Due to the scarcity of the venerable Cortina uprights, I came up with these Cortina upright designs for an old mid-engine project, simply because I couldn't be bothered redesigning the wishbones to suit more recent uprights.
I've made and used both types in the past though based on VW uprights and not Cortina ones.
They're not really DIY in the same way the RHS uprights are, but if someone here has the facilities to laser, fold and machine the parts, I'll gladly supply the DXF files. Perhaps someone will stick their hand up and produce quantities for Locost members or whatever.
I'm sure they'd sell and would be more "Locost" than those horrid Sierra "uprights".

ROD END TYPE UPRIGHT
Rescued attachment Cort_upright_01.jpg

BALLJOINT TYPE UPRIGHT.
Rescued attachment Cort_upright_04.jpg

This is the general idea.
Rescued attachment Cort_upright_03.jpg

Cool idea mate....keep it coming.

nice one rorty, we are looking to make something as a cheaper alternative to raceleda that enables people to have a proper front end rather than the sierra setup

can find out costs etc if this is going to be locost based we have a company we use at the mo who are just down the road who laser and fold etc

best regards

marc

Marc,
Are you going to be at Exeter?

Cheers
Mark

hi mark
yep will be at exeter, are you there with ken ?

best regards

marc

Rorty, I've been away all week, my how things can change on the site !!
Will be in touch about the uprights soon

Jason

perhaps a dumb question, but is it possible to fabricate front uprights similar to the way frequently used for rear uprights ?

quote:

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Originally posted by marc n
nice one rorty, we are looking to make something as a cheaper alternative to raceleda that enables people to have a proper front end rather than the sierra setup

can find out costs etc if this is going to be locost based we have a company we use at the mo who are just down the road who laser and fold etc

best regards

marc

---

hi rorty

yep we could do, special deal on the locost builders forum to members, then some royalty for yourself, we did get half way through doing it about 6 months ago then had no time to finish, so would be any easy option, also have got a good deal on the raceleda alloy hubs discs etc to compliment them

best regards

marc

Marc, It's just gone 11:30 pm and my CAD puter is shut down, but I'll email you with the files tomorrow.

Marc, I'd certainly be interested in a cheaper alternative to a raceleda setup based on Rorty's design. What kind of price (ballpark) do you reckon you could produce these for? Also how much for your version of the hubs too?

Rorty, any chance when your CAD is back up (and you are too! ), you could make available a 3d model of both varieties to aid my own (and others) designs?

quote:

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Originally posted by JonBowden
perhaps a dumb question, but is it possible to fabricate front uprights similar to the way frequently used for rear uprights ?

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Rescued attachment Cort_upright_05.jpg

KEYED UPRIGHT (not Cortina)
Rescued attachment keyed_upright.jpg

quote:

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Originally posted by andyd
Rorty, any chance when your CAD is back up (and you are too! ), you could make available a 3d model of both varieties to aid my own (and others) designs?

---

Thanks to all those who contacted me about knocking out these uprights.
I think to be fair to everyone, and for the benefit of the Locost community at large, it would be best if a couple of industry entities produced the uprights as they already have either the machinery to produce them or have well established trade contacts to draw on.
Assembly and marketing is another area where the manufacturers will have an advantage over the keen amateur enthusiast.
To this end, I will be sending the CAD files to MNR Sportscars and Triton Sports Cars for them to evaluate. No doubt they'll let everyone know of any progress.
None of this should stop any individual having a go at copying this design of upright for themselves in the true Locost tradition!

quote:

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Originally posted by Rorty
as policy, I don't release non-contracted CAD models. Sorry.

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Rorty, Marc etc.

Forgive my ignorance but what is wrong with Sierra uprights?

I appreciate that they are basically the bottom part of a MacPerson strut adapted to accept an upper ball joint but what is wrong with this arrangement?

And why are Cortina uprights so superior?

they look better and i believe are a bit lighter

quote:

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Originally posted by fatfranky
Rorty, Marc etc.

Forgive my ignorance but what is wrong with Sierra uprights?

I appreciate that they are basically the bottom part of a MacPerson strut adapted to accept an upper ball joint but what is wrong with this arrangement?

And why are Cortina uprights so superior?

