OK, guess its confession time. Hellfire was written off on 18th November, two days before it was due to appear on MK stand at Exeter Kit Car show. Driver is OK other than whiplash injury and a huge dent to his pride (which is why we didn't make it public on this forum sooner). It happened in the wet and from what we can gather he lost control of the back end, bounced off kerbside a few times and shot across the road knocking down a concrete lamp-post.

After negotiating with the insurance company, three weeks later the cheque arrived through the post and we got to keep the Indy as part of the settlement.

Chassis is twisted from front to back, so, as we needed a new one, we also decided to make a few modifications. The Blade engine is in perfect working order but we have decided to put a ZX12R in the next one. We have already acquired a 2004 engine and the chassis has been ordered from MK. A lot of parts are useable from Hellfire, so we're hoping the next one will be on the road pretty soon.

Hats off to MK, the chassis stood up really well considering the impact. Top quality workmanship.

The rebuild will be detailed in our build diary. (Or should we call it re-build diary.....)

[Edited on 8-1-05 by Hellfire]

That was my favourite MK Indy

I really am shocked at the amount of cars being written off the winter, maybe it's a suggestion to us all

I hope the next 'Hellfire' is as nice as the last one

Will it be the same colour?

Adam

i was thinking today of how it might be a good idea to use really narrow rear tyres, to reduce grip so that you cant go so fast, combined with a more predictable slide. time might tell...

ps, commiserations about the car guys. at least you have good plans afoot.

[Edited on 7/1/05 by JoelP]

I have fairly narrow tyres - 185/70 x 13" - and believe me, they slide nicely as well!

The main difference is that they slide smoothly and predictably, with decent feedback. My personal experience of cars with big wide tyres is that they grip really well, but let go suddenly, surprising the driver.

I do wonder about the fact that a lot of the recently publicised mishaps have been with BECs - maybe the way the give their power is a contributory factor. Certainly when I drive a lively ordinary car on slippy roads I tend to keep the engine revs down and use low-end torque to keep momentum, rather than using the whole rev range.

Just my 2p's worth...

David

Unfortunately I think we are also victim to being used to front-wheel drive cars whose factory setup is on the boringly safe side of predictable and you have to try really hard to get one out of shape!
Rear wheel drive really is a whole different ball game and we should be taking more time, especially in view of the amount of time/effort/cash spent on the builds, getting used to driving them fast.
Comiserations mate, but knowing all of the secrets and tips you gained from building the first one, this one should go together in record time, right?

Jeez what bad luck! It was a good looking car. I never saw it in the 'flesh', but looked well put together.
I shall look forward to seeing the progress of 'number 2'.
Glad the driver is ok, if still a bit sore.

ATB fozzie

It'll be the other way round with me. Having learnt to drive in a Locost with a PTWR of 300bhp/t i'll be going into a FWD car to do my test.

quote:

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Originally posted by Syd Bridge

Not being nasty, but from the avatar pic, that car was 'an accident waiting to happen'. Sadly, a lot of the cars built are in the same category.

---

Shocked to hear it and glad the drivers ok.

enjoy your new build - probably still get finished before I do!

2p from me..........

the tyres most people use on the road (including me) need to warm up before they work, its like driving on ice skates in mine till they warm up, on the roads this time of year they never get warm enough.

Sorry to hear about the loss of Hellfire.

I agree with syd about the tyre sizes on cars. Not sure how a narrower tyre gives a longer contact patch, can you explain how its a longer patch Syd?. I thought the extra grip came from the extra pressure exerted due to the smaller area with the same load, P=F/A and all that. The side walls depth is something for people to consider, and i hear a lot of people mention 60's for 7's. At the end of the day they are tail happy(ish) cars anyway, so it doesnt need magnifying by having a sudden loss of grip due to lack of sidewall flex.

Sorry for the loss once again,
David

This is happening much too often around here

How many shunts is that now from members of this forum ?


Please - everyone - be carefull. Your locost is a loaded gun and you've really got to treat it with huge respect. Especially all you guys with the monster power and bike engines.
Even my little 1660 crossflow car will spin the wheels in third in the wet.


