Board logo

F1 German GP
Johneturbo - 24/7/11 at 03:56 PM

Just Wached the race Well done Hamilton/mclaren what a great overtake by Hamilton he made Alonso look ordinary!

Very odd to see Vettel look out of sorts, maybe to much pressure being at his home GP as champion!?

Mark Allanson - 24/7/11 at 04:15 PM

Just confirms that Vettel can drive fast but cannot race.

AndyW - 24/7/11 at 04:33 PM

Also proves that if Hamilton keeps his nerve he can win. Proves he doe not have to make silly moves. Well done Mclaren and well done lewis. Feel a bit sorry for JB tho'

PSpirine - 24/7/11 at 04:51 PM

Excellent drive by Hamilton, absolutely top job by him and the team! Overall a really good GP to watch as it turned out, some amazing close action.

I wouldn't be so premature as to say that Vettel can't race based on this one race.. Given that 4th is a bad finish for him, it's saying something.

Mark Allanson - 24/7/11 at 05:34 PM

I based my assumption the Vettel cannot race on him winning when he is out on his own, but fouls up whenever he is troubled by other cars. The best example was him jumping into the crowd when Button was breathing down his neck in Canada.

britishtrident - 24/7/11 at 06:08 PM

Alonso also drove a very perfect race, the body language between him and Lewis after the race was err interesting, but in a car Alonso is probably the most complete all round package in F1. With drivers so evenly matched it probably came down to Ferrari only being 99.99999% as good as the MacLaren and the McLaren Team on the day.

Felt sorry for Webber though he is due for a win.

Johneturbo - 24/7/11 at 06:19 PM

I think the Ferrari is a better car that the Mclaren, i think the difference was Lewis, when you look how far away JB was in qually and in the first part of the race. Massa nearly got 4th so it's not a bad car!

norfolkluego - 24/7/11 at 07:10 PM

quote:
Originally posted by AndyW
Also proves that if Hamilton keeps his nerve he can win. Proves he doe not have to make silly moves. Well done Mclaren and well done lewis. Feel a bit sorry for JB tho'


Don't think there's anything wrong with his nerve, probably needs a bit more patience sometimes but I wouldn't want to see him curb that natural instinct to always go for it

eddie99 - 24/7/11 at 08:46 PM

As above, i think both ferrari and red bull have better cars than mclaren, but Hamilton pulled it off like he can! So all credits to him!

craig1410 - 24/7/11 at 10:01 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Johneturbo
what a great overtake by Hamilton he made Alonso look ordinary!


Nothing ordinary about Alonso - without doubt the most respected driver on the grid and he's scored more points in the last 3 races than anyone! This was just a race where the conditions played into McLaren's hands due to the low temperatures, plain and simple. Alonso was genuinely surprised to finish 2nd given the challenges the low temperatures presented for them. Hamilton's overtake was nothing special in my opinion, you often see cars which are straight out of the pits getting overtaken by a car who's tyres are up to full racing temps. Webber would have had Hamilton too had it not been for the fact that Hamilton would rather crash than let him past. Some people will admire that type of driving but the smarter driver (ie. Alonso/Button) will stay calm and wait for the opportunity to come back to him as it did in Silverstone. Also, how on earth did Alonso get in front of Hamilton at the pit stop in the first place? The undercut should have favoured Hamilton who stopped first so he must have made a hash of his out lap to let Alonso get in front...

Clearly Alonso must have been in fuel saving mode in the last stint too although I note that he didn't criticise the team or use it as an excuse! Something Hamilton could perhaps learn from...

Someone above mentioned something about body language between ALO and HAM. I must have missed that but I did notice that Alonso gave Hamilton a friendly wave as he passed on the slow-down lap? They also seemed to be quite happy to chat with each other after the race. It seems that these guys have got over 2007 (which was mainly Ron's fault anyway) so maybe we should too and just enjoy the racing. That's what F1 is mainly about after all.

A pretty decent race, looking forward to warmer temps at the next race! Hopefully Vettel will have a couple of DNF's to make things more interesting. He was pretty scrappy today to say the least and did nothing to disprove that he is a front-runner only with little race craft.

