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vw scandal
Daf - 22/9/15 at 01:33 PM

I assume we've all seen the news! Do you think if I asked vw nicely they'd help me find some 'solutions' to my iva test!?

austin man - 22/9/15 at 01:46 PM

wow

Dick Axtell - 22/9/15 at 01:49 PM

I don't wish to offend anyone, but do you really think you could afford the VW software for this purpose??

britishtrident - 22/9/15 at 03:12 PM

I have a suspicion other manufacturers will also be in trouble for the same thing.

The myth that diesels produce less pollution than spark ignition engines has been truly busted when taken together with higher maintenance costs and reduced reliability because of particulate filters and the projected shortfall in DERV production the writing may on the wall for the sales of new diesel cars in the huge numbers seen in the last few years.

David Jenkins - 22/9/15 at 03:28 PM

quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
I have a suspicion other manufacturers will also be in trouble for the same thing.

.


I've heard Mercedes and BMW are being looked at - but I can't remember where I saw this.

When you think of all the diesel cars made by all the companies owned by VAG, Mercedes and BMW...

Stot - 22/9/15 at 03:28 PM

I could imagine HMRC making claims on thousands of drivers who were underpaying tax on their company cars all this time and underpaying road tax based on the false emissions values. I wonder if they would go straight for VW or if the drivers would be presented with a bill and need to sue VW.

David Jenkins - 22/9/15 at 03:32 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Stot
I could imagine HMRC making claims on thousands of drivers who were underpaying tax on their company cars all this time and underpaying road tax based on the false emissions values. I wonder if they would go straight for VW or if the drivers would be presented with a bill and need to sue VW.


My guess is that all the European countries that base their road tax on emissions will sue the companies for lost revenue.

ian locostzx9rc2 - 22/9/15 at 03:37 PM

I agree I bet there not the only car manufacturer to do this could a massive scandal ..

britishtrident - 22/9/15 at 04:09 PM

Angela Merkel will make the Greek government pay for the cost.

britishtrident - 22/9/15 at 04:17 PM

quote:
Originally posted by David Jenkins
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
I have a suspicion other manufacturers will also be in trouble for the same thing.

.


I've heard Mercedes and BMW are being looked at - but I can't remember where I saw this.

When you think of all the diesel cars made by all the companies owned by VAG, Mercedes and BMW...


I wonder if the Yanks checked cars from US manufacturers quite as closely.

SteveWallace - 22/9/15 at 04:25 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Stot
I could imagine HMRC making claims on thousands of drivers who were underpaying tax on their company cars all this time and underpaying road tax based on the false emissions values. I wonder if they would go straight for VW or if the drivers would be presented with a bill and need to sue VW.


My understanding is that the issue is mostly with nitrogen oxides and particulates rather than carbon dioxide emissions, which is what road tax in the UK is based on.

The problem that we have is that our emissions based taxes were set up only to try to achieve greenhouse gas emissions targets rather than deal with more local environmental impacts caused by NOx and particulates, which can be a particular issue with diesel engines. That said, EU standards for engine manufacture (rather than personal taxes) have been gradually tightening a range of emissions standards for a number of years and manufacturers have been responding with what we had all thought were better and better engines.

Maybe its time that vehicle excise duty is changed to a sliding scale based on a basket of emissions rather than just carbon dioxide. However, that would really mess with company vehicle fleet decisions as they have been biased towards low carbon dioxide per mile diesel cars for years.

Ivan - 22/9/15 at 04:44 PM

They must really be between a rock and a hard place on this one - I would guess that the Emmission test Program leads to bad drive-ability, performance and maybe even consumption, hence the need for a "Test" and "Drive" program.

If they are forced to run only on the "test" settings will the current owners who might be unhappy with the changes in their car be entitled to a refund?

sdh2903 - 22/9/15 at 04:53 PM

quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
quote:
Originally posted by David Jenkins
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
I have a suspicion other manufacturers will also be in trouble for the same thing.

.


I've heard Mercedes and BMW are being looked at - but I can't remember where I saw this.

When you think of all the diesel cars made by all the companies owned by VAG, Mercedes and BMW...


I wonder if the Yanks checked cars from US manufacturers quite as closely.


You don't see many us made diesels on the road in the states. In fact you don't see many at all and the ones that you do see seem to be made in Germany.......

mac1ZR - 22/9/15 at 05:46 PM

They should also be brought to task about their fuel consumption figures. My Golf GTD struggles to achieve 50mpg, and they say the figure is 64mpg. I am sure VW aren't alone in this either.

David Jenkins - 22/9/15 at 05:54 PM

There's more info on VW's little bit of mischief here: NY Times

Look for the link part-way down - it shows what VW were doing, in layman's terms.

twybrow - 22/9/15 at 06:39 PM

Very naughty, and i am sure they are not alone. I am told this cant have happened in the EU as the testing is done on sample cars rather than those prepared by the oem. Either way, it is very worrying and will surely have repercussions globally....?

Adamirish - 22/9/15 at 06:39 PM




perksy - 22/9/15 at 08:01 PM

How did this all come to light ?

Did somebody whistleblow or ?


Very much doubt VW will be alone in this....

Mr Whippy - 23/9/15 at 11:35 AM

mass panic to sell diesel cars as their value plummets

Smokey bloody things anyway, hate being behind one and seen loads of nearly new cars pouring out black smoke as soon as they accelerate.

DW100 - 23/9/15 at 11:56 AM

quote:

I don't wish to offend anyone, but do you really think you could afford the VW software for this purpose??