P.S. I am also a devotee of narrower tyres and taller sidewalls. 185/70x13" yokohama A021Rs for me. Officially a racing wet and - I'm very pleased to say - deeply unfashionable.

I thought you were a fan of the 'cheaper' tyre

quote:

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Originally posted by flak monkey
Not sure how a narrower tyre gives a longer contact patch, can you explain how its a longer patch Syd?.

---

Let me qualify the wheelspin in third statment.

That was with the bling spec 15" tyres (crappy tyres into the bargain) and with loutish use of the loud pedal.
The point I was making that it is possible.

I probably would struggle now with the current wheel tyre combo.


P.S. Phelpsa - these tyres 'were' cheap. £40 a pop from buyatyre.com

I know, thats what I was pointing out.

Adam

syd might mean that by being narrower, the tyre gets more squished than a wide tyre, hence there is more flattened lengthways into the road.

OK that seems to make sense. Cheers for clearing that up.

David

I had a quick thought about what I'd posted earlier, and realised what I'd missed...

If you put a bike engine in a Locost, you end up with a car that weighs around 450Kg, an engine that will give 150+ BHP, accelerate its revs VERY rapidly, all with rear-wheel-drive. That's a fierce combination!

You're approaching a race car on the road, and that HAS to be treated with respect.

My x-flow engined car is heavier, with an engine that may give up to 100 BHP, and which doesn't rev up too quick - and I still managed to go sideways on damp roads a couple of times.

These things are lively, and will bite!

Let's be careful out there...

David

BTW: I'm really glad that everyone who's had an 'incident' on this forum has come out of it alive and relatively undamaged - is does show that these cars do protect their occupants quite well! Hope you get your new car built soon, Hellfire.


[Edited on 7/1/05 by David Jenkins]

quote:

---

Originally posted by phelpsa
I know, thats what I was pointing out.

Adam

---

Back to the topic....
Hellfire - just because you owe me a spin sometime, you didn't have to get out of it this way!
Glad to hear who ever was driving was ok. Shame though - was a very tidy and nice build.
Does this mean you have a spare engine???
Pat...

quote:

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Originally posted by zilspeed

quote:

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Originally posted by phelpsa
I know, thats what I was pointing out.

Adam

---

You and I are now officially 'not talking'

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by David Jenkins
I have fairly narrow tyres - 185/70 x 13" - and believe me, they slide nicely as well!

The main difference is that they slide smoothly and predictably, with decent feedback.

---

Not nice to hear of all this winter carnage at all. Glad everybody is as well as can be expected and, er, has plenty to do over the winter and spring.

Kind of glad I'm doing a 4WD

But now i'm thinking do I sell my lovely 15" OZ super Ls with 195/50s and get some 13s? Hmmmm.

Sort of aside... I notice Caterham spec 13" alloys for their most basic models, rising through 14" up to 15" in the Superlight R400 - presumably offering progressively more 'bling' to progressively richer and probably more over-fashion conscious customers. But it's back down to 13" for the R500. Are they passing off as the quest for lighter weight an acknowledgment that 15" wheels and low profile tyres might be a bit too dangerous for their most frantic model?

Or is that a conspiracy theory too far? If anything I guess it shows at least that Caterham feel 15" wheels are not ideal for the ultimate performance of their lightest most hardcore model.

But the new 200/260 bhp CSR model is back on 15s. Hmmmmmmm. But that's probably not R500 light. Maybe the suitability of lower profile tyres increases with weight? Makes sense. So maybe BECs should definately be on 13s, and I might stick with my 15s...

Liam

Is it tyre size or the temp thats the problem? winter tyres are made to work in lower temps than standard tyres.

Sorry to hear the news Hellfire, can't think of a better reason to start building again!

I must agree with the talk of tyre temp. There is no way a light car will get standard road tyres up to temp in the winter. If I was using the car in the wet/winter I would get another set of wheels with 165s fitted. If you want to see an example of how important tyre temp is try and blag a ride in a Kart. First two laps on most tracks you are slip sliding around, get them to the right temp and they grip grip grip, over heat them and slip sliding away again.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Liam


Not nice to hear of all this winter carnage at all. Glad everybody is as well as can be expected and, er, has plenty to do over the winter and spring.