Craig.

norfolkluego - 25/7/11 at 12:24 AM

Sorry Craig, I've defended your position supporting Alonso in the past but that's tripe, nowt wrong with Hamilton defending against Webber, Webber didn't seem to have a problem with it and to say it was just down to the weather demeans all the drivers out there. The McLaren isn't the best car out there even if the weather favoured them more than some if the other teams, Hamilton drove the nuts off it all weekend and a 'smart' driver like Button was way off Hamiltons pace all weekend, same weather, same car. Support your man by all means but don't rubbish Hamilton just because your guy lost, it was a great drive from him today.
and
'Alonso was genuinely surprised to finish 2nd given the challenges the low temperatures presented for them'
Really!!, Massa, a guy who has shown no form for quite some time was fourth and keeping Vettel at bay up to the penultimate lap, I don't think the conditions were too bad for Ferrari.


[Edited on 25/7/11 by norfolkluego]

craig1410 - 25/7/11 at 12:37 AM

quote:
Originally posted by norfolkluego
Sorry Craig, I've defended your position supporting Alonso in the past but that's tripe, nowt wrong with Hamilton defending against Webber, Webber didn't seem to have a problem with it and to say it was just down to the weather demeans all the drivers out there. The McLaren isn't the best car out there even if the weather favoured them more than some if the other teams, Hamilton drove the nuts off it all weekend and a 'smart' driver like Button was way off Hamiltons pace all weekend, same weather, same car. Support your man by all means but don't rubbish Hamilton just because your guy lost, it was a great drive from him today.


I didn't say that there was a problem with the way Hamilton pushed Webber off the track, he was just taking his line. But Webber had to be smart and back off to avoid a collision. However, if you look at the Hamilton on Alonso overtake, the speed difference between Hamilton and Alonso was greater and he was farther alongside and the Hamilton approach to pushing wide wasn't available to Alonso. Also, he was having enough trouble keeping the back end of the Ferrari from getting away from him at the time due to the tyres being cold. Alonso showed at Silverstone that he can stay calm and play the long game, something that Hamilton has yet to learn. It nearly paid off for Alonso too but he had a bad in-lap before switching to medium tyres, I believe at least partly due to traffic.

As for the cold weather, I don't know how that demeans anyone. Have you followed any of the races this year? Ferrari struggle to get heat in their tyres. Period. This helps them at hot races but hinders at cold races. McLaren tend to get too much heat at hot races but are in better shape at cold races. Nothing demeaning in stating the facts as reported by the pundits and team bosses... You even said it yourself, "...the weather favoured them more than some if the other teams..."

Hamilton drove a good race and for once his all-or-nothing approach paid off. However, all too often the smarter approach, or 'calmer' as Alonso puts it, of his rivals has been shown to be a safer bet.


[Edited on 25/7/2011 by craig1410]

norfolkluego - 25/7/11 at 12:45 AM

I edited my original post but you'd replied already so I'll say it again


'Alonso was genuinely surprised to finish 2nd given the challenges the low temperatures presented for them'
Really!!, Massa, a guy who has shown no form for quite some time was fourth and keeping Vettel at bay up to the penultimate lap, I don't think the conditions were too bad for Ferrari.

Have a pop at Hamilton when he gets it wrong but be gracious enough to acknowledge when he gets he gets it right, today (er.. yesterday) was a superb drive from Hamilton in what frankly is a poorer car than a team like McLaren should have at this part of the season given their resources.

craig1410 - 25/7/11 at 12:56 AM

quote:
Originally posted by norfolkluego
I edited my original post but you'd replied already so I'll say it again


'Alonso was genuinely surprised to finish 2nd given the challenges the low temperatures presented for them'
Really!!, Massa, a guy who has shown no form for quite some time was fourth and keeping Vettel at bay up to the penultimate lap, I don't think the conditions were too bad for Ferrari.

Have a pop at Hamilton when he gets it wrong but be gracious enough to acknowledge when he gets he gets it right, today (er.. yesterday) was a superb drive from Hamilton in what frankly is a poorer car than a team like McLaren should have at this part of the season given their resources.


Massa may have been fourth but he was 52 seconds behind Hamilton at the end where Alonso was less than 4 seconds behind even though he didn't have enough fuel to get back to the pits. McLaren had the fastest car today in those conditions and that's not just my opinion.

