Does anyone else think that the people who are ripping off Martin Keenan's MK Indy chassis have gone too far?

The "RSC" that was shown at Donnington was the latest. The car they used on the track on Sunday actually had MK manufactured wishbones on it.

I think we all know that chassis made by Sports Power Drive and mac#1 are shall we say very similar to the Indy I think this new copy may be the last straw, I wouldn't be surprised if some sort of legal action might be in the offing.

I not an expert, but I know you can't just copy other peoples designs and sell them as your own.

Cheers

Chris

Is that why there are some very deliberate 'mistakes' in the 'build a sports car for £250', to avoid any litigation issues, sneaky or what !!
Jason

Striking how similar all the chassis' are to Uncle Ron's book and the chassis in there looks pretty much identical to the drawings in the Westfield build manual. There are so many Sevens out there I don't think anyone has much of a case on the chassis front!

Chris

quote:

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Originally posted by ChrisW
Striking how similar all the chassis' are to Uncle Ron's book and the chassis in there looks pretty much identical to the drawings in the Westfield build manual. There are so many Sevens out there I don't think anyone has much of a case on the chassis front!

Chris

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I seem to remeber something about a comapny called Westfield being sued by another called Caterham because Westfield were manufacturing something similar to a design Caterham had bought the rights for from Lotus.

Westfield changed the design slightly and I think they still manufacture a few cars and kits.

Finding out where the line is drawn between copies and modified design often leads to lawyers making enough money to buy expensive Caterhams to show off in Not sure if anyone else ever wins though, except maybe through publicity.

MK is basically making a 'copy' of a seven anyway.....its whats called a 'me too' product.

I suspect there isnt much money in building kit cars and a law suit of 100k or so could cause a lot of damage to MK, if they had a case or not.

atb

steve

there was a "mac1" at donninton that was, not just a look a like, an MK Indy.

Mk have developed their own chassis which is of a similar shape to a lotus seven, but, no dimensions are the same and no part of the chassis is identical.

RSC, Mac#1 and sports power drive produce chassis that are dimensionally and constructionally identical to the MK Indy.

Could MK afford to sue?

Dunno, it's a growing market, could they afford Not to? I don't think it'd be too difficult a case to prove as MK parts such as wishbones, glassfibre etc fit on the other chassis - that can't be a coincidence.

I can't understand how these folks stay in business anyway - the copies are dearer than the original!!

Cheers

Chris

[Edited on 22/9/03 by chrisg]

I don't know if the "parts will fit" argument would hold water. From what I understand there are many parts which can be interchanged between Westfield and Caterham even post litigation.

Only MK (and their lawyers) can decide if they can afford to sue or not, the ultimate question being is it worth risking the business to protect the business.

quote:

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I don't know if the "parts will fit" argument would hold water. From what I understand there are many parts which can be interchanged between Westfield and Caterham even post litigation.

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Arr, but dosn't the MK have superior welding tho !!
Bit of a give away so I'm told

Jason

Yep chris you are right they are far too close in identity,this was shown at newark on the MK owners club area.

An MK built chassis and bones but built by SPD turned up and parked on the club area,no prob there but later i saw an SPD and the car was identical absolutely nothing in it apart from the front top wishbones upside down and back to front.

It seems to me that everyone who ever manufactured a sierra based car is very close to MK's design,in fact i can only think of one that is different and thats the RH 2B or 3 or whatever it is.

"It seems to me that everyone who ever manufactured a sierra based car is very close to MK's design,in fact i can only think of one that is different and thats the RH 2B or 3 or whatever it is. "

any body had a look at how westfield have done there single doner car?

I think it's their normal chassis, they've made the package cheaper by leaving other stuff out.

Cheers

Chris

on the suing thing, look what happened to the Diana fund. They sued over a fairly petty little doll thing, and the cost buried them.

copying something can be hard to prove as it could be said that any seven, after 40 years, is no longer original and past protection. Stuff like patents expire after 20 years approx, for example.

When you patent something, you have to prove that its not something that someone skilled in the art wouldnt have found obvious.

on the other hand, making something just a bit different, whilst being essentially the same, isnt enough to make it different.

(does that make sense???? !!!)

So, you could say that anything that looks essentially like a seven, be it same size of a few miliimetres different, is still a seven.

Dunno how westfield got around it.

Im not a lawyer by any means, this is just some of the stuff I have picked up whilst assisting my company in filing patents.


atb

steve


ps

I stil dont understand how dyson can have over 100 patents on a vacuum cleaner!