Kind of glad I'm doing a 4WD

But now i'm thinking do I sell my lovely 15" OZ super Ls with 195/50s and get some 13s? Hmmmm.

Sort of aside... I notice Caterham spec 13" alloys for their most basic models, rising through 14" up to 15" in the Superlight R400 - presumably offering progressively more 'bling' to progressively richer and probably more over-fashion conscious customers. But it's back down to 13" for the R500. Are they passing off as the quest for lighter weight an acknowledgment that 15" wheels and low profile tyres might be a bit too dangerous for their most frantic model?

Or is that a conspiracy theory too far? If anything I guess it shows at least that Caterham feel 15" wheels are not ideal for the ultimate performance of their lightest most hardcore model.

But the new 200/260 bhp CSR model is back on 15s. Hmmmmmmm. But that's probably not R500 light. Maybe the suitability of lower profile tyres increases with weight? Makes sense. So maybe BECs should definately be on 13s, and I might stick with my 15s...

Liam

---

Hi,
Sorry to hear of the loss of Hellfire. Glad you are okay though!

On the subject of tyres and wheels, I am currently looking for a suitable set for my build and would appreciate some advice.

I have Sierra rear disk brakes (Cortina fronts) and can't get 13" wheels to fit (tried Capri Laser's a while back). I would settle for 14" wheels if they willl fit over the calipers but I think only steel 14's will do so(?) So that leaves me with 15" wheels...
I have GTS Tuning rear wheel arches (9" version) which limit me on my +4" chassis to 195 or maybe just 205 wide tyres anyway and I was thinking of 195/50-15" as a nice popular option. In fact I am hoping to find a set of alloys from a Ford Fiesta or Mondeo or similar, second hand. I also considered getting a set of wheels and tyres from Halfords for £280 using the supplied tyres for track day fun and getting a decent set for the road. My engine is a Rover V8 (~180BHP) as many of you will know which has big torque but should perhaps be more "subtle" than the BEC engines to control (Right?)

However, this thread and other "crash" threads certainly focuses the mind a bit and I would appreciate any thoughts on how a set of 15" 195/50's would perform on my heavier than standard Locost. I also have a de-dion back end which may help or hinder (help I think?) the sudden back end breakaway problem.

Cheers,
Craig.

quote:

---

We can add to this, by taking into account the setup of most road going se7ens. From my observations, and a lot of what is said on here, I'd suggest that most are oversprung and overdamped. Not conducive to aiding mechanical grip. Road tyres rely on mechanical grip, sticky track tyres to adhesion. Track tyres and the everyday road are not good friends.

---

Well when i get my next 7 i think i'm going to take it somewhere where i can loon about so i will know where and at what point the car brakes away. This will give an indication to how it performes on the road so i will know how fast to go round corners. If it's wet/greasy then i'll SLOW DOWN which is all we really need to do.

I must confess that when i had my last Indy all i wanted to do all the time was go fast! After so many 7's crashing i think some sensible restraint is in order!!!

Andy

[Edited on 8/1/05 by donut]

quote:

---

Originally posted by craig1410
Hi,
Sorry to hear of the loss of Hellfire. Glad you are okay though!

On the subject of tyres and wheels, I am currently looking for a suitable set for my build and would appreciate some advice.

I have Sierra rear disk brakes (Cortina fronts) and can't get 13" wheels to fit (tried Capri Laser's a while back). I would settle for 14" wheels if they willl fit over the calipers but I think only steel 14's will do so(?) So that leaves me with 15" wheels...
I have GTS Tuning rear wheel arches (9" version) which limit me on my +4" chassis to 195 or maybe just 205 wide tyres anyway and I was thinking of 195/50-15" as a nice popular option. In fact I am hoping to find a set of alloys from a Ford Fiesta or Mondeo or similar, second hand. I also considered getting a set of wheels and tyres from Halfords for £280 using the supplied tyres for track day fun and getting a decent set for the road. My engine is a Rover V8 (~180BHP) as many of you will know which has big torque but should perhaps be more "subtle" than the BEC engines to control (Right?)

However, this thread and other "crash" threads certainly focuses the mind a bit and I would appreciate any thoughts on how a set of 15" 195/50's would perform on my heavier than standard Locost. I also have a de-dion back end which may help or hinder (help I think?) the sudden back end breakaway problem.