---

Does anyone know the weight of one of the Sierra uprights?
The original Cortina upright weighs 2.57 kg, my balljoint plate upright weighs 1.86 kg, the rod end plate upright 1.79 kg and the RHS upright weighs 1.74 kg.

Bah now I want to build new uprights. Although I have perfectly good refurbished cortina ones.

If I had a lathe and my friend with a laser at work hadn't quit his job..

.. then I'd never get the car finished

quote:

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Originally posted by flak monkey

quote:

---

Originally posted by fatfranky
Rorty, Marc etc.

Forgive my ignorance but what is wrong with Sierra uprights?

I appreciate that they are basically the bottom part of a MacPerson strut adapted to accept an upper ball joint but what is wrong with this arrangement?

And why are Cortina uprights so superior?

---

As Liam said, plus the geometry is also better suited to a double wishbone set up.

David

---

surely the scrub radius will depend on what offset wheels are used! You can't say one is better than the other without including the full package.

All I know is I would rather use something designed for a job than adapt something that wasn't.

I know the cortina upright wasn't designed for our application but it was a lot closer than the bottom of a McPherson leg!

quote:

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Originally posted by NS Dev

I know the cortina upright wasn't designed for our application but it was a lot closer than the bottom of a McPherson leg!

---

quote:

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Originally posted by James

I've been interested for ages in the suspension geometry/handling issues relating to changing wishbone lengths.

But what are the geometry implications of the longer wishbones but used with a Cortina upright? Clearly the likes of MK have lengthened their front w/bones but that's with a Sierra upright.

Any idea what happens if you mix the two designs? Ie. Sierra track w/bones but with Cortina uprights!

Cheers,
James

---

id be suprised if ron calculated it that accurately in the beginning anyway

hi rorty

got the files they are now at the laser cutters / machine shop should know in a couple of days the prices etc ,

have already had the stubs made to suit cortina so ok on that front

will keep you all up to date on the progress

best regards


marc

The geometry of the sierra upright is different AFAIK, hence why the top wishbone in sierra fronted cars are different. The offset is different for a start.

The cortina upright came off a car with double front wishbones, the sierra did not. hence the cortina was better designed for our purposes surely. If the sierra is OK its only luck.

David

quote:

---

Originally posted by James

quote:

---

Originally posted by flak monkey

quote:

---

Originally posted by fatfranky
Rorty, Marc etc.

Forgive my ignorance but what is wrong with Sierra uprights?

I appreciate that they are basically the bottom part of a MacPerson strut adapted to accept an upper ball joint but what is wrong with this arrangement?

And why are Cortina uprights so superior?

---

As Liam said, plus the geometry is also better suited to a double wishbone set up.

David

---

Clearly I know next to bugger-all about suspension design etc. but I had a long chat with Darren (GTS) and Peter from Raceline about the benefits of each and I was pretty sure that they felt that apart from the weight the Sierra was a better design in terms of geometry.
Amongst others the things I remember were the scrub radius was better with the Sierra and the position of the wheel relative to the bearings meant less strain on the wheel bearings.
Either way, it'd be good to get an accurate/comprehensive set of measurements of the Sierra upright to Rorty so he could do a Sierra version!

Cheers,
James

---

quote:

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Originally posted by flak monkey
The geometry of the sierra upright is different AFAIK, hence why the top wishbone in sierra fronted cars are different. The offset is different for a start.

David

---

with the offcentre mushrooms, you could increase KPI, but its often traded off as people change (or attempt to change!) castor.

Is more KPI desirable?

[Edited on 31/10/05 by JoelP]

The Sierra kpi is 13-13.5 degrees, due solely to the McPherson strut design and clearance issues.

The Cortina is similar to the Mk1&2 Granadas, at around 8+/-degrees, which is common with most suspensions of this type. eg. early Holdens, Falcons, USA Fords and Chevy's, ........

The front of a 911 is a real dogs dinner, with large amounts of kpi for the strut to clear in a small(ish) space, then large amounts of castor to offset that, and make the ultralight frontend steer.

I'm not sure what the uprights in the early 6's, then 7's were, but from the drawings I have there is minimal scrub, and low KPI and castor. Caterham and Lotus then went on to use the Triumph upright (or their own versions of it), which have similar geometry to the early examples.

