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Towing a trailer.
Sierra - 20/1/15 at 11:56 AM

I've done some research but still not 100% clear on the laws.
My car weighs 1443kg
Towing un braked 730kg
Towing braked 1200kg
Kit car weight 600kg
Driving licence past after 1997

Online I've found the following
If you passed your driving test after 1 January 1997 and have an ordinary category B (car) licence, you can:
drive a vehicle up to 3.5 tonnes or 3,500kg MAM towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM
tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the combined weight of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg

Now does this mean as long as the trailer weighs no more than 1400kg empty then I will be ok?
Or
Do you have to calculate the max weight that the trailer can handle to the weight of your car.
Trailer max weight loaded (1500kg) + weight of car towing (1443kg)
Still it's under 3500kg so should I be ok?

coozer - 20/1/15 at 12:25 PM

You have to factor in the maximum gross weight of the trailer. Don't matter what it weighs empty or how much you actually have on it, its the maximum weight that counts.

You need to check the cars maximum towing weight, and make sure your max trailer weight is under that. Then check your B bit of your licence to see what it allows.

For example if you get pulled by vosa and your running at the max for car, trailer and your licence they will drag you to a weigh bridge and check and look hard for something to get you on.

And don't forget the new speed limits and lane rules that apply as well.

edsco - 20/1/15 at 12:28 PM

Your 2nd option is correct...

Your trailer might be rated at 1500kg, but this is combined weight of both the trailer and what is carrying. So assuming you trailer weighs 600kg and the car 700kg = 1300kg thats fine.

The next thing to consider is the recommended towing capability of your car. If its the 1200kg quoted in your original post...strictly speaking, using my example above you shouldn't tow it as it exceeds the max of the trailer. However, car manufacturers do err on the side of caution and cut the quote towing weights down. Safety margin....and all that! I wouldn't recommend that excuse if you get pulled by the rozzers though!

The next thing to consider is the combined weight of your car and the combined weight of what you are towing. This combined figure should be no more than 3500kg. In your quoted example : 1443 car kg + trailer max 1500kg (assuing the trailer weight and what its carrying don't exceed 1500 kg), you should be fine!!

Simples

dhutch - 20/1/15 at 01:07 PM

Indeed, I think there was a small tweak for those who passed after 2003 as well which I presume wont apply, seems they have just added a step by step site guide, a be it not a great one... :

https://www.gov.uk/towing-rules

But it can just about be done, to my understanding. I tow a covered trailer with a westfield in it, plated at 1200kg and weighing almost exactly that, behind my BMW E36 compact, and also previously behind a 306 hatchback.

My trailer is a DIY build I obtained second hand, and I plated it to suit my needs using a plate bought from eBay, following what I head read online and the recomendation of the local police force. It was also suggested I could quite happily derate an off the shelf trailer if I so wished.


Daniel

Sierra - 20/1/15 at 02:38 PM

Thanks for the information.
So because my cars max tow is 1200kg does that mean I must get a trailer played max 1200kg and obviously make sure trailer plus car on it doesn't exceed 1200kg.
Or can I get a trailer plated say 1500kg but again make sure trailer and car on it doesn't exceed 1200kg, seeing as even though the trailer is max rated 1500kg this still sits within 3500kg.

ianhurley20 - 20/1/15 at 02:48 PM

A friend of mine was stopped a few months ago by a VOSA check. His tow car plus trailer plus the vehicle on the trailer came well within the cars max train weight. The trailer was capable of carrying much more and what they did was add the max permitted load of the trailer to that which his car could tow as the max train weight. This calculation took him over the limit so he was reported for being overweight and having no driving licence to cover that weight. He ended up with 3 points on his licence and his insurance renewal went through the roof for having driven without a licence.

I might not have explained this very well but VOSA took the max capabilities of car and trailer as the important weights not what they actually weighed on the road.

dhutch - 20/1/15 at 02:49 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Sierra
Thanks for the information.
So because my cars max tow is 1200kg does that mean I must get a trailer played max 1200kg and obviously make sure trailer plus car on it doesn't exceed 1200kg.
Or can I get a trailer plated say 1500kg but again make sure trailer and car on it doesn't exceed 1200kg, seeing as even though the trailer is max rated 1500kg this still sits within 3500kg.
Previously it clearly said it was the plated MAM of the trailer that was used, that this had to me less than the curb weight, and MAM of the trailer and Max Gross weight of the car had yo be under 3500kg but it s now less clear. I expect in practice either is fine, get a sway bar if it doesn't feel nice first time out, makes a big difference.

Given the above, for the sake of £3 get a plate off eBay and derate it!
Daniel

[Edited on 20/1/2015 by dhutch]

Sierra - 20/1/15 at 03:04 PM

So just to be safe I need to make sure the trailer had been plated at 1200kg that way it's fine for my cars max tow of 1200kg.
If I did go for a plated trailer of 1500kg although being within the 3500kg max total they will probably do me for having a trailer that can take more than my cars max tow.

coozer - 20/1/15 at 03:24 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Sierra
So just to be safe I need to make sure the trailer had been plated at 1200kg that way it's fine for my cars max tow of 1200kg.
If I did go for a plated trailer of 1500kg although being within the 3500kg max total they will probably do me for having a trailer that can take more than my cars max tow.


