Hi,
Can anyone see a problem if I rose-jointed only the back mount on each of the front lower wishbones?
Pat...
Not me
Would weld a threaded slug into the wishbones ends and screw the rose joint into this.
Will the welded joint be as strong as welding an eye onto the end of the bone?
Pat...
It works fine on the rear of the Avon, and many other cars with Rose jointed suspension. As long as the weld is sound, and I'm sure yours (Carls)
will be
I think that is how the rears on your Avon are done isn't it Pat? Shuld be OK as long as the weld is good enough.
Avon bloke....make summat that goes inside the tube then fish mouth the end of the tube as well so you have bigger weld area.....as long as yo use a
quality imperial rose joint not that metric crap you will be ok, they don't last very long though.
Cheers
Mark
Rose joints are stronger when used on their side if that makes sense...?........so bolt goes down rather than sidey ways as per normal wishbone set up.......only prob then is movement so spacers or high angle joints might be needed.
Cheers.
Should look "technically engineered" as well with only the back bracket done on each of the front lower wishbones.
Trouble is the bone tube is only 19mm diameter so might be pusing it to fit a 1/2" rose joint.
Anyone know how small a size I could use?
Thanks,
Pat...
If you use it for adjustment you'll pull the bush in the front one out of alignment. I can't see any purpose to it.
Hi Pete,
Was waiting for that question.
One of the eyes on my bones has been welded off centre and I'm not happy with it.
It would be easier, cheaper and quicker to replace this eye with a rose joint.
But would have to do the other side to make it look ok.
Hope it makes sense now.
Pat...
I have been off for a week, somebody correct me if I'm wrong. The pictures I saw of the offending wishbone looked to me as if the mounting holes
were correct but the wishbone tubes (specificaly the rear tube) had been welded on off centre. If this is the case then tally ho, carry on as normal.
If you want to weld in a tube for a rose joint then you still need to ensure that it is in the same plane as the front joint as a rose joint is only
adjustable in one plane.
Peteff is correct as usual.
quote:
Originally posted by Triton
Rose joints are stronger when used on their side if that makes sense...?........so bolt goes down rather than sidey ways as per normal wishbone set up.......only prob then is movement so spacers or high angle joints might be needed.
hi Pat
sounds like a crappy way to fix the problem with your wish bone to me, bite the bullit and make some new bones that are right . by the time you
chase up / make the adaptor and a rose joint you could have made NEW bones
Best wishes
Iain
This is just more crap. Make the thing properly and the way it was intended, before you wipe someone else out on the roads.
quote:
Originally posted by Triton
.....as long as yo use a quality imperial rose joint not that metric crap you will be ok, they don't last very long though.
Cheers
Mark
quote:
Originally posted by gazza285
quote:
Originally posted by Triton
Rose joints are stronger when used on their side if that makes sense...?........so bolt goes down rather than sidey ways as per normal wishbone set up.......only prob then is movement so spacers or high angle joints might be needed.
Any chance of you proving this bold statement? After many years of working in industry it’s always nice to learn of new thinking.
quote:
Originally posted by Triton
.....as long as yo use a quality imperial rose joint not that metric crap you will be ok, ....
Cheers
Mark
Language gentlemen please!
I already have a rose joint and a threaded insert, which would make it a lot easier and cheaper and less time consuming, so what would be the
problem?
Both the arms on the bone are parallel and horizontal, it's just one eye that's the problem.
I can do all four mountings if it will make anyone happier.
Pat...
i am also using all four on rose joints metric ones at that cant see a problem many race cars on and off road have been using them for years
I think the more significant downside of Metric rod ends is the fact they are so flipping expensive! Imperial ones (even decent ones) are much cheaper due to being produced in vast bulk by our friends in the good-ol USofA.
quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
I think the more significant downside of Metric rod ends is the fact they are so flipping expensive! Imperial ones (even decent ones) are much cheaper due to being produced in vast bulk by our friends in the good-ol USofA.
Quality rod ends are expensive, cheap ones are just that cheap ones.
They bend if used vertical(ie withbolt running sideyways) they are stronger run flat....just look at any race car that is fitted with
them..........but onsaying that most use fixed 'bones with spherical bearing and gain adjustment at location point on chassis using
shims....which is easier to do and allows fixed settings to be used for different reasons.