Work it out for yourselves, I can't give a definitive answer. But, if you tried to use some of the geometries seen in 7 type cars, in much heavier cars, you'd have all sorts of handling problems. The Cortina hub/uprights is a good example. The wheel mount faces were outside of the rim edge, much like Austin 1100/1300's, just to keep some semblance of centrepoint steering. You then put low offset wheels on, and centre offset goes wildly high with steering kickback. But, the light car seems to forgive it, or at least not emphasize it.

Seems as though the very light weight forgives a multitude of design sins, which you would not find on a competently designed top end racecar.

Syd.





[Edited on 1/11/05 by Syd Bridge]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rorty
For a start, the Sierra upright's geometry should be exactly the same as the Cortina's, as that's what it's supposed to be emulating so it fits the Book wishbones! A bit more KPI would benefit it, though I'm not sure that's possible with the Sierra unit.

---

I am drooling over Rorty's upright design. It is such a pain that cars with suitable uprights are pretty much gone.

quote:

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Originally posted by NS Dev
surely the scrub radius will depend on what offset wheels are used! You can't say one is better than the other without including the full package.

---

Rescued attachment Uprt-Sierra-1.jpg

Cortina
Rescued attachment Uprt-Cortina-ScrubRadius.jpg

My figures are virtually identical to your findings Joao.
I suppose the next logical step I may look at would be to come up with not just a Cortina replacement upright, but a purpose designed light weight Locost upright and matching wishbones.
Would Marc, Mark (I sound like a dog with a hair lip) Brad or Chris be interested in such a set-up?

Cast ali uprights to fit front Sierra bearings and stubs, with Cortina balljoint geometry, are already available.

I saw them at STATUS quite a few years ago. They may have been for a manufacturer though.

Ring Manchester Uni and ask for STATUS and someone could sort you all out.

I drew some for the IP Sprite project in '96, and made a pattern for the castings, if I can ever find them in the shed. The geometry is for 13" wheels, custom discs and AP brakes, but needs little changing for Locosts. Looks like the time for a batch looks nigh.

Syd.

Ernesto Freitas (lusomotors.com) designed an upright + hubs to replace either the Cortina or Sierra ones.Image deleted by owner

Hi,
Been away from the forum for a few days, thanks Rorty for the files, in answer to your question "Would Marc, Mark (I sound like a dog with a hair lip) Brad or Chris be interested in such a set-up? ", yes, I think that might be an idea, I've thought a few times about something like that.

A few "requirements" I'd thought of would be
1) Cater for 'standard' book wishbones
2) Use book Transit & Maxi/Cortina ball joints
3) Use Sierra hubs and bearings
4) Removable/replaceable Caliper mounting plate
5) KPI of 7 or 8 degrees
6) Relatively easy to manufacture, using laser cutting/milling/turning/welding type of facilities rather than bending/forming.

I'm sure guys can add more to this list, maybe on here we can come up with a 'Locost' uprights and get away from being tied to Cortina, Sierra or expensive ali uprights.

Cheers

Brad

All your points are noted; however I would question the logic of making any further uprights to fit Book wishbones.
The uprights I posted above were simply intended as a substitute for the diminishing Cortina uprights.
If I were to design an easily made (read composite) upright specifically for the Locost, I think it would be taking a step backwards to base it around the Book 'bones with their inherent problems.
I feel if people are prepared to make uprights, then they're probably already prepared to make wishbones.
If there's enough interest in a full front end design, then I'm happy to knock one out. I have my outlaws coming to stay for Christmas AGAIN this year, so that would be an ideal opportunity for me to sneak away for a bit of peace and quiet.
I would like to see a bit more input from others who would be genuinely interested in such a set-up, firstly, so I can establish if it's even worth my while bothering and secondly, to ascertain what others think about Sierra hubs/bearings and which callipers to use etc.
Interchangeable calliper brackets could quite simply be retained by a bolt-in stub axle and located by keys on the opposite side of the upright.
Anyway, let's hear some dialogue first.
If it's not too presumptuous, I'll start a fresh thread "New Locost front end design."

Just a few questions:-

What size of RHS is the RHS upright made out of?

What thickness of steel is the laser cut and folded upright made of?

How are axles fitted into mass produced uprights? Can we copy this method as opposed to welding them in place?