Thats right, trailer max rating needs to be less than the cars max towing. Anything over the max towing weight of the car means its dangerous and the vosa will take it off you and do you..

mcerd1 - 20/1/15 at 03:54 PM

Its worth mentioning that you can get a trailer replated to show a lower MAM

The only issue with this is that a trailer designed for say 1500kg will weight more than one deigned for 1200kg - which leaves you with less actual load capacity....

[Edited on 20/1/2015 by mcerd1]

onenastyviper - 20/1/15 at 05:14 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ianhurley20
A friend of mine was stopped a few months ago by a VOSA check. His tow car plus trailer plus the vehicle on the trailer came well within the cars max train weight. The trailer was capable of carrying much more and what they did was add the max permitted load of the trailer to that which his car could tow as the max train weight. This calculation took him over the limit so he was reported for being overweight and having no driving licence to cover that weight. He ended up with 3 points on his licence and his insurance renewal went through the roof for having driven without a licence.

I might not have explained this very well but VOSA took the max capabilities of car and trailer as the important weights not what they actually weighed on the road.


Did he have a newer B license (ie from about 1997)?

ianhurley20 - 20/1/15 at 05:25 PM

No he didn't! His trailer had a 3.5ton plate which took his train weight over the limit for his car -mine is a C4 and max it can tow is 1.4tons so I would be 2.1tons over towing that trailer - even though I only had a 500kg haynes Roadster on it which with the trailer ULW added would be 1 ton which would be within tolerances.

I've been looking for a 1.3 ton max trailer with ULW about 300kg ish since.

Hope I'm making sense :-)

gavin174 - 20/1/15 at 05:34 PM

easiest thing to do is save all weighbridges as POI's in your satnav..

if VOSA flash you and tell you to pull over, quickly "navigate to nearest POI... weighbridge"

you cannot be done on your way to a weighbridge!!!!

ianhurley20 - 20/1/15 at 05:48 PM

quote:
Originally posted by gavin174
easiest thing to do is save all weighbridges as POI's in your satnav..

if VOSA flash you and tell you to pull over, quickly "navigate to nearest POI... weighbridge"

you cannot be done on your way to a weighbridge!!!!


Now that something I'm going to do - except it will not get round the max weight of the trailer problem - will it?- good idea though, I'm going to try it if needs must!

daviep - 20/1/15 at 08:35 PM

Unless the recent changes affect older licenses then some of the pages on .gov are missing on some of the criteria for licenses obtained between 1st Jan 1997 and 19th Jan 2013.

If you obtained your license between 1997 and 2013 then: Cut and paste from .GOV HERE

You can tow trailers up to 750kg MAM (maximum authorised mass).

You can also tow larger trailers if: - the combined trailer and vehicle weight isn’t more than 3,500kg - the fully-loaded trailer weight isn’t more than the unladen vehicle weight

Regards
Davie

[Edited on 20/1/15 by daviep]

onenastyviper - 20/1/15 at 08:49 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ianhurley20
No he didn't! His trailer had a 3.5ton plate which took his train weight over the limit for his car -mine is a C4 and max it can tow is 1.4tons so I would be 2.1tons over towing that trailer - even though I only had a 500kg haynes Roadster on it which with the trailer ULW added would be 1 ton which would be within tolerances.

I've been looking for a 1.3 ton max trailer with ULW about 300kg ish since.

Hope I'm making sense :-)


I am not sure that makes sense - how can an offence have been committed if the laden weight of the trailer is within the train weight of the vehicle?

At the time of the test, it would have been correct - VOSA argument that the trailer "could" exceed the train weight does not make sense as it could require that every trailer sold be replated with the train weight of the tow vehicle.

This is possibly why the new(ish) regs commented about the total trailer weight not exceeding the kerbweight (or unladen weight) of the tow vehicle.

Of course, for the few hundred pounds, I would recommend upgrading your license entitlement to B+E.

For a trailer, Ifor Williams CT115 has a Gross Weight of 1400kg and a unladen weight of 350kg - single axle and only 2.1m wide - possibly worth a look?

Another would be a Brian James "Minnow" - I think it's called.

daniel mason - 20/1/15 at 09:49 PM

Minnow are plated at 1380kg I think!
To me it reads:
The total combined weight (not plated weights) must not exceed 3500kg
And that the trailer + load must not exceed vehicle curb weight!

How can an empty trailer weighing 500kg unladen but plated at 2000kg be worse that a fully loaded trailer weighing 500kg with a 1300kg car on it but plated at 1850kg? It doesn't make sense to me! And I would fall foul if this is he case !
My trailer with the force In it weighs around 1000kg but the trailers plated at 2000kg. My tow car weighs just over 2000kg

bi22le - 20/1/15 at 10:09 PM

quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
Minnow are plated at 1380kg I think!
To me it reads:
The total combined weight (not plated weights) must not exceed 3500kg
And that the trailer + load must not exceed vehicle curb weight!

