 at 10:31 AM

OK, well I have to apologise to the WSCC member whose comments I was doubting in the above post regarding Black and Silver number plates for Q plated cars..

I have had an email from VOSA that confirms that these plates legal for use on a Q plated car.

------
Thank you for your email enquiry dated 14th July 2012, concerning number
plates.

As the vehicle is fitted with a Q plate you are correct in saying that the
MOT test limits applied will be those of a vehicle first used before the
1st January 1971. Due to this the old style Black and Silver number plates
you are refering to in your email would be acceptable for the purposes of
the MOT.

I hope this information has assisted you with your enquiry, but if you have
any further questions please do not hesitate to contact us again.

Kind Regards

Rebecca
Customer Service Centre
VOSA Operations Directorate
Tel: 0300 123 9000

----------

There you go, another public service post .

Off to order my new plates,

Bye all.

Rich

loggyboy - 17/7/12 at 10:40 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Westy1994
OK, well I have to apologise to the WSCC member whose comments I was doubting in the above post regarding Black and Silver number plates for Q plated cars..

I have had an email from VOSA that confirms that these plates legal for use on a Q plated car.

------
Thank you for your email enquiry dated 14th July 2012, concerning number
plates.

As the vehicle is fitted with a Q plate you are correct in saying that the
MOT test limits applied will be those of a vehicle first used before the
1st January 1971. Due to this the old style Black and Silver number plates
you are refering to in your email would be acceptable for the purposes of
the MOT.

I hope this information has assisted you with your enquiry, but if you have
any further questions please do not hesitate to contact us again.

Kind Regards

Rebecca
Customer Service Centre
VOSA Operations Directorate
Tel: 0300 123 9000

----------

There you go, another public service post .

Off to order my new plates,

Bye all.

Rich


Thats very interesting that the Mot Manual contradicts C&U regs... I doubt it would ever get to court, but I wonder what would overule...

Could you reply asking them to confirm that the C&U regs do not mention the exemption shown in the MoT manual?

[Edited on 17/7/12 by loggyboy]

loggyboy - 17/7/12 at 10:48 AM

quote:
Originally posted by vanepico
A friend of our family has a brand new Citroen DS3 with an old black and grey number plate on, not sure if it is personalised or not.

[Edited on 14/7/12 by vanepico]

They is breaking the law then

Westy1994 - 17/7/12 at 11:06 AM

quote:
Could you reply asking them to confirm that the C&U regs do not mention the exemption shown in the MoT manual?


No, but you could, I have spent the best part of 3 weeks emailing VOSA with one question or another, so instead of me emailing them again, you do it and let us know what they say, just say you read on your car forum about this situation.

I am more than satisfied with the response on the subject, and have now ordered my plates, the problem with this and many other regs concerning Q plated cars, is that they fail to check what implications a new rule might have on our cars, just as the situation regarding the emissions, one manual says one thing and the other another thing. Contacting them direct is the only way of getting an up to date answer .

The old style plates being the type they are do not reflect any light shown upon them by design, so I will leave that thought with you as to how they may be useful.......

Rich.

owelly - 17/7/12 at 11:09 AM

Here's what the MOT handbook says...
http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_630.htm

Westy1994 - 17/7/12 at 11:11 AM

Yes I read that site last week, but there is no mention of Q plates on the reg plate part, hence my need to email VOSA.

loggyboy - 17/7/12 at 11:55 AM

quote:
Originally posted by owelly
Here's what the MOT handbook says...
http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_630.htm


The full manual states in the introduction:

3. Vehicle ‘first used’ Dates - Application of Test Criteria NT’s will normally be provided with the vehicle details as part of the Vehicle Specific Information supplied by the MOT database. This will usually include the vehicle’s ‘first used’ date. Where this information is available, the NT should only use Reasons for Rejection applicable to the vehicle’s age. However, in cases where this information is not available or incorrect, the NT should determine the vehicle’s ‘first used’ date as follows: a. Its date of manufacture, if the vehicle was originally used without being registered in GB (e.g., an imported vehicle or ex-HM Forces vehicle), or b. Vehicles having a Q plate registration when presented for MOT are to be treated as follows: For emission purposes only, all these types are to be considered as vehicles first used before 1 August 1975. For all other testing purposes they are to be considered as being first used on 1 January 1971, or c. In any other case, the earlier of either: · Its date of first registration, or · The date six months after it was manufactured. This information should be entered onto the VTS Device to enable the NT to select the appropriate Reason for Rejection

http://www.transportoffice.gov.uk/crt/doitonline/bl/mottestingmanualsandguides/mottestingmanualsandguides.htm

gremlin1234 - 17/7/12 at 11:55 AM

quote:
Originally posted by owelly
Here's what the MOT handbook says...
http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_630.htm


a better link is
http://www.motinfo.gov.uk/htdocs/m4_int.zip

or
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/publications/manualsandguides/vehicletestingmanualsandguides.htm

Westy1994 - 17/7/12 at 12:04 PM

There you go then, it was legal all the time.

