Has anyone tried building a car with the sierra 4x4 system?

I will have a full spare set of running gear from a DOHC sierra next year and want to build a 4x4 locost.

Looking at my freinds RH2b yesterday seemed to confirm that there is enugh space ahead of the engine to build up a mounting cradel for the diff and transfer shaft unit.

How much narrower is the front track on the avarage locost?

Cheers

TT

A couple have been done/are being done.

"The average Locost"??? I don't think there is such a thing!

They're generally 1" narrower at the front.

Hope that helps,

James

you'll need to mod the front suspension to fit the front driveshafts etc in, some have gone for inboard to make it easier to fit. ben4x4shepheard rings a bell as someone onhere who's attempted it. don't know how far he is/ever got..

Ned.

cheffy is building a 4 x 4 locost from a sierra. He is on here occasionally and is more than willing to help where he can.

Think he has spend 2 years working on the chassis so far.....

i really don't think it would be a problem
having inboard at the fron t seems a good place to start,

also does having a 4x4 drivetrain impose restrictions on the wheelbase? you could have custom prop shafts i spose

i have often wanted to do this,

Looking at the RH yesterday the diff would sit about another props length further forward.. Which could be ideal as with two props back to back I could have some sort of center bearing..

1" Narower sounds fine, should be able to take that out in the transfer shaft from the diff to the other side.

There was one guy that had a website but it has died.. not sure what happend to the car.

I have all the parts to do the job, in fact I don;t have a correct 2wd box so I am more inclined to try the 4x4 system..

TT

Is that 1" narrower than the escort track?

I guess it must be..

Anyone know the difference between sierra & escort track?

TT

track different doesn't really matter. ther are adpaters out there to lengthen the escort rack, but if you ahve sierra running gear just use that. you can just make the front wishbones longer to suit.

the 2 props are not alighned, one comes off the transfer box of he 4x4. try some searches onthis site, this has all been discussed before.

Ned.

I know the 4x4 system very well, I have had 6 XR4x4's.

I think the largest hurdel will be either the front coilovers or the front prop intruding on the footwell.


TT

TT,

What engine are you intending using?

Cheers,

James

The ford I4 DOHC.

TT

The Honda (? or is it Mazda?) desgined Duratec?

Cool- nice engine!

You'll have trouble mating the 4x4 gearbox to it won't you? Or is there a Type9 4x4 gearbox?

James

Type 9 4WD on 2.8 XR4x4.

Adam

the i4 dohc

is the pre runner to the zetec as used in the sierra big heavy chain drivven cam lump

as fitted to later xr4x4

[Edited on 22/7/04 by timf]

Ford engine,

MT75 either RWD or 4x4 box.

it's the same bottom end as the escort Mk5/6 RS2000 16V engine.

It's similar in weight to a Pinto but more torquey as standard and smoother.

TT

Of course. Sorry, thought you meant the Duratec (which IIRC is also called an I4) - something I'm considering for a future upgrade.
It doesn't use the Ford bellhousing pattern (as it's been designed by Mazda) which is why I wondered if you were gonna have problems with the gearbox.

Anyway, probably best if I shut up now!

James

James, it's an easy mistake. Talking of duratecs, is there a special bellhousing to connect it to an MT75?

Adam

For info on the 4x4 in a seven idea, have a look at the dax rush, they have been building these with cossie turbo engines and modded sierra 4x4 running gear for many years.

The 8v I4 engine is pretty (well....very) crap, I presume you mean the 16v one from a scorpio or RS2000? Both of them are extremely heavy (more so than the cossie lump and that's heavy) but at least the 16v is tuneable to 200hp without TOO much work. Maybe worth using the 2.3 16v one from a late scorpio? Weighs the same but a bit bigger and you can always chuck the balancer shafts and all that gubbins away!!

(PS I run XR 4x4's on the road too by the way! (2.9 at the mo))

The 8v I4 can't be that much heavier than the pinto.. Only going to use it as it will be surplus, although I am looking at a RS2k lump at the moment.

The duratec is a revision of the Zetec and as such should bolt right up to the standard I4/Zetec MT(X)75 Boxs. But not the Type 9.

I have run XR4x4s on the road for some time, mainly 2.9's as the 2.0 is a bit poor for such a heavy car.

Should be OK in the Locost though, prehaps not brilliant but a starting point. And can always replace with a 2.0 Zetec which should be a bolt in replacement.