How can an empty trailer weighing 500kg unladen but plated at 2000kg be worse that a fully loaded trailer weighing 500kg with a 1300kg car on it but plated at 1850kg? It doesn't make sense to me! And I would fall foul if this is he case !
My trailer with the force In it weighs around 1000kg but the trailers plated at 2000kg. My tow car weighs just over 2000kg


I did loads of research into this and unfortunatly there are several stories of people getting fined becasue the plated trailer "allows" them to tow more than they are leagally allowed to do.

I cant remember where I read it but one post inresponse to this problem was its like young people with only a type B cant be trusted to judge the weight of the payload and therefore the trailer needs to limit it. Stupid, I know.

I have had to abide by this. I have a plated 850KG caravan chassis thats been converted, its braked.

I agree with Davie P comments on this, its exactly what my research nearly 2 years ago concluded to. The only thing I would add is that 750KG is the maximum you can tow unbraked with any car IIRC. Thats why the 750Kg limit is significant.

[Edited on 20/1/15 by bi22le]

daniel mason - 20/1/15 at 10:13 PM

But surely if you get pulled and taken to a weigh bridge and are well under 3500kg there can't be an issue?
I've been towing for ages like this!

mcerd1 - 20/1/15 at 10:44 PM

quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
But surely if you get pulled and taken to a weigh bridge and are well under 3500kg there can't be an issue?
I've been towing for ages like this!

but there are several different rules you have to follow at the same time:

1 - the plated weights of the vehicle + trailer need to be within the limits of your licence.
this is regardless of the weight your towing they day they pull you over to check - legally this is jest the same as if you tried using a car licence to drive a 40 seat coach and told the police "its ok I only ever have 5 passengers at most"

so if you've got a post 97 licence then your quite limited on the size you can tow without going to do a trailer test.

2 - the next set of rules is all about the suitability of the trailer for the tow vehicle or the other way round.
so if your car is rated to tow 1200kg braked and 600kg unbraked then the MAM of the trailer can't exceed these limits - again this is on plated weights so no weigh bridges required....

3 - then finally there is the rules about overloading a trailer (or the car for that mater) this is the only bit where a weigh bridge comes in. they can also do you for unsecure loads etc. if its not tied down correctly. (i.e. all the same rules that HGV drivers need to follow)



quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
My trailer with the force In it weighs around 1000kg but the trailers plated at 2000kg. My tow car weighs just over 2000kg

is that your tow cars kerb weight or max allowable weight ? (either way its over 3.5t so not legal on a B licence)



[Edited on 20/1/2015 by mcerd1]

eddie99 - 20/1/15 at 11:02 PM

I've been stopped 2-3 times by VOSA Towing with an Alfa with a covered trailer.

As mentioned above, its irrelevant what you are carrying. The rules are MAM of Car + MAM trailer must be under 3500kg, MAM of trailer must be less than unladen weight of car.

I derated the trailer to 1300kg because the alfa unladen was 1350kg.

MAM of car is about 2000kg, MAM of trailer is 1300, so comes in under the 3.5ton threshold.

As long as your within that its fine. It makes having a big towcar like a land rover no use because its MAM is most of allowance on its own.

One of the times the VOSA man said 'You can't drive with a trailer, you don't have B&E), i responded with the above info and he said you've obviously looked into it, on your way.

[Edited on 20/1/15 by eddie99]

daniel mason - 20/1/15 at 11:11 PM

Looks like I might need yet another new tow car then

slingshot2000 - 20/1/15 at 11:30 PM

quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
Looks like I might need yet another new tow car then(


And rig them up like a two locomotive train ?

daniel mason - 20/1/15 at 11:43 PM

2 smart cars should do it

StrikerChris - 22/1/15 at 11:03 PM

Jumping on the bandwagon, my maestro weighs 1070kg and manufacturer says it can tow 1170kg. I can get my mini brian james trailer plated to 1000kg but I think id be pushing it.1100 would suit me better but not the car. To be honest I think im just going to take my test.ive been towing diggers behind landrovers for years but now vosa have finally realised, and I'm older and worry about the consequences of an accident even if its a farce, rather than find myself the wrong side of the line towing a lightweight empty trailer!

daniel mason - 23/1/15 at 08:16 AM

There's so many conflicting views though! I was told specifically that it was actual combined weights and not plated weights before I bought my tow car.
So I got a light ish covered trailer @600kg and a carbon tub race car @ under 300kg
Just so I could get a decent tow truck. Kia sorrento @circa 2050kg
All In and loaded I'm around 3250kg but it's so easy in the 4x4 you don't realise it's on the back!
I'll need a re think now

dhutch - 24/1/15 at 12:33 PM

quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
There's so many conflicting views though! I was told specifically that it ....