Metric may well be rated similar to Imperial but they cost a F*** sight more so use imperial.......
ns dev is that your special in your avatar
i know a couple of grasstrack lads round my area
Within the motorsport bullshit world it's regarded as being naff to use rod ends on 'bones because it shows perhaps that they are not that accurate in the first place.
quote:
Originally posted by rash
ns dev is that your special in your avatar
i know a couple of grasstrack lads round my area
quote:
Originally posted by gazza285
quote:
Originally posted by Triton
Rose joints are stronger when used on their side if that makes sense...?........so bolt goes down rather than sidey ways as per normal wishbone set up.......only prob then is movement so spacers or high angle joints might be needed.
Any chance of you proving this bold statement? After many years of working in industry it’s always nice to learn of new thinking.
Not seeking to argue, as I really don't care, but if the joint was that worn, then it popping out is really only a safety question, in which case it wouldn't matter very much as the joint would be "caught" by the bolt anyway, it can't come off completely, unless mounted on a single shear bracket, in which case it was badly designed anyway!
So, as per my original question:
Can anyone see a problem with me using one instead of the back "eyes" on both lower wishbones?
Pat...
quote:
Basically, it was said that under heavy braking, the forces could pop a worn bearing out of its housing if the bolt was horizontal (not the rotary force of braking, but the actual effect of the bones being stopped and the car wanting to go on). Hence using it with a vertical bolt, since they often have enough movement to cover it anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by Avoneer
So, as per my original question:
Can anyone see a problem with me using one instead of the back "eyes" on both lower wishbones?
Pat...
quote:
Originally posted by Jonr
So what about conering forces or going over a hefty bump?
i dont really have any useful input on your problem maybe send it back again! quote:
Originally posted by Triton
.. rod ends ... bend if used vertical(ie withbolt running sideyways) they are stronger run flat....
quote:
Originally posted by Triton Within the motorsport bullshit world it's regarded as being naff to use rod ends on 'bones because it shows perhaps that they are not that accurate in the first place.
Rorty,
Deary me are yet another one who believes in all that motorsport bullshit.....Firm i worked for built a NSS chassis 5 yrs ago that was heavily clamped
in jig whilst welding and yes it was tig welded.......it shrunk and pinged like a twat when pulled from the very expensive jig........so it's all
bollox mate.
Read a feature in one of those kitcar joke books about some firm who can be within 1 to 2 mm over a 10ft long chassis........ummm now that's
bullshit.
Guys guys guys, chill out.
No need for all the language.
We all have different opinions and I listen to them all, but this is my thread and I'm after a simple answer to my problem.
Despite what everyone has said, no one has yet said that it would be a problem or be any better or worse than not doing it.
So is this my answer???
Thanks,
Pat...
Avon bloke,
Make a new set of 'bones mate, easy to knock up a jig to align the pivots...clamp them up to tack them........but don't weld them
clamped......they will close up if you do.
No doubt somebody will try and shoot me down in flames but hey...only spent the last 20yrs as a fabricator what do i know!
OK, in response to the original question, if I were in the same situation I would replace all the inboard bushes with rose type joints.
Reasons:
1. If you have to take corrective action then you might as well get some additional benefit, (in this case adjustability in camber and castor)
2. Purely cosmetic
Cheers Mick
PS I've used rose joints in my IRS, got them from Nick Skidmore who posts on here, very pleased with the product and service. Why not see what he
has available?
Avoneer, are the wishbones bought in or made by your self? Judging by previous topics, I would say they are bought in. In which case send them back where they came from if you can and get a decent pair back.
This is the 2nd pair I have had. Only had a quick look at them and told the supplier they were ok.
Upon proper inspection, I noticed this mis-alignment.
Not sure I want to bother the supplier again, as these were made up as a one-off just for me to a different specification to what is normally
supplied.
And then there's the postage costs and additional time and all that when all I want to do is crack on with my car.
May be easier for me to bite the bullet and just buy some GTS lower bones like I should have done in the first place!
Pat...
Surely you could send them back though if they are misaligned? Unless you had them done as a favour, but all the same they should be right in the first place.