Cheers,
Craig.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by craig1410
On the subject of tyres and wheels, I am currently looking for a suitable set for my build and would appreciate some advice.

---

also a lower load rating will be more benficial since a higher load rating nedes more work to make it heat up and give grip - so the lowly tyres are more suited down to the general lightness of the vehicle .

Because a low profile tyre is stiffer , the contact patch gets wider , but shorter as opposed tp longer and thinner on a higher profile tyre . you can get an indication of this sort of thing by looking at tyre tread , michelin Tb15 have no fancy tread pattern , merely just grooves , but are brill in wet and have good stick in the dry .

Hi Adam,
Thanks for pointing out that there are some 14" wheels which will fit. I might look into this further. I was looking at Peugeot 205 GTI wheels and IIRC the 1.6GTI has 14" wheels and the 1.9GTI has 15" wheels, both with 108mm PCD albeit with a slightly too large centre hole. I was aiming for the larger wheel but the smaller one should be easier to come by if it will clear the calipers.

First thing I'll need to do is try a few different tyre sizes in the wheel arch and see what my maximum overall diameter is going to be and then take it from there. I'm not bothered about gearing or ride height at this stage but I would like a 195 wide (or at the very least 185) to give me some chance of getting the torque of the V8 onto the ground in the dry...

Cheers,
Craig.

195/55 14 Yoko A-048R sounds about right for your purpose. 13" split rims will also (just) fit with the handbrake spring bent a bit.

Adam

sorry to hear about hellfire it was my fav mk glad to hear the drivers ok ................. can't wait to see HELLFIRE2

all the best woodster

All this response to our little incident is very reassuring, welcome and very motivating.

What amazes me is the speed at which a few people 'assume' speed/wet/corners/over-wide, low-profile tyre sizes were involved.

The only clear fact from this, is that the car was travelling too fast for the situation.

The new car will be suitably less shod though...

craig1410,

hi.

why don't you buy my wheels.

brand new and unused 6 X 14 compomotives (look like CXRs, only with a centre cap, and weigh 6.3kg each) shod with 185 60 14 yokohama A539 rubber.

they are four stud, 108 pcd and et 33 offset (ford fitment).

£384 + carriage.

regards,

dom.

I was waiting for that post

Believe it or not, I started my car before you hellfire, and my chassis isn't even painted yet

adam john phelps,

all dese late nights is bad 4 u, u no. look what's happened 2 your face.

How the hell do you know my middle name

Its in your profile

Dammit, my yahoo id

Craig,
you talk about peugeot wheels, I put 405 Mi16 wheels on mine with 195/50x15 tyres. They remind me of Revolution 5 spokes. Car handles well and with road tyres, is very predictable when going sideways!!

Marcus

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hellfire
What amazes me is the speed at which a few people 'assume' speed/wet/corners/over-wide, low-profile tyre sizes were involved.

The only clear fact from this, is that the car was travelling too fast for the situation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Liam


Not nice to hear of all this winter carnage at all. Glad everybody is as well as can be expected and, er, has plenty to do over the winter and spring.

Kind of glad I'm doing a 4WD

But now i'm thinking do I sell my lovely 15" OZ super Ls with 195/50s and get some 13s? Hmmmm.

Sort of aside... I notice Caterham spec 13" alloys for their most basic models, rising through 14" up to 15" in the Superlight R400 - presumably offering progressively more 'bling' to progressively richer and probably more over-fashion conscious customers. But it's back down to 13" for the R500. Are they passing off as the quest for lighter weight an acknowledgment that 15" wheels and low profile tyres might be a bit too dangerous for their most frantic model?

Or is that a conspiracy theory too far? If anything I guess it shows at least that Caterham feel 15" wheels are not ideal for the ultimate performance of their lightest most hardcore model.

But the new 200/260 bhp CSR model is back on 15s. Hmmmmmmm. But that's probably not R500 light. Maybe the suitability of lower profile tyres increases with weight? Makes sense. So maybe BECs should definately be on 13s, and I might stick with my 15s...

