I have a striker 4age, its faultless and fast but im getting itchy feet for more speed. With no time or money the SC conversion is years away.

A friend has offered me a zx10r ex race engine with forged internals and work to give it 200hp for a very good price.

If i take all CEC stuff out and sell it to fund all the BEC stuff ill cut evens. With a 50hp hike in power and about 80kg less its going to be quicker.

If i had time i would jump on this but, I have very little time to do it so i am potentially going to rip to bits a reliable CEC to chase the BEC dream. With little time on my hands this could take my car off of the road for some time. . .

Please input!

[Edited on 25/2/16 by bi22le]

if you start now it should be ready by september...

use the cec for summer, then think about it.

I forgot to mention that he wants rid so is sticking it on ebay if i dont want it. He had it in his trackday bike but apparently it was a bit of a beast, revved like it was a turbo with lag, which is fine if your a very very fast rider. He is just a very fast rider!

Regarding the summer use. Its track day only, im doing brands this weekend and may not use it again untill after the summer due to money. Track day prices rocket after march

Obviously I don't know your car, but it seems a shame to pull apart a perfectly good CEC. Looking from outside, wouldn't it make more sense to sell up and start again with a BEC? And maybe upgrade it to your mates ZX10 motor if it needs it?

Remember to figure in a new diff. I am guessing your CeC is running a 3.62 or 3.92 (or shorter) if it is IRS or a 3.89 or 4.125 if it is live. BEC will need something a lot longer, 3.1ish. Otherwise it will top out at around 100mph. Also, are your brakes up to the extra power/speed ? You can quite easily get into a cost/effort spiral with upgrades and making sure that all elements are balanced.

By the time you've bought all those little bits needed to complete the conversion you will probably have spent enough to have bought a supercharger.... Seems daft to tear appart a working car

I agree.
Engine cradle,
Exhaust,
Dash/wiring/power commander/mapping
Rear diff swap
Sump mods and baffling,
Gear linkages.
All this on top of the zx10 motor itself which isn't really the Bec engine of choice (although no reason why not)! It'll cost thousands.
If you want a Bec I would sell up and buy one, or keep your own and compete in it in sprints or similar. It's a nice looking car and would be a shame to pull it apart

[Edited on 25/2/16 by daniel mason]

You see, this is why I'm an idiot and need LCB in my life. Keep your comments coming.

A few responses to the most recent, very well respected contributors.

The engine cradle, exhaust manifold, gear link and diff have been considered as costs.

I have an omex 710 to run the engine and it comes with a loom, mapping has been considered and costed.

It also comes with a baffled sump. I expect to fabricate and/our design bits myself.

I did buy a supercharger as a step up in power. That route requires intercooler, cometic head gasket, pulley, belts, remap and inlet plenum. This all cost money as well as time. BEC route is pretty much all time as i sell off a lot of bits.

I do think the changing something that works fine is an issue with me as it has been so faultless.

Any things feasible if your pockets are deep enough. I've got stuck into a couple of projects only to realise mine aren't!
So now i run the race car on a very modest budget.and love it

[Edited on 25/2/16 by daniel mason]

Youve already decided in your head that you want to go down the BEC route and are trying to get us to justify your decision.... its not working

6 speed sequential gearbox,clutch less up shifts, 10k+ RPM.........enough said

I tend to agree about not pulling apart a perfectly good car, also tend to think CEC in any case.

For BEC I would want to get the weight down so would tend to build a light car from the off, difficult if already built (yours may be already lightweight).

The one thing that would stop me at the moment is time, if you don't have enough it could be a job that never gets done. We how have young kids, finding 2hrs a week would be a luxury; so depends on your circumstances.. Why have you not supercharged the existing car, time or ££££ or something else?

Dan

Do it! You know you want to.

You'll have more power, better handling, quicker stopping and as you use it mainly as a track car the usual negatives don't apply (I'd argue they don't apply anyway). Only arguments against is spring is coming but you say that's off season for you anyway.

I had a similar situation, I had a working package but craved more power. I eventually had to scratch the itch. I'm 90% the way though the refit, I would say your biggest issue is time (turned out to be mine). If you have a working package stick with it as long as you can until you have the time and money to do exactly what you want.

This is what I did, even then I asked myself why when the car was given me issues. Several times I gave up and walked away.

Whilst I am a massive supporter of bike engines (tho' preferably in fairly standard trim, I'm never terribly convinced about tearing bike internals to bits & getting even more grunt out of what is already a fairly highly stressed unit) & think that Kawasaki make some of the very best, I'm also a strong supporter of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"

Over the years I've seen loads of people take to bits things that are perfectly good & usable, only for the remaining bits to sit untouched for years & then get sold years later for peanuts

If you truly yearn for BEC then use the car until this summer, sell up then when prices are high & buy a BEC project next winter when prices are at their lowest & a bargain may be had

What Daniel has said about all the extra bits/modifications you need is absolutely true & if you stop & think about it you can probably add loads more to the list, if you just want more power surely there are relatively cheap ways of achieving it with the 4AGE engine without going as far or as costly as super charging? 20 valve head perhaps?

You say the motor is a top-ender needing plenty of revs to get going making it a pig in a bike - this is going to be a problem in a car weighing twice what a bike does - it will be sluggish in town and only come into it's own when you are on track and can keep it on the boil - then it will be mega. It's for you to decide whether you want burning clutches and indifferent performance on the road and insane performance on track (The Bike engine) or fun on road and track (Your current setup).

I would much rather add a supercharger to my current setup - most probably less work and more usable.

if you go the Rotrex supercharger route (something like the C30-74) then I think you can get a decent amount of extra power without changing compression. Kit should be around £2k (plus RR remap) I would have thought if you are careful.

Jeffw can probably point you in the right direction on this.