[Edited on 22/9/03 by stephen_gusterson]

Automotive patents are only 15 years, those who protect them are easy to spot, you cannot get patern parts for Porsche unless it is for an early one for instance.

i thought the westfield/ caterham thing was more about the use of "7"

quote:

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Originally posted by stephen_gusterson
on the suing thing, look what happened to the Diana fund. They sued over a fairly petty little doll thing, and the cost buried them.

atb

steve

Citroen Diane/Citroen dolly not sure i get the link.

Anyhow i too was surprised at the westfield single donor,obviously they were losing far too much market to the new low volume builders.

At the end of the day unless you use the rear beam axle from a sierra its allways going to be upper lower wishbones front and back ,suppose they will end up looking the same.

Unless its a Luego Vienetta,which has a market for the lard arse.

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ChrisW - 23/9/03 at 10:10 AM

You calling me a lard arse Bob??

Chris

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timf - 23/9/03 at 10:12 AM

chrisw's viento, the extra widths for the monkey's arse

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stephen_gusterson - 23/9/03 at 04:22 PM

were you being so subtly humourous there that I didnt get it




point is, it could cost more to sue that the amount you would lose trying to keep lost business though 'copyists'.

there are over 12 'seven' replicas on the market, a further one , even if its a direct copy, isnt gonna make a difference, surely>?


I wish em luck anyway

quote:

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Originally posted by bob

quote:

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Originally posted by stephen_gusterson
on the suing thing, look what happened to the Diana fund. They sued over a fairly petty little doll thing, and the cost buried them.

atb

steve

Citroen Diane/Citroen dolly not sure i get the link.

Anyhow i too was surprised at the westfield single donor,obviously they were losing far too much market to the new low volume builders.

At the end of the day unless you use the rear beam axle from a sierra its allways going to be upper lower wishbones front and back ,suppose they will end up looking the same.

Unless its a Luego Vienetta,which has a market for the lard arse.

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D Beddows - 23/9/03 at 06:15 PM

Surely eveyone knows that a true Locost chassis is a badly documented rip off of a pre lit Westfield that someone (who shall remain nameless) f**ked up by increasing the wheelbase and reducing the track rather than doing the sensible thing.........

MK - lovely, very well built stuff, Procomp moved it on a level though with even better build quality and a few devistatingly simple but very clever design ideas. OK they wont build you one for the road but........

Cheers

Dave

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chrisg - 23/9/03 at 07:20 PM

Never heard of Procomp Dave - have they got a website?

Cheers

Chris

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JoelP - 23/9/03 at 07:21 PM

http://www.procomp.co.uk/

faster than a speeding greased turd...

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Deckman001 - 23/9/03 at 07:23 PM

You bugger !! I'd just cut and paste'd it me self

http://www.procomp.co.uk/

Jason

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chrisg - 23/9/03 at 08:06 PM

Thanks lads (I hope they're both the same!)

Cheers

Chris

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JoelP - 23/9/03 at 10:09 PM

my clocks wrong, i always get messages from the future, like, before they're written. like.

only a minute, but it give me an edge.


erm... and schizo by the looks of it...

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chrisg - 23/9/03 at 10:41 PM

Looks good, why can't you have a road going one?

Is it just SVA issues? With the cage etc.

Cheers

Chris

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D Beddows - 23/9/03 at 11:28 PM

Ivan and Matt (ie Procomp) don't build stuff to make money as a rule, 'cos they don't have to as you ask!, and are realy only interested in building racing cars eg the LA Gold which was developed because they got bored of modifying peoples Westfield chassis and decided it would be easier (!!) to build one from scratch.
If it wasn't for my good mate Darryl Beckwith they wouldn't ever have built a Locost Chassis and Mr Townsend and I feel honoured to have the 2nd Procomp Locost chassis (wasn't cheap mind and last season people gave us all kinds of grief because of it) .......this year people have embarked on various 'engine development programs' so we haven't been able to show it off to its' best advantage but I firmly believe it's as good a chassis as even a Caterham....if Caterhams were built to the wrong dimensions too.......and people are waiting for robin' rons' 3rd edition mmmmmmm..............

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MK Goldrush - 29/9/03 at 11:53 AM

Back to the original subject. Surely the cost of any potential legal action would be better spent on development of the existing product to keep one step ahead of the copying competition

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