That's the issue.

The formal site giving advice over simplifies the information such that the detail is missing, and when you speak to people for advice, the answers vary and conflict, with mixed evidence of what is actually policed on the roadside.

I have yet to be stopped, which slightly surprises me given stories of people who have been stopped, but it does appear it is being policed, and not sure a case of 'only going to come to light is you have an accident' type afair.



Daniel

coozer - 24/1/15 at 12:48 PM

Easiest way to look at is.. The specced towing limit for your car, check the manufacturers data and make sure you check the exact model.

Then pick a trailer with a gross weight that his less than the permitted vehicles towing weight.

Then, make sure the combined gross weight for both is under 3.5t.

And, make sure the trailer fully loaded is less than the max gross weight of the trailer.

Example: My unit and trailer last night had an unlaiden weight of 15.1t. However its max gross weight is 38t. That means I cannot go through a 18t weight restriction even if I'm empty and only 15.1t!

This because the rules are set at the maximum weights.

dhutch - 24/1/15 at 12:56 PM

quote:
Originally posted by coozer
Easiest way to look at is.. The specced towing limit for your car, check the manufacturers data and make sure you check the exact model.

Then pick a trailer with a gross weight that his less than the permitted vehicles towing weight.

Then, make sure the combined gross weight for both is under 3.5t.

And, make sure the trailer fully loaded is less than the max gross weight of the trailer.




This because the rules are set at the maximum weights.

Yes, obviously including in the the fact that you can de-rate the trailer if you wish, as I understand it.

Reference to the weight being the maximum gross (Max GVW), or max allowable mass (MAM), has confusingly be removed from the gov.uk site, but from what's posted here, it appears this is certainly still how its being policed, and I expect its more likely that this is over simplification of the guidelines than a change in the laws.

A while it is not really the right way to think, and doesn't effect me as such, I also understand that while the penalty for towing/driving over laden is quite significant, it is almost supprisingly not a bad as that for driving with plates the don't match up, which gets booked as driving without a valid license.


Daniel

Volvorsport - 24/1/15 at 12:58 PM

I got my license before 1997.

if you have a vehicle that doesn't have a plated tow weight , ie an old Volvo 240 . How do you stay within the rules....

also, does the 3.5ton rule extend to those with a test before 1997...?

dhutch - 24/1/15 at 01:14 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Volvorsport
I got my license before 1997.

if you have a vehicle that doesn't have a plated tow weight , ie an old Volvo 240 . How do you stay within the rules....

also, does the 3.5ton rule extend to those with a test before 1997...?


The limit for those who passed before 1997 is typically 8.25 tons. Hence for almost any car/trailer combination you are unlikely to hit this limit, although as you have said you still have to comply with the limits of what trailer the car is signed off to tow. What is on the pack of your license?

Assuming there is nothing in the handbook, parkers fact&figures seems blank, so I would start with some more googling around subject, but then move onto a call to the DVLA/VOSA on that one...



##


I have also just found this page, which is the page I was looking for before and helps add some clarity.

https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car

Cant really see what changed in 2013, but something must have done..



Daniel

Volvorsport - 24/1/15 at 01:33 PM

quote:
Originally posted by dhutch
quote:
Originally posted by Volvorsport
I got my license before 1997.

if you have a vehicle that doesn't have a plated tow weight , ie an old Volvo 240 . How do you stay within the rules....

also, does the 3.5ton rule extend to those with a test before 1997...?


The limit for those who passed before 1997 is typically 8.25 tons. Hence for almost any car/trailer combination you are unlikely to hit this limit, although as you have said you still have to comply with the limits of what trailer the car is signed off to tow. What is on the pack of your license?

Assuming there is nothing in the handbook, parkers fact&figures seems blank, so I would start with some more googling around subject, but then move onto a call to the DVLA/VOSA on that one...



##


I have also just found this page, which is the page I was looking for before and helps add some clarity.

https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car

Cant really see what changed in 2013, but something must have done..



Daniel


as i understand it if its not plated it cant be enforced.

my license is

b, be , c1,c1e, d1,d1e. Fklnp

coozer - 24/1/15 at 01:39 PM

The limit for b+e is 7.5t, above that you need a C licence.

daniel mason - 24/1/15 at 01:58 PM

That's what I mean!
The website says weight must not exceed 3500kgs and that the trailer plus load must be under kerb weight of car!
I tick both these boxes.
But if you go on the mam of both I fail

coozer - 24/1/15 at 02:03 PM

quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
That's what I mean!
The website says weight must not exceed 3500kgs and that the trailer plus load must be under kerb weight of car!
I tick both these boxes.
But if you go on the mam of both I fail


Trailer plated and loaded weight must be under the vehicles towing limit not the kerb weight. And under 3.5t!