Trouble with screwing rod ends into bones is that the adjustment is quantised in 1/2 turn steps - this would equate to a couple of degrees at the
wheel - not much use if you want 0.4 degrees of negative camber +/- 0.2degrees.
Sorry if someone's already pointed this out, I couldn't be bothered reading the whole thread.
luv
Bob
Sorry for the language used in my reply
That's why shims at fixing point is a far better way to have adjustable suspension...
swear all you like mate doesn't bother me, as long as people accept i am the way i am if not that's there problem not mine....
Hi Again Pat
Just wondering how much mis aligned your bones are ? can they be tweeked after the aplication of a bit of heat from the oxy?
best wishes
Iain
quote:
Originally posted by Triton
Rorty,
Deary me are yet another one who believes in all that motorsport bullshit.....Firm i worked for built a NSS chassis 5 yrs ago that was heavily clamped in jig whilst welding and yes it was tig welded.......it shrunk and pinged like a twat when pulled from the very expensive jig........so it's all bollox mate.
Read a feature in one of those kitcar joke books about some firm who can be within 1 to 2 mm over a 10ft long chassis........ummm now that's bullshit.
quote:
Originally posted by Avoneer
This is the 2nd pair I have had. Only had a quick look at them and told the supplier they were ok.
Upon proper inspection, I noticed this mis-alignment.
Not sure I want to bother the supplier again, as these were made up as a one-off just for me to a different specification to what is normally supplied.
And then there's the postage costs and additional time and all that when all I want to do is crack on with my car.
May be easier for me to bite the bullet and just buy some GTS lower bones like I should have done in the first place!
Pat...
quote:
Originally posted by Rorty
I don’t believe in all the motorsport bullspit, but I do believe in accurately jigged chassis and wishbones. I can’t comment on the system used to produce the ones you refer to, but I have been in motorsport for forty years and the wishbones I make in my jigs don’t move one jot. There would be no point in making the jigs otherwise. Attention to welding sequence plays a major part in the accuracy of any welded structure. If one of my wishbones “pinged like a tw4t”, I wouldn’t use it because the inbuilt stresses and tension would soon fracture it and cause undue wear to the rod ends too.
As for obtaining accuracy of 2mm over a 3m chassis, it is doable. Even my off-road chassis are close to that and I’ve built bitumen cars and road-going cars within those parameters. If you don’t believe it’s possible, then you’ve not learned much about car construction in your twenty years. Judging by some of your comments like “swear all you like mate doesn't bother me …. that's there problem not mine.” you’re evidently a fairly coarse individual who would probably be oblivious to the finer points of many disciplines.
Don’t put others down and make disparaging remarks about those who strive for near-perfect results just because you don’t know any different.
Pat,
You probably realise this but as it could save a lot of hassle I'll point it out *just* in case.
The wishbones often 'look' out. It's caused by an optical illusion. I thought mine were and kept trying to correct them. In the end I
turned up a bar the same as the I.D. of the tubes and as it could pass though them both I knew they were inline.
Anyway, just suggesting it in case your bones really are straight!
HTH,
James
No, not building an ST and not using their bones either.
Building a Locost.
Will use my bones as they are for now and worry about it later.
Pat...
Doh, well where did I get that idea from, with my brain would work!!!
quote:
Originally posted by Syd Bridge
quote:
Originally posted by Rorty
I don’t believe in all the motorsport bullspit, but I do believe in accurately jigged chassis and wishbones. I can’t comment on the system used to produce the ones you refer to, but I have been in motorsport for forty years and the wishbones I make in my jigs don’t move one jot. There would be no point in making the jigs otherwise. Attention to welding sequence plays a major part in the accuracy of any welded structure. If one of my wishbones “pinged like a tw4t”, I wouldn’t use it because the inbuilt stresses and tension would soon fracture it and cause undue wear to the rod ends too.
As for obtaining accuracy of 2mm over a 3m chassis, it is doable. Even my off-road chassis are close to that and I’ve built bitumen cars and road-going cars within those parameters. If you don’t believe it’s possible, then you’ve not learned much about car construction in your twenty years. Judging by some of your comments like “swear all you like mate doesn't bother me …. that's there problem not mine.” you’re evidently a fairly coarse individual who would probably be oblivious to the finer points of many disciplines.