I guess they don't want that information written everywhere since it could lead to abuse by some folks and hence why the information is hard in interpret.

Glad I emailed anyway, as at least now I know I am legal, instead of trying to work out which book , manual, forum posts etc etc are correct.

Yet another thumbs up for a Q plated car, going well this....

ETA.

As Gremlin above has already posted , as I have a black car already I can now, quite legally use stick-on letters directly onto the rear of the car, even better - and cheaper..

[Edited on 17/7/12 by Westy1994]

loggyboy - 17/7/12 at 12:26 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Westy1994
There you go then, it was legal all the time.

I guess they don't want that information written everywhere since it could lead to abuse by some folks and hence why the information is hard in interpret.

Glad I emailed anyway, as at least now I know I am legal, instead of trying to work out which book , manual, forum posts etc etc are correct.


I wouldnt say that, whilst I agree that your car will pass an MoT, that doesnt necessarily mean its fully compliant with the C&U regs, the MoT just scims the surface. Like I said before, it would unlikely get noticed by the average bobby, and maybe even a VOSA inspector (even if the office monkey has confirmed it) and even less likely to ever go as far as court, but the C&U (ie the law) doesnt excuse post 73 Q regs from using B&W plates.

Not trying to cause an argument, just present the facts as I see them.

Westy1994 - 17/7/12 at 12:28 PM

I have already presented the facts to VOSA they replied as per my above post, I think if they were giving out false information it would be a crime also, have you emailed them about it yet?

loggyboy - 17/7/12 at 12:58 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Westy1994
I have already presented the facts to VOSA they replied as per my above post, I think if they were giving out false information it would be a crime also, have you emailed them about it yet?


Not yet, and im not saying the info theyve given is false, to pass an MoT you can have B&W plates on a Q, but having a MoT'd car doesnt not guarantee it complys with C&U regs.

Westy1994 - 17/7/12 at 01:03 PM

And this is where the whole thing becomes a farse, with one site saying one thing and the other another thing, post back the reply you get from them, I would be very interested to see how it reads.

Here is the email address
enquiries@vosa.gov.uk

ETA

If VOSA have said that this is passes an MOT, then by default the car is suitable for use on the road, after all that is what an MOT is about. If the books and sites can not agree with each other then that is not really my problem, and if VOSA say they are allowed, you would think that they are aware that the car will actually be driven on a public road and need to meet the C&U rules. All I have done is present them with the information that they need to say yes or no, in this case it was yes.

[Edited on 17/7/12 by Westy1994]

loggyboy - 17/7/12 at 01:14 PM

Cheers, have sent:

Mots for Q registered vehcles and Black and white/silver Number plates.

Hello,

I was wondering if you could confirm the following:

The MoT manual states:
Vehicles having a Q plate registration when presented for MOT are to be treated as follows: For emission purposes only, all these types are to be considered as vehicles first used before 1 August 1975. For all other testing
purposes they are to be considered as being first used on 1 January 1971..

Therefore this would dicate that it is acceptable for them to have the old style Black and White/silver registration plates.

However in the Construction and Use Regulations (The Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) Regulations 2001) it makes no reference to Q registered cars, it only states:

PART 3 VEHICLES REGISTERED BEFORE 1ST JANUARY 1973 (OPTIONAL SPECIFICATIONS)
A
Requirements where the vehicle carries a registration plate which is constructed so that the mark may be illuminated from behind by virtue of the translucency of its characters.
1. The registration mark must be formed of white translucent characters on a black background on the surface of that plate.
2. When the registration mark is illuminated during the hours of darkness, the characters on that plate must appear white against a black background.

Could you confirm if there is a contradiction between the requirements, if there is a part of the Construction and Use regulations that exempts Q plates, or if it is accepted that the vehicle can pass an MoT, but yet not comply with the Construction and Use Regulations at the same time?

Many Thanks,

David Garside.

Westy1994 - 17/7/12 at 01:17 PM

Ahh, nice one, I have sent a similar worded one, so lets see what they say now.....

coyoteboy - 17/7/12 at 01:46 PM

Why would the omission for the emissions rules suggest you don't have to meet modern visibility/registration rules?

Seems like an odd conclusion to jump to to me.


quote:

And this is where the whole thing becomes a farse, with one site saying one thing and the other another thing, post back the reply you get from them, I would be very interested to see how it reads.


No really a farce, it's just that the MOT can't possibly test all possible C&U artifacts and since there's a vast variation it just summarised.

[Edited on 17/7/12 by coyoteboy]

Westy1994 - 17/7/12 at 01:59 PM

There is an old saying 'Don't shoot the messenger'

I don't write these rules but simply question them when they appear to be abstract.

quote:
Seems like an odd conclusion to jump to to me.