This post would be easier to describe with the towing vehicles specs! I'll go dig mine out.....

coozer - 24/1/15 at 02:28 PM

Here's mine, all info off the V5. Fiat Doblo 1.9

Technical permissible maximum towable mass of the trailer:

Max in service
Braked 1300kg
Unbraked 500kg

Max permissible mass: 3250kg

So, I can tow an unbraked loaded trailer up to a max of 500kg, or, a braked (caravan etc) up to a max of 1300kg. The combined total gross cannot exceed 3250kg.

Surprised at the low limit on the unbraked mind, need to replate my trailer!! Or, connect the brakes

[Edited on 24/1/15 by coozer]

daniel mason - 24/1/15 at 03:31 PM

I'm going to try to speak with someone to confirm as its a load of crap!
They are basically saying I'd be safer towing my 1000kg rig with a family.hatch back than my 4x4 even tough I'm well inside the 3500kg weight.
I understand that in theory I could load the trailer with a 1500kg and full the 4x4 with a ton of lead and go for a drive but I dont. Ever!
I have the trailer loaded @1100 kg max and in the car just me,my clothes and a few tools

[Edited on 24/1/15 by daniel mason]

daviep - 24/1/15 at 07:37 PM

quote:
Originally posted by coozer
quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
That's what I mean!
The website says weight must not exceed 3500kgs and that the trailer plus load must be under kerb weight of car!
I tick both these boxes.
But if you go on the mam of both I fail


Trailer plated and loaded weight must be under the vehicles towing limit not the kerb weight. And under 3.5t!

This post would be easier to describe with the towing vehicles specs! I'll go dig mine out.....


Daniels understanding is correct - the laden weight of the trailer must be less than the kerb weight of the towing vehicle.

Category B license obtained after 1997 pasted from .GOV
"Vehicles up to 3,500kg Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) and up to 8 passenger seats with trailer up to 750kg; trailers over 750kg if combined weight of vehicle and trailer isn’t over 3,500kg and the fully-loaded trailer doesn’t weigh more than the unladen vehicle"

See HERE for description of licenses categoriesHERE

Obviously you must still adhere to vehicle/trailer limits.

Regards
Davie

daniel mason - 24/1/15 at 07:45 PM

Davie. It clearly states combined weight of trailer and vehicle isn't over 3500 kgs. ( which mine isn't)
It doesn't say anything regarding MAM or GVW? What are your thoughts on this as mam is only mentioned when towing an unbraked 750kg limited trailer with a 3.5t MAM tow car!

daniel mason - 24/1/15 at 07:47 PM

Ah, it's clearly listed in ticense section! I'm gonna have to sell up AGAIN!

daviep - 24/1/15 at 08:51 PM

quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
Ah, it's clearly listed in ticense section! I'm gonna have to sell up AGAIN!


Can you not re plate your trailer to bring you within cat B?

Regards
Davie

daniel mason - 24/1/15 at 08:56 PM

No. I have a 2006 kia sorento 4x4. Massive load and towing capacity for a 2t truck!
The trailers not the issue as I'm at a max of 1100kg even fully loaded

daniel mason - 24/1/15 at 09:01 PM

2640kg MAM
650kg payload
1990kg kerb

onenastyviper - 24/1/15 at 09:37 PM

quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
Ah, it's clearly listed in ticense section! I'm gonna have to sell up AGAIN!


instead of selling up again,why dont you go for the b+e?

that way you are not restricted to the b towing entitlement?

daniel mason - 24/1/15 at 09:48 PM

That's the other option but at the cost plus time off work it really adds up! And the chances are I'll make money on the cars. I usually do!

jeffw - 24/1/15 at 10:01 PM

Think I'm OK with the Range Rover and

A, B, BE, B1, C1, C1E, D1, D1E, fklmp

talkingcars - 25/1/15 at 10:31 AM

quote:
Originally posted by coozer
The limit for b+e is 7.5t, above that you need a C licence.


and a 750kg trailer i.e.8.25.

bigfoot4616 - 25/1/15 at 01:23 PM

quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
That's the other option but at the cost plus time off work it really adds up! And the chances are I'll make money on the cars. I usually do!


but once you've done it it'll make things a lot easier, you never know what you might want to tow in the future.

what does the test cost?

Oddified - 25/1/15 at 02:11 PM

Luckily i'm old enough to have all the letters on my licence so it's not an issue, but if i had one of the newer ones with the restrictions for towing it has to be easier to take the extra test than doing all the arsing around juggling weights to keep inside the limits.

Ian

daniel mason - 25/1/15 at 02:29 PM

It's not difficult to under the 3500 kg mam limit
A car wth a 2t mam is quite big and a 1.5t MAM trailer is quite a decent size!
Doing the hills and sprints means the competition car must be as light as physically possible (think 300kg) or you'll be completely outpaced. Which does leave plenty of loading capacity.
It was the mam of the tow car which I fail on so may need a re think

dhutch - 25/1/15 at 05:41 PM

quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
They are basically saying I'd be safer towing my 1000kg rig with a family.hatch back than my 4x4 even tough I'm well inside the 3500kg weight.