As I said, Hamilton did well today by not making any mistakes but they did have a better car than either Redbull or Ferrari in these conditions. Red Bull had poor top speed as shown when Hamilton managed to retake Webber on the main straight and as shown by the fact Vettel couldn't get past Massa despite being clearly faster. Ferrari had good speed in the 2nd half of a stint (as I already said) and good top speed on the straight (Alonso vs Webber) but McLaren were better in the first half of the stint and on the medium tyres.

craig1410 - 25/7/11 at 09:18 AM

Here's a good analysis from James Allen on the comparative car performances:

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/07/which-f1-car-is-quickest-now-leading-drivers-try-to-work-it-out/

quote:

Red Bull is the more consistent car across the different kinds of tracks and different weather conditions, whereas the McLaren works better than the Ferrari in chilly conditions and vice versa. Part of this is getting the front tyres warmed up quickly in qualifying and straight after a pit stop, something which the Ferrari doesn’t do as well. This was decisive yesterday in Hamilton’s battle with Alonso, as the Spaniard admitted,
“One thing that we maybe missed this weekend,” said Alonso, “In the pit stops, when we were very close to overtaking them, especially the second pit stop when I was first in the first corner and I lost the position in the second and in one lap I think I lost two seconds so the warm-up on the out lap was very, very bad, so that’s something that we need to keep working on.”


One thing I'm sure we can all agree on - if Vettel keeps losing chunks of points like he did yesterday then it's going to get mighty interesting come the end of the season...

norfolkluego - 25/7/11 at 10:25 PM

1. I'm not staying up to that time of the morning arguing with you(edit ... again), you b*gger
2. Red Bull early season dominance is something we've not seen since the Schumy/Ferrari years, but to be honest that's the fault of McLaren and Ferrari for not producing a car that's good enough until mid season (for a couple of seasons in a row). Nothing against him but a run of 4 or 5 races with some unlucky DNFs for Vettel would work wonders and set up a nice 4 way fight for the title again

[Edited on 25/7/11 by norfolkluego]

craig1410 - 25/7/11 at 11:05 PM



I think Adrian Newey deserves a mention here. Any time the rules change, he is the man to have around to exploit any grey areas in the rules to maximum advantage. I think Vettel and Webber are also pretty good at playing their part in car development.

McLaren are in a bit of a lull on the technical side and seem to have a very sensitive car. Martin Brundle is often surprised at how stiffly sprung it is which isn't always a good sign. Ferrari have obviously made big changes in the last few months which seem to be bearing fruit very recently. On paper Also Costa seemed to be a very capable guy but I suppose if he was on the wrong tack or simply ran out of ideas then perhaps it was time for fresh thinking. I know Alonso has always demanded a car which was driver friendly to maximise his own performance and maybe Costa wasn't prepared to oblige. Who knows...I'm only guessing.

Yes, nothing against Vettel but I hope he does have a run of bad luck for a few races. The last thing most fans want is for the title to be wrapped up with 6 races to go or something, especially after the dramas of recent years.

Time for an early night so if you want the last word then now's your chance...

v8kid - 26/7/11 at 04:29 AM

And another thing could Red Bull from their position of strength be diverting resources to next year's car?
They have a comfortable cushion and the others are so concentrating on now that RB could be setting themselves up for another flying start to next season. I'll bet 10p at even money
Cheers!

LBMEFM - 26/7/11 at 04:38 AM

I think Vettel is a natural driver and will continue to improve and will become a legend in F1. Hamilton has reached his ability level and will be just be another F1 driver sucked up by the McClaren circus.

norfolkluego - 26/7/11 at 01:07 PM

Think the jury is still out on Vettel as a racer, he doesn't look anywhere near as good if he's not on the front row. You know Alonso and Hamilton can do that (and yes I know they can sometimes get it wrong but we've seen them do it often enough to know they can), so can Button when he's in the mood, can Vettel, plenty of people questioning that, personally I can only remember him doing in once, in the rain for Torro Rosso. If he can only win from the front in the best car (which he is very good at, he doesn't make many mistakes in that position to be fair) not sure he's ready for legend status yet.

[Edited on 26/7/11 by norfolkluego]

Johneturbo - 26/7/11 at 02:15 PM

quote:
Originally posted by LBMEFM
I think Vettel is a natural driver and will continue to improve and will become a legend in F1. Hamilton has reached his ability level and will be just be another F1 driver sucked up by the McClaren circus.