Liam

---

Interesting reading on tyres - I was running 195 - 50 -15's Toyo Proxys. Up till this point they had always been quite predictable. I have slid the car around under power on many track days, and slid it around in the wet and dry on the road.

I think what caught me out was the patchyness of the surface. It was mostly dry that morning, but as I put the power on (gently!) coming out of a corner I had a small amount of sideways movement on a damp patch followed by a lot of grip on a dry patch, catapulting me straight into the verge and off into trees. I think if it had a been completely wet the slide would have been either more controllable (unlikely) or at least I would have spun right round and therefore probabaly just been embarrassed rather than crashed.

The only thing that would have stopped this happening would be to not have gone out in those conditions or just have taken it much easier than I was.

I don't the the cars are the problem, it's just that when we get them we drive them as 'sports cars' not MPV's

That's a very good point about patchiness of road conditions. I live on top of a hill and at the bottom of it there's a gentle 90 degree bend going up the hill. I've driven round this bend 1000's of times in the past, was coming round it a few weeks ago in dry(ish) conditions. A water main, was leaking and caused a wet and greasy patch just at the end of the corner. I was coming back from leaving a dvd back to the rental shop, not driving at all quickly. I was gently (for a BEC anyhow!) accelerating out of the corner to go up the hill only to find the back of the car trying to overtake the front. I steered into it and took my foot of the accelrator, the back wheels went back onto dry and gripped, the whole car luched about a good bit, I kept it on the road OK, but if another car had been coming or I had been going at all quickly I was toast. It can happen to anyone.

Truely gutted about it hellfire, I was hoping to catch a glimps of the beast at a show but never did.

I have followed your build diary from month to month with great interest and it has provided me with enthusiasm and in with the bargain i have pinched quite a few ides from it too

I hope the next one is as good if not better.

The tyre chit is very confusing,

i have spoken to a car engineer and it all depends on what you want.

The property of Rubber is that less pressuere with the other surface more grip it gives (with metal it is not so for example// train wheels)

soow in the Dry we have plente of grip because our car weight nothing and has still really wide tyres on it.

In the wet it is other story.

In very much country's lorry's and busses don't have a minimum profile depth spec.

its simple because their enormous weight.
in the wet the water wil be pushed away by that weight and their is the grip again.

in our situation its really bad in the wet, we have pour weight and we have big tyres (low surface amount)

and thats the reason we suffer fast from "aqua-planning"

soow i advices using in the winter winter tyres more profile, lower start temperatures etc.

but what do you thing of throttle reponse?
in the wet that's a problem the need of sensitive grow enormous ly

and one time spinning a wheel there comes soow much energie in it that hardly to stop..

it sbetter then to hold the trhottle and use the energy to steer you vehicle..//trow it around the corner..

well that's it

TKS

Only just read this thread. Real shame, it was one of the best examples of an Indy about.
Hope whoever was driving is OK.
See you guys soon, if there is anything you need give me a shout.

Gordon

I've only just seen his post too. Really bad luck....Makes you think though.
I came back from Plymouh the other night on country roads. Hit a patch of mud that I couldn't see in time,scared the crap out of me as the car four wheel drifted sideways. Regaining grip just before the hedge.
Muuusst slloow doown.
What the hell, blew away a Westfield yesterday!

When you really get down to it, it's the right foot that's the real problem!
My recent rear-end twitch (ooer!) was entirely due to me over-enthusiatically booting it out of a long sweeping corner, which I probably wouldn't have tried in my "real" car.

David

It seems sense is prevailing now... it's irrelevant what tyres, setup or whatever else, you have.

There is really only one factor that decides your fate.

Q1. Are you going too fast for the current situation?

A1. No - then no problem
A2. Yes - then slow down

It really is THAT simple!

Yup - too true

Jeez...
I stay out the forum for a few weeks and come back to find we've been stuffing them into the scenery (didn't we have a spate last year aswell)

Steve. really sorry to hear abaut the prang, one of the best finished sevens I've seen. Mk2 will be better.

John

should be a business opportunity for someone....

locost traction control.................



atb

steve

[Edited on 20/1/05 by stephen_gusterson]

HUGE return spring on throttle !

Sorry to here about the lose of hellfire

Hope its not to long till the new one is built ,What you going to call it ??

Cheers Drew