As you say while if you dont load the 4x4 to its max its unlikely to be any worse, you could, and which point while its still going to be stable and safe if you hit something you would obliterate it.


Daniel

ste - 25/1/15 at 05:51 PM

Not a lot of people realise this, but the 750kg max unbraked limit isn't for all cars. First off, the MAM of the unbraked trailer cannot weigh more than half the MAM of the tow car so if you have a Fiesta then you cannot pull an empty trailer plated at 750kg.

I used to build trailers and not a single customer knew about this so I plated the trailers to suit their cars, most of which I plated at 500kg but with 750kg running gear.

Sierra - 25/1/15 at 06:26 PM

Quick question on your views. Do you think it would be ok/legal if the rear ramps where kept horizontal to fit the car on and strapped down. The seller of the trailer claims it would be and has done a few times.

Also if I was to purchase a small trailer could the bed be slightly lengthened at the a frame end or does the a frame need to be a certain length?

motorcycle_mayhem - 25/1/15 at 07:02 PM

Quite possible to get into trouble with an older licence and (my old) rig too. I've been VOSA'd many times, M5 (Taunton), A52 (Grantham), A17, A1, etc. Normally, a police car comes alongside, pulls me over to the hard shoulder and then escorts me to the VOSA centre. The van then gets a full mechanical inspection, as does the trailer, everything is weighed, licences checked, etc. The policeman will then start on the car within the trailer, especially if VOSA tell him that the van is 'OK'. It's all very annoying, and it has meant I've missed a practice session on a circuit before an event.

There are so many conflicting rules and opinions from VOSA and the police.

Some say the GTW allowance can be shunted around the various units, some not. Some have said the plated weight of the trailer is important, some not, looking at the actual weight. Some comment on trailer axle weightings (it's a twin), some don't care. All very confusing.

A Sprint Shuttle with a '7' car in it comes out at ca. 1200 Kg, more towards 1500Kg with the F3 car and tyres. It's plated 2000Kg
The Van has been either a 2.9t Transit, a 3.5t Transit or a 3.49t Land Rover (3.49t, 1-Ton, 1967 vintage).
GTW's are 4.3t, 5.5t and 6.5t respectively.

The 2.9t Transit (100 LWB) came very close to the GTW, so I'd always say go 3.5t to be VOSA-safe.

Fred W B - 25/1/15 at 07:05 PM

quote:

Do you think it would be ok/legal if the rear ramps where kept horizontal to fit the car on and strapped down


You would have to check into your local regulations on rear overhang length. Not much help I know but when I used to design truck bodies in SA the rear overhang could not be more than half the wheelbase. For a trailer I would guess the wheel base is considered from the hitch to the centre of the axles.

Cheers

Fred W B

[Edited on 25/1/15 by Fred W B]

talkingcars - 25/1/15 at 10:40 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Sierra
Quick question on your views. Do you think it would be ok/legal if the rear ramps where kept horizontal to fit the car on and strapped down.


Defiantly legal as long as it is lit correctly i.e. tail lights and side reflectors.

Charlie_Zetec - 26/1/15 at 03:06 PM

I've read, re-read and re-re-read the rules for towing a trailer. A simple question, and I'll put all the details I have below, and perhaps someone can just give me a definitive answer (or answers) so that I can be legal-ish moving forward....

Land Rover Defender 90 - EEC kerb weight of 1,750Kgs (1727Kgs by the book)
Towing Capacity - 3,500Kgs
Licence passed - 2001

According to Gov.uk website I can tow under Section B of my licence as follows;
"Vehicles up to 3,500kg Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) and up to 8 passenger seats with trailer up to 750kg; trailers over 750kg if combined weight of vehicle and trailer isn’t over 3,500kg and the fully-loaded trailer doesn’t weigh more than the unladen vehicle "

So 3,500Kgs MAM, minus 1,750Kgs of car = 1,750Kgs towable (trailer + contents combined)

As the 1,750Kgs trailer is more than the unladen weight of the car, I would need to reduce this to 1,727Kgs (or lower) of total towing weight.

Therefore I could tow a trailer with any plated weight, assuming that the trailer (plus contents) weighs less than 1,727Kgs and be within the rights of my licence and the law?

Am I correct in this???

daviep - 26/1/15 at 04:34 PM

No MAM of the Defender is 2400kg leaving you with 1100kgs for your trailer and load.

THIS flow chart from Ifor Williams explains it quite clearly.

Regards
Davie

[Edited on 26/1/15 by daviep]

Charlie_Zetec - 26/1/15 at 04:50 PM

quote:
Originally posted by daviep
No MAM of the Defender is 2400kg leaving you with 1100kgs for your trailer and load.

THIS flow chart from Ifor Williams explains it quite clearly.

Regards
Davie

[Edited on 26/1/15 by daviep]


Thanks for the IWT chart - explains it very clearly! According to that, I'd have to be towing a trailer plated at 1,700Kgs or less.