TT

If only I could afford a Dax Quadra but this build is going to have to be fairly economical..

TT

if the 8v engine is surplus then it would be ideal to use as a "dummy" engine to build the car around and then put a 16v in later, that way you get the chance to shop around for the 16v engine and can crack on with the car now! I know the Dax is pricey, I certainly can't afford one!!

The 16v version (scorpio or RS2k) of the I4 engine is a good engine but is a fair bit (memory says 20kg) heavier than the pinto with all ancilliaries.

Having said that, the 2.3 16v and 2.0 16v I4's are getting seriously cheap now (like £500 for an entire crashed scorpio with all running gear, obviously you'd need a flywheel as this would be auto but maybe the 8v one is the same?)

Also maybe a bit more weight on the front end is not so bad with 4wd?

Certainly an interesting project and would make a very quick point and squirt car!!!!

does the front prop on a 4x4 sierra go down the drivers side? this is the main problem if it does, you either need small feet, a wider car or the engine further forward. Plus, it has been suggested that for the extra weight it doesnt offer much of an improvement in handling. But it is certainly a fun idea.

Yes, the prop is on the drivers side, did wonder about accomodating it? How did Dax do it I wonder?

It doesn't stick out much more (if any more) than the clutch release arm but I suppose this is in front of the footwell on most cars........good question Joel!

Certainly the prop is low down (the chain stepoff drive is diagonally downwards) and to fit this gearbox to a normal 2wd sierra shell only requires a very small mod to the floor (I have done this in the past) so you could probably put a "step" into the tunnel side on the driver's side at the bottom, and if you look at where your feet go in a sierra anyway, the footwell is very narrow and your feet point outwards at the top to cover the clutch and (not so much) the accelerator.

I guess it will be very very tight but not impossible to do with a bit of thought and adaptation.

The prop and transfer box may be the killer for the Idea.

I will build up the chassis to plan and then see what space there is. I have a 1.8 Pinto and RWD Box spare too so can run with that until I find something better for the job.

The prop sits about 3" further out from teh bellhousing by the time it reaches teh original front diff location..

It may be possible to angle it down slightly to gain a little extra room..

TT

I have a Dax Rush Quadra and the 4x4 bit is all very tightly packed into the front of the car. Just to answer a few of your questions, the transfer case and front prop does protrude into the drivers side of the cockpit, the front prop has a centre bearing which hangs off the side of the bellhousing, the front driveshafts slot behind the front coilovers, the engine in a Rush sits slightly over to one side to allow more room for all of the transmission and the Turbo (cooked feet anyone). Expect to loose about 33% of your BHP through the transmission, Dax reckon unless you have more than 280bhp you might as well stick with 2wd and above 70 mph the 2wd car accelerates quicker, but the 4wd car launches quicker off the line and can get its power down easier out of corners. A fun project none the less.

Mike
Rescued attachment Dscn0854.jpg

Cheers...

Have you got any photos of the engine bay?

Ta

TT

I have build the chassic and running gear (but not done anything on the car for about 18months. Planning to get back into it in the next few weeks.

I have the rear as stabdard IRS, the front hat a sierra streeing rack (to save chopping the front driveshafts, the front prop runs up the drivers footwell and takes quite a bit of space (I have a standard width chassis), the front prop was also extended by about 10in and a bearing with splined joint. The front diff is ahead of the engine (10in forward of the original location). my website is still active although not updated for some time but it does give some idea of some of the work.

The engine is a 2.8 lump.

That's the one I found first of all, so I knew it was generaly possible..

All the Big pics don't load anymore... so I can't quite see what you have done..

Whereabouts are you in Central Jockland?

Ta

Rob

Rob,

Yahoo have upgraded the photo site I was using so I have changed the links to the photos on my site. You should be able to access the folders for the photos.

Ewan

What did you do about the bottom bal joint?

TT

Hi Twinturbo, Cheffy here. As stated by Chris Russel (hi Chris) I'm going 4x4 using a 2.9V6 XR4x4 as donor. Click on the web site link below to see where I'm at so far. The photo's on the web site are about a year old but I haven't done a lot more since due to work commitments and the daughters impending wedding - no money left!!!

Hope it's of some help, good luck with the build.

