Will standard 8mm micro bore copper pipe be OK for fuel pipe? Will it satisfy the SVA man?

I only ask because I've got loads of it in the garage.

i hope so as thats what i've used.

Yes it will.

Are you using carbs or injection?

Will be carbs, cant afford anything new enough to have injection... lol

GSXR 1100 engine CR flatslides, hopefully.

most people seem to use it.

Should be ok with carbs but i wouldnt use it on injection motors

why not, i was planning to when i upgrade from carbs to injection to re-use the lines.

I used 8mm copper, and covered it with Split convoluted tubing from my local Lucas (LSUK) depot. Cheaper than buying it from a "specialist" (read high priced) kit car place.
Covering it will help stop corrosion.
In hindsight I would have painted it in waxoyl as well

Also keep the pipes well above the bottom of the transmission tunnel line, so it wont get crushed if you bottom the car on a bumpy road.

quote:

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Originally posted by R1minimagic
Should be ok with carbs but i wouldnt use it on injection motors

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Originally posted by Hellfire

quote:

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Originally posted by R1minimagic
Should be ok with carbs but i wouldnt use it on injection motors

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Why ever not?????

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My kunifer pipe is rated at twice what the TUV want, so if ze germans are happy with it so am I.

Copper is the worst metal for causing injector deposits. Very low ppm levels of copper will dissolve into the fuel and cause gums etc to build up on your injectors. Over time you will lose power, engine will become smokier and eventually have to change the injectors. The more modern the engine, the worse the situation, as the injector holes become smaller and smaller to improve emissions and fuel economy. Not so much of a problem with carbs as the orifices are larger. In my opinion, it is not worth scrimping to save a few pounds just because you have some lying around the garage. In the long run, you might end up regretting it!!

Also, as injection engines use a higher fuel pressure and therefore a fuel return line back to the tank, the fuel flow rates are much higher. This will lead to a greater level of copper leaching into the fuel with injection engines.

Using an injector cleaner could help, but it is better not to use copper pipes in the first place..

I am sorry if i have caused any panic here, but thought it best to let people know what can happen.



[Edited on 7/5/06 by R1minimagic]

Interesting, you might want to tell the people at PPC (Practical Performance Car). They've been making fuel rails out of domestic 15mm copper pipe. I was thinking of doing the same when i convert to FI.

Looks like i'll have to use the (BMW) mini fuel lines my mate got me from his work.

Doesn't sound good, the fuel in the rail will be hotter than the fuel in the tank, so even more potential for contamination!!

don't want to sound rude but .......

have you got any evidence of this?

I am a R&D chemist for a fuel additives company. I do lots of engine testing with various fuels and additives so it is my job to know this stuff. There is loads of evidence on the web if you search for it.

Most major fuel marketers are searching for additives to deactivate/remove copper from fuel, they wouldnt do that without a good reason!!

Check here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_deactivator

[Edited on 7/5/06 by R1minimagic]

point taken, but I'm sure this effect is going to be over years not months (obviously all depends on usage)

Thanks, just wondering if it was a case of something you over heard someone in the pub saying or if you've got some qualification. Think you probably fall into the latter category

So any idea of speed of the effect? Our cars aren't used much, just wondering if it is something we'll encounter over 10 years, 5 years or next year.

Thats a difficult one to answer!

As copper is not used as a material for fuel lines by OEM's there is not much to go off. Variables such as fuel quality, fuel temperature, detergent level, lubricity level etc all play their part, not to mention differences in fuel injector design and fuel filters used. That's the problem with kit cars, everyone has a different setup!!

The only real way to test the effect is to have your fuel injectors flow tested but you would have to compare "like with like" systems where the only difference is the copper fuel line... and I imagine its expensive to get a flow test carried out. All i can say is that work i have been involved with shows that very low levels of metals (ie ppm and ppb) can cause severe problems with modern fuel injectors. Typical power losses due to injector fouling can be more than 10% in less than 100 hours.

I think the best way to put your mind at rest is to not use copper tubing. Here is another forum thread that i found about copper fuel lines in vehicles using biodiesel/vegetable oil fuel. This type of fuel is far more severe than petrol as it contains a higher level of 'free acids' which accelerate copper leaching into the fuel.

http://www.greasecar.com/forum_topicview.cfm?frmtopicID=1225

Enjoy!!!