The software wouldn't be that hard to implement. Lots of ways to tell the car is being tested on a rolling road, like rear wheels not going round, lack of change from steering wheel angle sensor and lack of vehicle movement from G sensors in ESP system, then switch to a low emmisions map.

The vehicles use a NOx storage catalyst that needs the engine to periodically run rich in order to re-generate, NOx is also lower when the mixture is richer and when using a greater amount of EGR to lower combustion temps. Can be done but the car would be crap to drive and poor on fuel economy.

ash_hammond - 23/9/15 at 12:05 PM

quote:
Originally posted by mac1ZR
They should also be brought to task about their fuel consumption figures. My Golf GTD struggles to achieve 50mpg, and they say the figure is 64mpg. I am sure VW aren't alone in this either.


Do you still have lead in your right foot? :-)

swanny - 23/9/15 at 02:22 PM

quote:
Originally posted by DW100
quote:

I don't wish to offend anyone, but do you really think you could afford the VW software for this purpose??


The software wouldn't be that hard to implement. Lots of ways to tell the car is being tested on a rolling road, like rear wheels not going round, lack of change from steering wheel angle sensor and lack of vehicle movement from G sensors in ESP system, then switch to a low emmisions map.



yes there are some fairly unique sets of data inputs that would suggest a car on test. does the MOT test this for diesels? nothing to stop the car from being able to work out it was MOT time again. (as you say; revs 3,000 g movement zero, steering input zero, gear selection neutral in theory the car might even know where the MOT centres were geographically too)

paul

Mr Whippy - 23/9/15 at 02:26 PM

It’s well known modern car mpg figures are pure fiction and don’t match real world driving.

Tbh the focus has been wrong and only on lowering emissions rather than reducing engine size requirements for cars, hence in the states they still drive enormous trucks with engine sizes equivalent to several European cars combined with dreadful aerodynamics, but that least their emissions are low…

[Edited on 23/9/15 by Mr Whippy]

coozer - 23/9/15 at 02:45 PM

I still think my 75mpg 1.5D 106 was a brilliant car. No electronics or fancy exhaust just 59 bhp. Bliss...

coozer - 23/9/15 at 02:48 PM

And I wonder when I can pick up a nearly new vw for about £500?

iank - 23/9/15 at 02:59 PM

quote:
Originally posted by twybrow
Very naughty, and i am sure they are not alone. I am told this cant have happened in the EU as the testing is done on sample cars rather than those prepared by the oem. Either way, it is very worrying and will surely have repercussions globally....?


In this case it makes no difference as all the cars have the inbuilt "cheating" code so any example has the potential to do the trick. As the testers are probably plugged into the car CAN bus the ECU will be able spot a tester from the messages it sends onto the bus, no need to even do any kind of analysis of how the car is being driven. Probably 10 lines of code all in.

The real problem for someone at VW is that the software for the ECU, being a safety critical component, will likely have been developed using ISO26262 software development processes, so in every line of code should be traceable from the person who wrote it, right back to the person who defined the requirement and entered it into the database.

Irony - 23/9/15 at 03:20 PM

I am a simple person and I just don't understand this. How have they cheated? Surely when you test a car for emissions you put it on a rolling road and stick a probe up the exhaust????? The article in the above link said the car 'knew' it was being tested. How did it know that? If the testing process including putting the cars ECU into some sort of testing or diagnostic mode then the people who examine the cars are fools. If I knew how to do this I would have CERTAINLY done this on my IVA.

If this is the case then I suspect that all manufacturers of diesel cars will have done the same. They wouldn't have been able to compete with VW if they didn't.

craig1410 - 23/9/15 at 03:37 PM

I think a lot of the blame should fall on the authorities.

Why? Because as with many things,

YOU GET WHAT YOU MEASURE!

It's just like managers who measure employee time at their desk rather than productivity, or governments who measure hospital waiting times instead of outcomes, or school league tables instead of real educational attainment. And of course, police who measure speed instead of driving standards.

Choose very carefully what you measure because that is what you will get and might not actually be what you want!

rusty nuts - 23/9/15 at 04:02 PM

If only everything in life was as reliable as a Volkswagen , who says the Germans don't have a sense of humour?

trextr7monkey - 23/9/15 at 04:22 PM

quote:
Originally posted by craig1410
I think a lot of the blame should fall on the authorities.

Why? Because as with many things,

YOU GET WHAT YOU MEASURE!

It's just like managers who measure employee time at their desk rather than productivity, or governments who measure hospital waiting times instead of outcomes, or school league tables instead of real educational attainment. And of course, police who measure speed instead of driving standards.

Choose very carefully what you measure because that is what you will get and might not actually be what you want!


Exactly! I was discussing this last night with my wife and it all seems to be back to give someone a hoop to jump through in any field of human activity and humans being humans they will do it, one way or another !

britishtrident - 23/9/15 at 04:31 PM

In the US a lot of the testing via the OBD II I/M Readiness Monitors.
Basically they depend on the cars ecu self-testing.

britishtrident - 23/9/15 at 04:37 PM

quote:
Originally posted by rusty nuts
If only everything in life was as reliable as a Volkswagen , who says the Germans don't have a sense of humour?


In words of Alan Price
"Everyone most go through changes"
"No one knows what's going on"

David Jenkins - 25/9/15 at 05:08 PM

Found this on Reddit yesterday...


nero1701 - 25/9/15 at 06:08 PM

there goes me getting an R32...wife is all green and hippy...this has blown it!