PS - I've checked on RAVE (Land Rover service factory manual) and with Land Rover and they both state 3,500Kg towing capability for a 300TDi Defender 90. But I have asked for this is writing from them to clarify.

I feel better informed already!

daviep - 26/1/15 at 06:07 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Charlie_Zetec
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
No MAM of the Defender is 2400kg leaving you with 1100kgs for your trailer and load.

THIS flow chart from Ifor Williams explains it quite clearly.

Regards
Davie

[Edited on 26/1/15 by daviep]


Thanks for the IWT chart - explains it very clearly! According to that, I'd have to be towing a trailer plated at 1,700Kgs or less.

PS - I've checked on RAVE (Land Rover service factory manual) and with Land Rover and they both state 3,500Kg towing capability for a 300TDi Defender 90. But I have asked for this is writing from them to clarify.

I feel better informed already!


If towing with a post '97 license the combined MAM of the vehicle and trailer cannot be more than 3500kg, the MAM of a Defender is 2400kg leaving you with a maximum of 1100kg MAM for the trailer. Your license is the restricting factor not the towing capacity of the vehicle.

If you had a B+E license you could tow a trailer with a MAM of 3500kg

Regards
Davie

dhutch - 27/1/15 at 07:03 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Oddified....it has to be easier to take the extra test than doing all the arsing around juggling weights to keep inside the limits.
Not when its a 1-2day course, a few hundred quid, and getting a day of work is like rocking horse poo and another £100....

However, as I have been doing some more digging for another project, I have also found this page which appears clearer than most.

http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/helpandadvice/technicalhelp/towing/driving-licences/

Also (in NI)

http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/index/information-and-services/motoring/buses-lorries-trailers-and-caravans/towing-trailers-or-caravans-with-vehicles-up-to -3-5-tonnes.htm


Daniel


[Edited on 27/1/2015 by dhutch]

Sierra - 27/1/15 at 07:34 PM

That website although very informative doesn't mention anything about the vehicle towing limit in the examples.
Just says vehicle MAM + trailer MAM must = upto 3500kg

In my example using my vehicle I didn't include my vehicle MAM but it's unloaded weight. So mine would be
Vehicle MAM 2100kg
Vehicle unloaded weight 1450kg
Vehicle tow limit 1200kg

So my trailer can be a maximum MAM of 1200kg, correct?
That way it will be vehicle MAM (2100kg +1200kg) trailer MAM =3300kg which is below my max of 3500kg but also trailer is within vehicle tow limit and below the weight of unloaded vehicle.

dhutch - 27/1/15 at 11:29 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Sierra
That website although very informative doesn't mention anything about the vehicle towing limit in the examples.

The camping&caravaning site has lots of pages, as does the nidirect.gov and direct.gov sites, but obviously keeping within the vehicle limits is not a leicece requirement. Although I agree it should be included in the flow chart.

quote:
Originally posted by Sierra
So my trailer can be a maximum MAM of 1200kg, correct?

Thats how I would read it, ie, the limit in your case is simply what the tow vehicle is signed off for.
- And in that case a B+E would not help.


Daniel

Sierra - 1/2/15 at 08:35 PM

Not sure if anyone will have the answer but will try anyway.
I've got hold of braked trailer which is not plated. What would the police/VOSA do in this case if they pulled me over?
Do they look at the max load of the tyres and take that as the trailer MAM?

ste - 1/2/15 at 10:27 PM

VOSA will take you to a weighbridge then have your pants down.

Sierra - 1/2/15 at 10:38 PM

Thing is the weight of the trailer, car and tow car will all be within the limits that I'm allowed. Just that the trailer will not be plated so just wondering if they would take the tyre load or not

daniel mason - 1/2/15 at 10:52 PM

Plate the trailer yourself. Make sure your on the right side of the Unladen weight. Deduct this from the mam you can tow on your license with your tow car and make sure your race car is not above the loading figure!
Eg;
Tow car mam 2000kg
Max towing capacity 1500kg
Trailer Unladen ( allow some tolerance) 500kg
Loading capacity 900kg
Trailer mam 1400kg

So your total mam 3400kg which is fine
And the trailer plus load less than max towing capacity of car!

dhutch - 1/2/15 at 11:26 PM

quote:
Originally posted by motorcycle_mayhem...I've been VOSA'd many times...
...It's all very annoying, and it has meant I've missed a practice session on a circuit before an event.....



There are so many conflicting rules and opinions from VOSA and the police.

Some say the GTW allowance can be shunted around the various units, some not. Some have said the plated weight of the trailer is important, some not, looking at the actual weight. Some comment on trailer axle weightings (it's a twin), some don't care. All very confusing.

A Sprint Shuttle with a '7' car in it comes out at ca. 1200 Kg, more towards 1500Kg with the F3 car and tyres. It's plated 2000Kg
The Van has been either a 2.9t Transit, a 3.5t Transit or a 3.49t Land Rover (3.49t, 1-Ton, 1967 vintage).
GTW's are 4.3t, 5.5t and 6.5t respectively.