Don’t put others down and make disparaging remarks about those who strive for near-perfect results just because you don’t know any different.
Pot, kettle, black, come to mind. Eh Rorty?
Makes I larrf it do!!!
Now back to oblivion and sanity.
Pat - I'll avoid all the muck flying around and say that I cant see anything wrong with doing what you're doing .
Ive just bought some GTS bones but then I found that my chassis isnt actually book and the wishbone mounts are approx 10mm wider apart than book, so
Im doing similar and converting to rod ends although on all 4 joints rather than just two.
Sorry Bob C but if I remember correctly when applied to cortina uprights 1mm = about .25 degrees so rose joints are fine as far as adjustments are
concerned.
Mick
Rorty me old duck,
If you can get within 1 to 2 mm over the length of a chassis then you should be a very rich bloke. and have every single F1 team banging on your door
because even they can't do it with all those boffs and fat wallets.
As for me being a knob?.......thought everyone knew that
<<Sorry Bob C but if I remember correctly when applied to cortina uprights 1mm = about .25 degrees so rose joints are fine as far as adjustments
are concerned.
Mick>>
Doh - I'm going to have to work it out now - that was why I did my susp. joints the way I did. vertical separation at chassis ~200mm, pitch
1.25mm so arcsin(0.625/200)=0.18degrees
so you can get within 0.1 degrees of your required setting - accurate enough for most I reckon!
Bob
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisGamlin
Pat - I'll avoid all the muck flying around and say that I cant see anything wrong with doing what you're doing
Ive just bought some GTS bones but then I found that my chassis isnt actually book and the wishbone mounts are approx 10mm wider apart than book, so Im doing similar and converting to rod ends although on all 4 joints rather than just two.
Hi Rorty,
I can see where you were coming from and why and I hope you can see that as I have the rose joints and threaded inserts, why it would have been the
easiest answer for me.
If I were to do all four lower mountings with rose joints, would this make everyone happier, even though it seems like a drastic solution to the
original problem - but would look good and different though.
Pat...
quote:
Originally posted by Avoneer
Hi Rorty,
I can see where you were coming from and why and I hope you can see that as I have the rose joints and threaded inserts, why it would have been the easiest answer for me.
If I were to do all four lower mountings with rose joints, would this make everyone happier, even though it seems like a drastic solution to the original problem - but would look good and different though.
Pat...
I was looking into the issue of using a vertical vs. horizontal bolt for rod ends on wishbones, so I did a number of image searches on Google for
pictures. I only found ONE picture of a car (an F1 racer) with vertical bolts. I know it's the best way, but there sure are a helluva lot of
cars running around with horizontal bolts. Just an observation.
Re: Pat's problem, I don't see any particular harm in using a bushing on one side and a rose joint on the other so long as neither is unduly
loaded. One benefit (beside moving on for the present) would be a partial reduction in noise and vibration. He can always put new bones on the To
Do list.
Pete
quote:
Originally posted by pbura
I was looking into the issue of using a vertical vs. horizontal bolt for rod ends on wishbones, so I did a number of image searches on Google for pictures. I only found ONE picture of a car (an F1 racer) with vertical bolts. I know it's the best way, but there sure are a helluva lot of cars running around with horizontal bolts.
Pete
On my first suspension mock up I put bolts vertically through rodends. Could not get any thing like enough travel
Cheers
Fred WB
Hi Rorty,
I agree with what you are saying but the way I read it was that one eye on Pat's wishbone was wonky, not the wishbone itself? By chopping off the
eye to put on a rose joint he's getting rid of the offending part by default so what's left is a sound wishbone assuming he welds on the rod
end sleeve properly.
If its the actual wishbone that is wonky then yep I agree, change it and don't use the rod end to dial out an inherent misalignment in the
wishbone.
Chris
Hi,
Chris is spot on.
One arm of the bone has just been welded slightly too high and off centre on the eye - as per this pic.
It's only a few mm but enough to slightly concern me.
Pat...
Rescued attachment Bone eye.JPG
quote:
Originally posted by Avoneer
Hi,
Chris is spot on.
One arm of the bone has just been welded slightly too high and off centre on the eye - as per this pic.
It's only a few mm but enough to slightly concern me.
Pat...