Cheffy

PS. Re: Bottom ball joint. It's been about 2 years since I bought them and I have a crap memory, but IIRC, the bottom ball joints from a MK5 Escort are the correct taper and size for the bottom of the Sierra 4x4 upright.

Cheffy

Ther is no taper on the 4x4 is there? It uses a grove and through bolt for location..

MK5 escort, will have to check on that as Ity was one part that seemed to me to be a possible problem..

A FWD application woul seem a sensible donor though..

TT

I used the original link arm and hacked it down to a 6 in long balljoint. Then dirlled 2 holes in it to bolt it to the lower arm (so I can replace it if required.

Ewan

Yeah I just managed to make that out in the photo's... Wan't to avoid that as I want to keep spare Lower arms for my 24V 4x4 Sapphire...

The Mk5 Escort parts sound ideal if they are the right ones..

TT

Yep, straight with a groove in it. I've just taken a couple of photo's, I'll put them in my photo archive.

I'm going for inboard coilovers so the weight will be pressing down through the upright from the top as it would be in a McPherson set up. There was a lengthy thread on here some time ago where people were expressing concerns that lower ball joints designed to work with a McPherson set up would fail in a standard wishbone setup (with the coilover attached to the lower wishbone) where the forces are acting to force the lower ball joint apart.

Cheers,

Cheffy

Right I've put the photo in my archive. Also, I've just been looking back at old posts. If you check my profile, then go to 'Search for all posts by this user' there was a thread started on 14/10/2002 entitled something like '4x4 uprights and Fiesta Balljoints'. check that out. The more I think about it and after re-reading the old posts, I'm 99.9% sure I used Escort Mk5 ball joints.

Hope this helps some,

Cheers,

Cheffy

I picked up a second hand chassis the other day, and placed the diff at the front..

There's not realy enugh space for it in terns of width with the standard crossover tube..

I think the 1st build will be 2wd and then build a widebody for the 4x4 after that's done..

TT

Hello...

You know you're posting has got a bit slack when people forget your existance!! (and i miss posts about 4x4s!).

I've reached rolling chassis with my 4x4 beast. It's down the hangar where I work and taken to bits so i can paint the chassis - but i have this piccy i took just before its monumental first garage rollout!

Chassis is standard width at the front (although heavily redesigned). Suspension is inboard all round, bottom front bjs are Fiesta and top mushrooms are a one-off from good old MK (for the price of standard ones - what a guy).

Liam
Rescued attachment 2004_0730_162957AA.JPG

Hi Liam,

Interesting stuff, I'm looking to do something vaguely similar to you. Where did you get your coilovers and how much were they if you don't mind me asking?

Cheers,

Cheffy

Hellooo...

Shocks are avo pro race spherical bearing versions. My design calls for quite short (11" open) shocks and the smaller 1.9" spring versions. Never really pop up on ebay or owt with that spec so I splashed out on new ones (just 2 for now). Something like 70 squid each - sounds OK but with VAT, springs, VAT on springs, delivery, VAT on delivery, VAT on VAT, extra VAT etc etc it added up to a mildly nasty 250 squid for the two!! Oh well they say you get what you pay for with shocks and I was always gonna use brand new ones. Bounce up and down beautifully so they do. Will be most expensive part of the car probably.

liam

Cheers Liam,

Haven't worked out exactly wot size I'm gonna need but it not gonna be a lot different to yours. Where did you get 'em?

Cheers,

Cheffy

Yo

Just phoned avo direct. They're based in northampton.

Liam

Just thinking, how can you attatch a 4wd system to a bike engine? I know Z-cars have done it with 2 engines but what about just having the one?

Adam

you would need a seperate transfer box. With a bike engine i cant see the benefit in 4wd, the extra 2 diffs and gubbins must weight a fair bit, which isnt what you want with bike engines. Id use a donor car with 4wd and a turbo, for lots of power etc. infact, myself, i would invest in some very light 8 inch rear wheels and sod the 4wd, just get it all set up and balanced well.

8 inch wide that is, t'would be a bit daft on 8 inch rims!

[Edited on 19/8/04 by JoelP]

However well set up it is...

It won't come near a locost with 4x4..

8" rims may give better traction for acceleration but It's high speed cornering where the 4x4 realy comes in handy...

TT

I was just about to say, the discs are bigger than that

Adam

It should be possible to make up an adapter for a bike engine to the sierra type 9 transfer box.

But the bigest problem would be lack of torque. The bike engine would struggle..

TT