If the rules and regulations were written in one book for kitcars, then we would not be having this conversation at all. There seems to be one rule written here, then another in some other book, followed by VOSA and the C&U regs giving different info.

All I am attempting to establish is wether or not I can legally use a black and silver plate on a Q reg, and in the words of Mr Clarkson - How hard can it be ?!!!! - well very hard by the looks of it....

Davegtst - 17/7/12 at 02:04 PM

It would be great if we could use black and silver plates. They would look perfect on mine.

loggyboy - 17/7/12 at 02:05 PM

quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
Why would the omission for the emissions rules suggest you don't have to meet modern visibility/registration rules?

Seems like an odd conclusion to jump to to me.


Its not to do with the emmsions note, its to do with the areas in bold I highlighted, as in how a car is treated for its 'first used on date'

Westy1994 - 17/7/12 at 02:06 PM

quote:
It would be great if we could use black and silver plates. They would look perfect on mine.


According to VOSA you can, but we seem to have a C& U issue now.................

ETA

Not content with VOSA, I have just emailed the DVLA as well, since they are part government body that wrote the C&U regs.

I have called a few 'plate' makers, all of them say they are allowed and have had no one saying they got pulled for having them fitted.

[Edited on 17/7/12 by Westy1994]

loggyboy - 18/7/12 at 10:27 AM

As I suspected, and they agree with what Westy has said, it may be DVLA issue, will be interesting to hear their reply.


Dear Mr Garside,

Thank you for your email enquiry dated 16th July 2012, concerning number
plates.

VOSA are only able to advise on the MOT requirements for a vehicle.
However, just because a vehicle passes an MOT doesn't necessarily mean that
it is road legal as it is just a basic roadworthiness test.

To enquiry whether these number plates are legal for your vehicle you would
need to contact the DVLA as they are responsible for overseeing the number
plate legislation in the UK. Please find their contact details below:

Follow link for email details: www.direct.gov.uk/emaildvla
Telephone: 0300 790 6802 for vehicle queries.

I hope this information has assisted you with your enquiry, but if you have
any further questions please do not hesitate to contact us again.

Kind Regards

Rebecca
Customer Service Centre
VOSA Operations Directorate
Tel: 0300 123 9000


[Edited on 18/7/12 by loggyboy]

Westy1994 - 18/7/12 at 11:03 AM

Yes, not only did they fail to tell me any of that in my first email ( see page one for those who have not read it) but they are rather lazy with emails... All they did was change the name on the Dear [name here] , lol... I got the exact some worded email


I did warn VOSA they would be getting more mails about this situation, so I reckon they have taken extra care with the response, as they could have quite easily included that into their previous email from yesterday.


This is all rather a mess would not not agree, with one body saying it is legal for one thing and (subject to confirmation) another body saying the opposite, you would have thought in the 21st Century that all these folks would talk to each other, and have their respective rules and regs to hand. Surely my first email gave VOSA my intention to find out if this was legal or not?, or are they too blinkered to see anything else.

So it all hinges on what the DVLA say now.


Rich

[Edited on 18/7/12 by Westy1994]

coyoteboy - 18/7/12 at 11:10 AM

I don't think it's too messy at all really, the different tests and applications have a massive variety of possible configurations. Each overseeing authority has it's own priority and ultimately the only thing that matters is what the DVLA say. I found similar with the engine age/emissions situation - two different requirements depending on which authoority you contact - but that's because each has their own target. So long as you can see what's required you have to make your own choice. You're designing/building a car, it's not easy and it requires proper knowledge of the laws - which takes time and effort - don't be too hard on them.

coyoteboy - 18/7/12 at 11:15 AM

quote:

Its not to do with the emmsions note, its to do with the areas in bold I highlighted, as in how a car is treated for its 'first used on date'


No, but people on other forums seem to be jumping to such conclusions. People read into it what they want to read.

FWIW I think all of these are pretty clear, it's just the end user is not clear in what they're looking for. The section you quoted pretty catagorically covers the rules as to what is applicable to which cars at MOT time (which is notably different from IVA time).

Westy1994 - 18/7/12 at 11:22 AM

Yes I am aware of that, but given this is a number plate issue, and what are number plates for?, as far as I know they are to identify your car should someone have reason to check it's legality etc whilst being driven on a public road. If you weren't using any public roads you would not need a plate anyway.

So, currently, VOSA say YES to it passing an MOT, but why, if it now looks like it is illegal to use on a road and since that is where a number plate has its use , whats the point in having that ruling at all. Do you see my point?.