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/9/viewthread.php?tid=96849

Thanks again for the replies.

The SC route would cost me money, about 1k as i already have a few parts and a good plan.

The ZX10 route should cost very little to nothing as i will gain back money from selling the CEC set up.

this is for track only use so off boil issues experienced on the road does not concern me.

i think that reassessing the situation after another track day of two is a good idea. Maybe my mate will hold onto it for a little longer

I would be very wary of an ex. race bike engine - my experience has been that they can be a bit short lived

A standard bike engine would be preferable however in your case I would stick to your CEC.

quote:

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Originally posted by bi22le

The ZX10 route should cost very little to nothing as i will gain back money from selling the CEC set up.

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Originally posted by Nickp

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Originally posted by bi22le

The ZX10 route should cost very little to nothing as i will gain back money from selling the CEC set up.

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Sounds a bit optimistic to me.

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Keep the 4age bike engines can get expensive - but fun .

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Originally posted by russbost

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Originally posted by Nickp

quote:

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Originally posted by bi22le

The ZX10 route should cost very little to nothing as i will gain back money from selling the CEC set up.

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Sounds a bit optimistic to me.

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Sounds mahoosively optimistic to me!!!

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If it was a standard engine I would say go for it. Being tuned, I would see that as a negative. WHEN it blows up(which it will, race bike engines are hugely stressed in a bike, never mind pulling an extra 300kgs). It will cost a fortune to put right. The usual bike engine blow up means throwing a rod(engine=scrap). I've been around race bikes long enough to see many grown men bought to tears when their £8000 engine has a new hole in the front of it.

Blow up a zetec or 4AGE then £500 will have you up and running again. To build a bike engine back to the same spec would cost many thousands.

The superbike boys only get a few rounds out of an engine before a rebuild. That's with it being prepared and maintained by the best in the business in a 180kg bike.

It would be fun though! For a while.

It wouldn't stop me doing it, I would just constantly be worried about that last 500rpm and whether or not I would have to sell everything I own to get it going again.

Bit of a long tale but might have relevance...

Having built my Fury with 06' R1 after a couple of years thrashing it a thought I'd see if I could pick up a spare. Just in case I broke it I'd have another ready to drop in. Malc at Yorkshire Engines put me on to a guy who sold track bikes and had an ex Virgin Yamaha BSB motor. Turned out he had 2; One full race motor (even the stator that only charged above 8000rpm so it didn't sap power at lower revs) and a second that had been mounted to a standard 'box, stator etc. I bought the second one for reasons of reliability.

Rather than stick it straight in I put it in a corner and set about trying to bust the original (if it ain't broke don't fix it as several have suggested in this thread). 2 years later I gave up trying and put the new motor in. Rolling road session (+20bhp at the wheels and +25% torque on Yamaha claimed figure) Track day at Blyton to try/fettle it before my annual Euro trip and it was a flying machine, 10mph faster down the back straight than before ...then it blew up. Det' had munched the head first day out Out it came and back went old faithfull for Europe but it wasn't the same as before; Well it was but just didn't feel like it now.

So, hooked on the power, I forked out for a new ( head and rebuild by the ex Virgin mech' who'd built it originally. A good chat with him identified the reason it blew and it went back in 3 years ago along with a better map and an oil cooler.

Been thrashed ever since, 2x3000mile Euro trips, numerous track days and whole load of bimbling about and it never misses a beat. Sure with the light crank/rods and full race cams it's a touch high strung but it's always fun.

Only thing I've regretted was not putting it straight in when I got it. Life isn't a rehearsal!

I am sure we have all been here. Its very simple don't waste untold amounts of money on a conversion. As has already been said if you want a bike engine sell your car and buy one where someone else has spent all the money.

Theres no need to question this logic its fact, so do one or the other.

there so the next post from you should be striker for sale!

My thoughts having been surrounded by nothing but bike engines for longer than I care to mention

1. I always advise fitting the bike engine that gives the power you want in nearest to its raw state - whilst there is always the odd exception, the path of tuned engines is littered with expensive tales of woe. Bike engines are highly tuned in stock format, we strain them further in the cars and tuned motors will inevitably be under even greater stress. If you want turnkey trouble free trackdaying - keep it stock. If you have a number of spare motors and are prepared to swap and rotate for regular rebuilds it isn't so much of an issue but most don't want that hassle.

2. If going the tuned route I had a rule when racing sidecars which proved itself time and time again - don't buy someone elses tuned engine - either build or commission one yourself - that way you know exact spec and what bits are in it - this makes rebuilds easier when you know exactly what was skimmed off the previous head, which gasket was selected etc.

3. in general engines tuned for superbike use are not the best power delivery for cars or sidecars - before I knew better I purchased a championship winning british superbike engine for my sidecar - loads of horsepower but it was very much a 10 -12 engine - it simply didn't have the low down grunt to pull from 8000 and mallory hairpin became a clutch slipping exercise at 10,000rpm just to keep it boiling - it wasn't long before we were back on our old motor and going faster.

4 If dead set on BEC - the ZX10r is not the natural choice - it breathes heavy at WOT and has a very high output shaft which can cause a few issues if not purpose building a chassis. It also makes good power but the delivery is quite agricultural - not brilliant for balanced throttle power slides etc. The only Sabre ever built with ZX10r spat 3 motors before the owner converted to blade - most motors went pop after it had systematically blown all its oil out and then rodded itself (these are issues seen much more on track than road where use of constant WOT is far less)

5 Bear in mind the baffles used for solos are a very different animal to those for cars/ sidecars. I will bet that you will need a proper billet sump to keep it in one piece on track driven hard along with some serious breather mods and even then a big catch tank.

That said if you go ahead and I can offer any advice or assistance please don't hesitate to give me a bell at the unit
Best regards
Andy