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Brake lines, Fuel lines and cables
chris68 - 15/9/14 at 11:12 AM

Hi Guys,

Want to pick your brains. Been looking through the IVA manual to find any info. on attachment points for the above and I can't find much.

Section 09D Hydraulic and Vacuum Systems states in the Required Standards that 'A brake pipe or hose must be adequately clipped or otherwise supported', but it doesn't give any ideas as to spacing and what counts as adequately clipped or supported. My manufacturer states 250mm for brake pipes and 200mm for fuel pipes but where is this information and how has it been arrived at?

Can't find any mention of fuel pipe spacing in Section 03A Fuel Tanks and the only mention of cable spacing appears at the end of the manual in the General Construction section where there is mention of 300mm spacing or less if contained in a rigid tube.

Am I just making a mountain out of a mole hill and just go with what I'm told ? However, I do like to know where this sort of info. is arrived at. Was it that someone got a car through IVA with the above spacing and it has now been adopted as a general guide or have I missed something? I'm sure I'm not the first to ask these questions!

My general feeling is to use fixings with Nyloc nuts or rivets.

Cheers as always,

Chris


joneh - 15/9/14 at 11:20 AM

I'm in the same boat.

I've seen recommendations for every 200mm with no reactive clips. I.e. Not steel clips against copper. I plan to use rubber lined p clips riveted every 200mm though I think the IVA recommends every 300mm.

Jon


loggyboy - 15/9/14 at 11:30 AM

As with a lot of IVA items, its down to interpretation. If you use rubber fuel lines that may sag, droop or wobble once moving, you will need more support than metal ones.
As long as it looks neat tidy and secure you will be fine. Don't be concerned that one of the spacings is a little over any recommendations just because it suits where you can get your secure your fixings.
Check thru some build diaries on here to get some ideas.

I used stainless/rubberline Pclips on rivnuts at quite close spacing. I then tabbed on the electric routing to these also.




Jenko - 15/9/14 at 11:34 AM

I think the key words are 'must be adequately clipped'.........

The chap doing my IVA test certainly did not get a ruler out and measure the spacing, he did grab the lines and give them a wiggle. The 250mm brake lines seems reasonable, and many (including myself) have used the push in plastic cups to good effect.
LAND ROVER DISCOVERY 1 SINGLE BRAKE PIPE CLIPS - SET OF 10 - CRC1250L[/ebay]]Click


It was refreshing to see that IVA, there does appear to be an element of common sense thrown in to the test.


James - 15/9/14 at 01:08 PM

I used the mini black plastic 'P' clips available at kit car shows and the like. Plus the odd metal one where it was a funny angle and need to be bent or stronger something.

Strong enough, light and waterproof.

James

[Edited on 15/9/14 by James]


Slimy38 - 15/9/14 at 01:45 PM

One thing I would add is do a quick search for the various threads talking about T piece fittings, Mr IVA seems very hot on them being properly secure. One story I remember was someone had rivetted it to the chassis, but it was failed because it could still move slightly.


chris68 - 15/9/14 at 05:04 PM

Thats good to know. I was more concerned that I had missed an obvious section in the IVA manual, but it appears that some common sense will prevail.

Hadn't thought about the different materials for pipework requiring extra fixing if they are flexible but it makes logical sense.

I think as this is my first major build I am finding stuff that causes much head scratching - I am hoping that as I move along with the build I'll get more confident - got to start somewhere!

Thanks guys.


adithorp - 15/9/14 at 07:07 PM

There's no recommended spacing for brake or fuel pipe clips in the IVA manual. It does however say wiring should be secured at no more than 300mm intervals. Many people have applied the same spacing to brake and fuel and passed.


loggyboy - 15/9/14 at 07:41 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Slimy38
One thing I would add is do a quick search for the various threads talking about T piece fittings, Mr IVA seems very hot on them being properly secure. One story I remember was someone had rivetted it to the chassis, but it was failed because it could still move slightly.


I think this was likely a storm in a tea cup regarding rivnuts. If they had been secured by anything else that moved slightly it would have also failed. It was the sloppy install of rivnuts that failed, not the use of them for brake fixtures.


Slimy38 - 15/9/14 at 07:56 PM

quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
quote:
Originally posted by Slimy38
One thing I would add is do a quick search for the various threads talking about T piece fittings, Mr IVA seems very hot on them being properly secure. One story I remember was someone had rivetted it to the chassis, but it was failed because it could still move slightly.


I think this was likely a storm in a tea cup regarding rivnuts. If they had been secured by anything else that moved slightly it would have also failed. It was the sloppy install of rivnuts that failed, not the use of them for brake fixtures.


Yes, I perhaps phrased my post badly by using that particular example. I was trying to emphasis the 'properly secure' bit rather than the fixing method.


loggyboy - 15/9/14 at 09:31 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Slimy38

Yes, I perhaps phrased my post badly by using that particular example. I was trying to emphasis the 'properly secure' bit rather than the fixing method.


No your phrasing was good, I mistook as rivnut bash, which it clearly wasnt. They have been when previously brought up on this subject.


britishtrident - 16/9/14 at 07:36 AM

Use proper OEM style brake and fuel line pop-in plastic clips they are are cheap as chips quick and easy to fit and unlike P-Clips look professional. You can get double pop-in clips that hold both brake and fuel lines.

For an easy time at IVA always try and use methods major car manufacturers use rather than a "one off" solution

If you look at a tintop you will find long runs of pipe are secured at about 1ft/300mm intervals but there are exceptions on tintops where longer pipe runs are used between clips such as the master cylinder pipe work on 1970s Fords
If you clip long runs of pipe excessively closely it only serve to draw the testers attention.

What the tester is looking for is that the pipe is no going sag or vibrate excessively which could cause fatigue or chaffing.
The tester will wiggle and also pluck the pipe to see if it vibrates excessively. He will also be looking for excessive tension in the pipe caused by the pipe has been made too short.

The pipe should stand clear of the chassis or body work by 1mm+ to prevent chaffing, slipping short lengths of windscreen washer tube over the brake pipe before flairing can be useful to protect the pipe.

Where metal clips are used as on Ford English axles the use of very short lengths rubber or plastic tube over the pipe to prevent metal to metal contact is essential to avoid IVA or MOT failure