Hamiltons ability is way above Vettels. if either of them are to be legends my money would be on Hamilton for his pure racing abilty....

i'd also like to see Vettal have a couple of DNF's just to close up the championship.

mrwibble - 26/7/11 at 03:09 PM

was a good race, nice move by hamilton, perhaps hes a bit of a whiner sometimes, but senna was a right c*ck and we all think he was a god. i don't think anyone can write vettel off after only building a 80odd point lead and nearly bagging his 2nd championship running. like any sport, momentum has a huge part to play.

craig1410 - 26/7/11 at 03:16 PM

quote:
Originally posted by LBMEFM
I think Vettel is a natural driver and will continue to improve and will become a legend in F1. Hamilton has reached his ability level and will be just be another F1 driver sucked up by the McClaren circus.


I agree with NorfolkLuego, the jury is very much still out on whether Vettel can become a real racer like some of his rivals. Even David Coulthard, who is usually accused of being too Red Bull friendly, had to admit that the jury is still out when asked about this point live on BBC.

Here is how I see what most would regard as the top three:

1. Alonso:
Pros - Very strong team leader, charismatic and highly intelligent. Works very hard on and off the track and is media friendly and shows the same passion as Ferrari themselves about the brand. Has had experience in both good and bad cars. Worked his way up from the tail end of the grid. Relentless racer who will fight until the last lap. Capable of getting solid points in a poor car and is difficult to beat in a good car.

Cons - Difficult to shake off the unpopularity he received in 2007. Sometimes a bit prickly when things aren't going well. Damaged his reputation in 2007 with spy gate but I suspect that the full truth is locked up in a non-disclosure agreement with McLaren so we may yet learn more about this in time.

2. Hamilton:
Pros - Very strong racer with sound overtaking skills. Works hard on the track. Represents a different demographic than either Alonso or Vettel in more ways than just his skin colour.

Cons - Lacks maturity and is prone to criticise his team and can be very whiny on the radio at times. "Gansta-rappa" persona limits his appeal to many potential fans. Media skills a bit erratic - sometimes good, sometimes disastrous! Seems unwilling to work off the track and has stated that he wants a reduction in publicity work. Has never worked for a smaller team and hasn't really had to fight to get a good car.

3. Vettel:
Pros - Excellent front-runner with exceptional qualifying skills. Charismatic and intelligent. Works hard on and off track. Very friendly media demeanour but also a tough, driven professional quality. Has the makings of a strong team leader with a few more years behind him. Came up from a mid-field car on merit. Good media skills - comes across as someone you could have a beer and chat with.

Cons - Questionable racing ability when not at the front. Makes mistakes when rattled. (Can't think if too many other cons at the moment to be honest)

Hopefully the above will come across as an honest comparison albeit perhaps tainted slightly by my own opinions of these drivers. I have tried to be balanced though.

By the way, when assessing potential "Legend" status, try to imagine a driver stepping into Senna's shoes and carrying it off. Schumacher and Alonso are the only ones on the grid today who I think have the gravitas or presence to pull it off. Hakkinen, Villeneuve and Montoya were up there too albeit under different circumstances. Hamilton and Vettel for me are still to achieve this status.

Cheers,
Craig.

[Edited on 26/7/2011 by craig1410]

[Edited on 26/7/2011 by craig1410]

norfolkluego - 26/7/11 at 05:24 PM

quote:
Originally posted by craig1410
quote:
Originally posted by LBMEFM
I think Vettel is a natural driver and will continue to improve and will become a legend in F1. Hamilton has reached his ability level and will be just be another F1 driver sucked up by the McClaren circus.




and hasn't really had to fight to get a good car.





[Edited on 26/7/2011 by craig1410]

[Edited on 26/7/2011 by craig1410]



To be honest I think McLaren have tried very hard at the start of the last two seasons to give him the experience of driving a car that's not one of the front runners !

On a more serious note, this 'never had to race a poor car' is often raised as a negative against Hamilton and for the life of me I've no idea why. There's no rule that says you have to do that, there's no unwritten convention that says that's what should happen. Look at it another way when was the last time a driver came into F1 with a CV like Hamiltons, his record in the junior formulae was spectacular and improved the further up the ladder he went. I first noticed him in Euro F3 when he frankly obliterated everyone, finished first 16 out of 20 races, then stepped up to GP2 and won it at the first attempt. To be honest in his none F1 career he never showed any signs of needing much time to bed in. I assume McLaren felt the same way and thought he was ready and to be honest his performances in that first year do nothing to disprove that.

PS yes I know he was disqualified from one F3 race so the record books say 15/20



[Edited on 26/7/11 by norfolkluego]