Sorry to bombard you like this and I appreciate that some of the answers might be trade secrets like the CAD files but these will be essential to anyone trying to make your designs or help them make their own design.

quote:

---

Originally posted by cymtriks
Just a few questions:-

What size of RHS is the RHS upright made out of?

What thickness of steel is the laser cut and folded upright made of?

How are axles fitted into mass produced uprights? Can we copy this method as opposed to welding them in place?

Sorry to bombard you like this and I appreciate that some of the answers might be trade secrets like the CAD files but these will be essential to anyone trying to make your designs or help them make their own design.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cymtriks
....How are axles fitted into mass produced uprights? .....

---

first lot of pricing has been done on the components for the uprights, they are looking like they will be £110 per pair powder coated, this includes bolt on stub axles and various options on fittings ( i.e maxi balljoints, transit draglinks , rod end and pin assemblies, as we do ours at the moment )
awaiting final prices on machined components ( may be cheaper yet ) and also on alloy hubs to go with these

please let me know your thoughts,
i will be producing these for ourselves and would be more than happy to supply the components for self assembly also for all you hardcore locosters

price for the alloy hubs is going to be £75 per pair inc bearings and nuts etc

best regards

marc

[Edited on 17/11/05 by marc n]

Rorty.
Am I correct in my thinking that ADR's (Australian Design Rules) do NOT allow the use of composite/RHS/welded construction uprights?
I'm intending eventually to export my car from UK into Queensland so this is of concern to me.

The ADRs are an abomination. They vary from state to state and are difficult to keep abreast of. You can get almost anything through if you find a friendly acredited engineer. It would be dificult to get some half-arsed uprights through if they were all rusty and the welds looked like chicken poo, but if they appear to be professionally made, or even better, if you can present an invoice from the manufacturer, then I don't think you'd have any problems.
I'm not an authority on ADRs though, so I would contact a car club in the state of your intended destination and ask them who the best engineer is to speak to and what local regulations apply.
Perhaps the Aus Locost site could shed some light on it all for you.

Thanks Rorty.
I've been chatting to Syd Bridge who seems to know quite a lot about importing into Queensland.
Seems it may not be a problem as long as it's a "personal Import" as my own car and that I have owned it for a minimum of a year.
It then only has to comply with the Queensland Code of Practice for Light Vehicles:

Seat Belt Mounting ADR5/00
Seat Belts Adr4/00
Child Restraint Anchorages ADR3/00 5/00 (in a 7?)
Safety Glass ADR 8/00
Head Restraints ADR22/00

quote:

---

Originally posted by marc n
first lot of pricing has been done on the components for the uprights, they are looking like they will be £110 per pair powder coated, this includes bolt on stub axles and various options on fittings ( i.e maxi balljoints, transit draglinks , rod end and pin assemblies, as we do ours at the moment )
awaiting final prices on machined components ( may be cheaper yet ) and also on alloy hubs to go with these

please let me know your thoughts,
i will be producing these for ourselves and would be more than happy to supply the components for self assembly also for all you hardcore locosters

price for the alloy hubs is going to be £75 per pair inc bearings and nuts etc

best regards

marc

[Edited on 17/11/05 by marc n]

---

more to the point, who the hell does your powder coating!

They deserve a flipping medal!

it's the best quality I have seen, and yet the components are some of the cheapest. Some decent powder coaters would be asking a good chunk of your price just for their bit!!

To answer a question that Rorty had a while ago, sierra uprights suck. The hub and upright weigh about 13lbs and the orig caliper and rotor (disc) weigh about 23lbs (minus any mounting hardware).So, 36lbs+ of unsprung weight. The sierra KPI is also way too large.
Cheers, -sm



[Edited on 15/2/06 by scotmac]

I believe the Caterham uprights are based on Standard/Triumph uprights. (Standard as in the automobile brand). These are the same uprights recommended for use in specials in the book "Racing & Sports Car Chassis Design" by M. Costin and D. Phipps. Yes, its the Costin who's the Cos in Cosworth and who was formerly a designer at Lotus Engineering. http://www.amazon.com/Racing-Sports-Car-Chassis-Design/dp/0837602963
I was at a track day and observed a Locost next to 1980s vintage Caterhams. It's quite obvious that the Cortina uprights are MASSIVE compared to the Standard/Triumph units.

[Edited on 8/1/08 by scudracer]