I just feel there are too many rules that have too many conflicts in them, that's all.

loggyboy - 18/7/12 at 11:25 AM

Whats even sillier, is that if you were to run B&W plates and a knowledgable plod stopped you for them, it would no doubt result in the issue of a VDR (Vehicle Defect Rectifcation), which would need to be stamped by an MoT station to say you had fixed the concern.. who would say they are fine! lol

Westy1994 - 18/7/12 at 11:28 AM

LOL, that is a very good point, I had not thought of that situation.....

What a stupid stupid country we live in.

Westy1994 - 18/7/12 at 02:28 PM

Ok, well at last we have a definitive answer.

Although I think the guy that mailed me thought I wanted an age related plate - which I dont.

I have also written back explaining the points we have posted about here, not sure if that one will get answered really, but still.

Here is what DVLA's take is on the situation.
_________
Thank you for your email received on 17/7/12. Your email reference number is XXXXXX.

If your vehicle is currently registered with a "Q" registration number, it would not be possible for you to display the black and silver style number plate. This is because a "Q" plate is assigned to a vehicle that did not have sufficient evidence of its age at the time of registration.

We would first need evidence of the date the vehicle was manufactured in order to look into issuing the vehicle with an age related number. This would have to show the vehicle was built before January 1st 1973. If we are able to successfully issue an age related number, you would be able to get the black and silver number plates made for the vehicle.

To obtain this evidence, you will need to contact the Manufacturer of the vehicle, or an Owners / Enthusiast Club.

You should give them as much information as possible about the vehicle and request proof of the vehicles age on headed paper.

You may send this dating evidence to your nearest DVLA Local Office with your V5C Registration certificate and a covering letter. You should also include your MOT test certificate and a clear copy of your tax disc, as these will need to be re printed should your application be successful.

you will receive correspondence from the DVLA Local Office within 2 weeks.

You may obtain a V765/1 List Of Vehicle Ownership Clubs from www.direct.gov.uk/motoringforms

You can find the address for your nearest DVLA Local Office at www.direct.gov.uk/dvlalocal or by telephoning 0300 123 1277 (you will be asked to give a post code)

Do not reply to this email. If you wish to contact us again about this response then please use our Reply Form or copy and paste the following URL in to your browser:

_____________

Maybe someone who is a member of the WSCC can cross post this thread so other folks can see exactly what the law is on this matter.

I have to say , and I did write it on my OP that I did think this may have been incorrect information, but I never take anything I read on the internet as gospel and prefer to get the info from those who wrote the rules, sadly the rules are somewhat garbled and confusing which is why I wanted to pursue this matter.

Oh and I cancelled the plate order BTW, lol...

Matter closed as far as I see it.

Rich

loggyboy - 18/7/12 at 02:30 PM

If it was me and I really wanted them, I would just get them, I honestly think the chances of anything happening is slim to none, and even if they did, the standard fine for displaying an incorrect plate is only a few quid with no points.

Davegtst - 18/7/12 at 02:36 PM

Booooo thats a shame,

Westy1994 - 18/7/12 at 02:39 PM

I was never overly worried about getting any, just would have been nice, I think you may be right, the chances are small of getting caught, but what this has shown , is that as far as legallity is concerned the MOT is a waste of time, I know it is more to do with safety and rightly so, but to allow a number plate to pass a test and yet when you drive it out of the MOT bay onto the road you are breaking the law, it makes no sense.

I took the tintop out just before, and was overtaken by 6 bikers all with under size plates, I know I had those when I had a bike and never got caught, the difference with that is that at MOT time you put your 'big' plate back on, then afterwards change it back.. The black /silver plate issue is nothing like that.

At least we know where we all stand now.

Dopdog - 18/7/12 at 03:51 PM

I had a B/W plate on my old tin top and got stopped for it. had to put standard colors on as it was after the date mentioned.

vanepico - 18/7/12 at 05:28 PM

Someone had a grey and black one on some generic people carrier at my halls of residence, it was 706** or something along those lines, 5 numbers. Deffo wasn't old enough from what you're saying

When you email the government places, they are always careful about wording the responses, I sent an email to them about A Frames, they say "Our view is that" and "It is our understanding". This coming from the people who make up the rules, and enforce them? WTF!

This will almost certainly be so when traffic cops pull you over and you show them this they will point out that it is only their 'understanding'. It is a bit pathetic really, no one trusts anyone's word legally, and it obviously goes to show that the traffic cops get it wrong quite a lot too.

[Edited on 18/7/12 by vanepico]

Westy1994 - 18/7/12 at 05:56 PM

It's hardly suprising they get things wrong, you only have to read this thread to see how stupid the rules are.

Quite by chance I was browsing PH and found a post about some kitcar that could not be identified, I decided to check out what folks were saying it was using google images, and what should pop up but a photo on this very site of the car in question - and see what sort of plate it has......

Now there must be lots of folks running around with these on, so why have DVLA not asked VOSA to ammend their own rules?.

Car photo here