Can you advise me whether any lead replacement additves are safe to use in an engine fitted with an oxygen sensor?.Ive asked this question before ,and rung around some of the additive manufacturers and not got a definitive answer.My car is a crossflow with a leaded head but running megasquirt injection , I have been running on super unleaded whilst setting up using an oxygen sensor, but would like to be able to add some valve seat protection.
Paul

quote:

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Originally posted by R1minimagic
I am a R&D chemist for a fuel additives company. I do lots of engine testing with various fuels and additives so it is my job to know this stuff.

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MikeR - 7/5/06 at 11:32 PM

Spoke to my mate who designs fuel systems for a living. He started off by asking me what the hell i was doing with copper when he'd given me those Insert-word-of-special-fuel-pipe-alloy-i-can't-remember-here pipes. I explained and he said .....

"yeah, its a problem, why do you think we now use that special alloy?"

So, two independent sources saying the same thing. Looks like a few people are going to be getting a smidgen worried.

Just a bit miffed i can't use it to make my fuel rail up when i go FI!

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DarrenW - 8/5/06 at 09:09 AM

Steve - i used Mac#1 supplied braided hose for the fuel lines. I think it was supplied with the kit, if not its not too expensive, dead easy to work with and looks great.

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irvined - 8/5/06 at 01:00 PM

I used 8mm standard copper pipe and SVA guy didnt bat an eyelid.

HTH

David

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MikeR - 8/5/06 at 05:43 PM

you're on a carb, you'll be fine.

Its still a SVA pass, its just long term FI worry.

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R1minimagic - 8/5/06 at 06:32 PM

Paul

The lead in petrol is there for 2 main reasons

1.) Octane booster
2.) Exhaust valve seat protection

It sounds like you have converted an engine that has a leaded head to run with fuel injection?? As most effective lead replacement additives still use metals to provide valve seat protection i would be worried about using them with fuel injection for the same reasons as copper. Lead is also especially bad for injector deposits, like copper. Older engines with carbs were fine running on leaded fuel but i cant think of any injection engines that use leaded fuel...

So you could have 2 problems if you use lead replacement additives containing metals.

1) Injector fouling
2) Lambda sensor fouling

The lambda sensor relies on a zirconium dioxide element or similar to measure the oxygen content of the exhaust for the purpose of air/fuel ratio adjustment. As metal containing additives are not 'ashless' (they cannot burn completely but form oxides) they will end up coating the element and redusing the life of the sensor. I think they are only designed to have a life of 30-50k anyway.

I think the best thing would be to check if your head needs valve seat protection, it might be fine to run with normal unleaded fuel without any extra protection, check with the manufacturer. I ran a mini with a leaded head on unleaded fuel for years with absolutely no problems whatsoever, maybe i was lucky, i dont know...

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BKLOCO - 8/5/06 at 07:15 PM

All this sounds very plausible and may or may not be a cause for concern in our cars. Time will tell.
However I have just had a thought (rare for me I know).
If you are running a lambda sensor in closed loop (particularly a wide band lambda) then any "fouling" of the injectors would be compensated for by the sensor "seeing" lean burn and increasing the injector pulse width accordingly.

Edit:
Sorry I should have made it clear I'm talking about the copper fuel line issue here not the leaded.unleaded debate.

[Edited on 8-5-06 by BKLOCO]

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MikeR - 8/5/06 at 07:16 PM

i thought one of the tricks was to alternate fuel. Didn't ford say run 1 tank in 4 with leaded for the old sierras?

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paulf - 8/5/06 at 08:16 PM

i made my injection rail from some 10mm steel tube and silver soldered stainless steel injector fittings to it.
Paul.

quote:

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Originally posted by MikeR
Spoke to my mate who designs fuel Just a bit miffed i can't use it to make my fuel rail up when i go FI!

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MikeR - 8/5/06 at 09:36 PM

but where did you get the tube from? Copper pipe and bits where easy to source

wonder if i can use that new plastic pipe builders are using?

(that was a joke)

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R1minimagic - 8/5/06 at 09:43 PM

The injector opening time is not usually adjustable with a factory ecu, maybe it could be with an aftermarket ecu. Even then, the emissions would increase so you would probably fail the MOT test and fuel economy would suffer

The other consideration is that a fuel flow loss would usually be compensated for by the driver (you would press the throttle a bit more) but if you are at full throttle/load that is not an option!!