The 2.9t Transit (100 LWB) came very close to the GTW, so I'd always say go 3.5t to be VOSA-safe.


I have to admit, I am glad I don't live down that way, and that I have not been pulled yet.

- Perfectly happy that I am legal if right on the limit, but the time to do the above sound a pain, certainly to do more than once.
- I am not a morning person a and frequently time my arrival to an autotest fairly carefully to get signed on and walk the test and this would play havoc.
- As I am towing a DIY build covered trailer (12ft*6ft*4ft slab sided box) behind a hatchback (E36 compact, previously Pug 306) it must stand out!?

Also very sad to hear the experience on the ground of the way its policed is an inconsistant as the advice available online and verbally from the authorities in question.

Daniel

dhutch - 1/2/15 at 11:45 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Sierra
Not sure if anyone will have the answer but will try anyway.
I've got hold of braked trailer which is not plated. What would the police/VOSA do in this case if they pulled me over?
Do they look at the max load of the tyres and take that as the trailer MAM?

When I did the same I was told that for a general purpose trailer, or car trailer, in the event of it being unplated they would take the rated MAM to be three times the unladen weight.

In my case, with a 580kg trailer, and a car with a curb weight of I think 1135 and maximum trailer capacity of 1200kg this would have ended badly.
The kitcar was weighed at the same time and came to 540kg (local public weigh bridge). So 580+540=1120kg and I was able to loose 20kg from the trailer by lightening the tailgate so it was game on if I could sort a plate.

Hence I asked was what required to get such a trailer plates, if someone could do that for me, and was told that I could do it myself. I pushed on and asked 'so what do I plate it as' and they basically said I could plate it at what I liked providing the tyres and suspension where not over loaded and the structure appeared sound.
- The axles have no rating on them, but the steel work is of the same section at the 1ton axles on another trailer I have and they appear to take the load well and as expected which to me confirms the rubber is also about right, which is the best I can do and hence the best anyone can do at this point given I am at least its third owner and the history unknown. The tires are rated at 358kg each hence (1430kg over four) hence enough that. The chassis looks sound, and as a mechanical engineering graduate I was happy with how it looked and it had by then done many hours of 'endurance testing' with the previous owner and a very similar car.

Plate was £3 off ebay, and I think stamped it out at 560 unlaiden, axle1 650kg, axle2 650kg, and the gross of 1100kg.

Since changing car I have re-plated it to 1200kg which is my new limit and gives a little more in hand for putting a pair of spare tyres in the car or the like.

I am not going outside right now, but I think I stamped it as follows 560unlaiden again, 700kg for each axle, and the 1200 gross.




Daniel

*typo corrected


[Edited on 2/2/2015 by dhutch]

Sierra - 1/2/15 at 11:56 PM

If you've plated it at gross 1200kg and unladen 750kg doesn't that just allow you to have 450kg car on it otherwise you'll be over

Oddified - 2/2/15 at 12:08 AM

Surely plating your own trailer or re-plating it to suit your own needs just shows what a farce the current system is!?. No offence to people doing it if that's what's needed to keep vosa happy but it doesn't make sense to me!.

Ian

daniel mason - 2/2/15 at 12:08 AM

760kg would leave him 440kg
Although earlier he said it's 580kg unladen

dhutch - 2/2/15 at 01:43 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Sierra
If you've plated it at gross 1200kg and unladen 760kg .../quote]

Sorry, a typo on my part 560, not 760.

Which is 580 less the 20kg I removed from the trailer with a lightened tailgate, etc.


Daniel

dhutch - 2/2/15 at 01:50 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Oddified
Surely plating your own trailer or re-plating it to suit your own needs just shows what a farce the current system is!?. No offence to people doing it if that's what's needed to keep vosa happy but it doesn't make sense to me!.

Ian

I don't think so. De-rating of the plates on commercial vehicles is equally common.

While it may seem slightly over kill for a domestic trailer, and they could have taken it to be the maximum weight of the trailer at the time, rather than that of the plated weight, formally derating the trailer with plate clearly says that although the trailer could carry more physically, due to the limitation of my tow vehicle/licence combination I can only tow so much.
If the plated figure is too high I presume to offence would be not having the licence for the combination, and if the actual weight was over the plated the offence would be driving an over weight vehicle. Although expect the outcome is similar for both?

- The other common time this is done is de-rating fixed body lorries to 7.5ton, or Vans to 3.5 ton.

- The issue comes with trailers, is if its shared, or you have more than one tow car.


Daniel

Oddified - 2/2/15 at 09:05 AM

Agreed with vehicles, but you can't just get a new plate off ebay for a vehicle weight change, down or up. With a bought trailer or if you have a homemade trailer (nothing wrong with that) you can plate it to what ever you need....that just seems a bit odd in our over official health and safety obsessed world. What stops people just slapping a new heavier mam on a trailer, who would know.

Don't get me wrong, i'm sure it makes life much easier with a trailer and if i built a trailer i'd just do the same with the rules as they are!.

Ian