[Edited on 8/5/06 by R1minimagic]

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BKLOCO - 8/5/06 at 09:57 PM

I don't think you could have read my post correctly.
I am not suggesting that you would manually increase the injector opening time.

Any ECU (original or after market) in "closed loop" opperation will adjust the injector opening time dependant on the O2 reading of the lambda sensor.
This is how ECU's work.
Therefore it logically follows that if the injectors are not supplying sufficient fuel to give the lambda reading that the AFR table is expecting the injector pulse width will increase to satisfy the lambda.

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R1minimagic - 8/5/06 at 10:08 PM

Sorry, I am a bit pissed at the moment so i did not say what i meant. What i meant to say was there are limitations to injector lift and opening time. Of course the pulse width/lift can increase a bit to supply more fuel but only within certain limits. The valve lift is limited by injector design and the pulse width is limited by engine speed. If you go too far then engine power will be effected and you run into timing problems. In any case the deposits will always cause fuel atomisation to be less efficient and ultimately reduce economy and increase emissions. OEM's always seem to tune engines so that they only just pass whatever test is imposed upon them. Any more costs them money...

[Edited on 8/5/06 by R1minimagic]

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highspeeddirt - 8/5/06 at 10:13 PM

As I'm still building at the moment I could remove all my copper line and replace it with alloy but do I need to replace both the feed and return lines or will just the feed be okay? Would a fuel filter before the injectors but after the copper pipe help? Just looking for options before I rip out all the lines.

Steve

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R1minimagic - 8/5/06 at 10:16 PM

No point in just replacing feed, you would need to do both feed and return. A fuel filter will not filter out copper as it is dissolved in the fuel although it would filter out any deposits formed before the filter.

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highspeeddirt - 8/5/06 at 10:31 PM

Okay thanks. Out come the fuel lines then

Steve

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BKLOCO - 8/5/06 at 11:05 PM

It's obviously your decision Steve but I don't think I would be too hasty if I were you.
There are plenty of people who are running Injection systems using copper pipe and there have not yet been any reported problems yet.
As has been asked already. What time period are we talking here 50,000, 100,000 200,000 miles? That could be a VERY long time in our cars.
Sometimes you maybe have to balance theory against practice.
I know what I'd do.
As I say though.
Your decision, your car.

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NS Dev - 9/5/06 at 08:56 AM

I'd be inclined to agree BKloco.

We've run copper or cupro-nickel lines in a number of cars, which have done "significant" mileages (10,000+ miles) and two of those have had more than one power run on rolling roads, were fuel injected, and showed no power difference.

Whilst I don't have the slightest doubt about the theory, in practice for "enthusiast vehicles" I think there is no problem.

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zxrlocost - 9/5/06 at 09:00 AM

8mm copper pipe down the tunnel fuel pipe at the start and end and its staying simple as

apparently experts reckoned petrol was going to run out in 1976

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Hellfire - 9/5/06 at 11:48 AM

I would say as BKLOCO and NS Dev. If you have fitted your lines already, leave them and forget about them. If however, you can get an alternative material, at a similar price and haven't fitted your fuel lines yet, then go for it.

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MikeR - 9/5/06 at 05:27 PM

how does for free sound ?



Should have some left over when i fit it some time in 2008 as well anyone want some?

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Hellfire - 9/5/06 at 05:33 PM

Free always sounds good........

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MikeR - 9/5/06 at 05:44 PM

yeah but you prepared to wait

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owelly - 16/5/06 at 01:59 AM

I have been running a Vectra with copper fuel pipes (plastic ones were being targetted by petrol burglers!!) for three years and just short of 40,000 miles with no evidence of ill effects. I have also got in front of me the analysis results for 28seconds fuel oil (paraffin), 35seconds light fuel oil (red diesel) and unleaded petrol that has been circulating through copper trace lines continuosly for the past 6 months, and these results have not picked up anything detrimental to the further use of these fuels.

I'm not saying that it is wrong or right to use copper pipe (or if my analysis results contain the searches for whatever buggers up injectors), but if I still had them fitted to my car, I certainly wouldn't consider changing them!!

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