http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6991147.stm
that fine - ouch !!!!
I shouldn't be surprised if the team pulls out of F1 - which would make the whole formula a farce.
What am I saying - it is a farce, and has been for years.
vo surprise there then....i was reading an article a few days ago,most of the "jury" seem to be employed by ferrari in one way or another,i
just hope the wheels fall of their wagon and lewis wins the world championship
They lose a LOT of income next year because it relates to the previous year's constructors points..............................
I bet they can afford to pay that fine though!!!
They've been successful for a V.long time.
The fine is a bit of a shame.....
Thing is, does anyone actually care who the "offical" constructors champion is? Okay, its good bragging rights on adverts but who else
cares?
There'll just be a virtual league for next season showing who would have won if they were getting points. If the TV coverage doesn't show
it, it doesn't change things, it'll be on PlanetF1 etc.
If at the end of the season McLaren have more "virtual" points its kudos to them. Ferrari aren't really going to turn round and say
"well McLaren wiped the floor with us in 2008 but we won the constructors championship so there!!!"....
quote:
Originally posted by BenB
The fine is a bit of a shame.....
Thing is, does anyone actually care who the "offical" constructors champion is? Okay, its good bragging rights on adverts but who else cares?
There'll just be a virtual league for next season showing who would have won if they were getting points. If the TV coverage doesn't show it, it doesn't change things, it'll be on PlanetF1 etc.
If at the end of the season McLaren have more "virtual" points its kudos to them. Ferrari aren't really going to turn round and say "well McLaren wiped the floor with us in 2008 but we won the constructors championship so there!!!"....
what the hell constitutes that level of fine!! Something is amiss here, summat ain't being let out the bag.
quote:
They've been successful for a V.long time.
Sir Jackie S leveled his guns at the FIA for being in FIAT/Ferraris pocket earlier in the week, JYS is closely associated with Ford who are not
normally an ally of Daimler-Chrysler so can be considered impartial. A lot of the others who constitute the sports "great & the good"
including Eddie Jordan are on record that Ferrari & and the FIA are doing immense damage.
Mean while in Ferraris own ranks Jean Todt is apparently very out of favour with the board and Ross Brawn is on his way back.
Just read this
What is he up to?
quote:
Mean while in Ferraris own ranks Jean Todt is apparently very out of favour with the board and Ross Brawn is on his way back.
quote:
Originally posted by omega 24 v6
[
LOL is that cause he dared to speak to Martin Brundle on the grid on saturday. Tis funny how even in the schumi days Ferrari have never been keen to speak to non German journalists/presenters.
Oh and as a matter of interest HAS ANYONE EVER SEEN KIMI EXCITED.
Now Sir Stirling Moss has also slammed the FIA.
Why is everyone having a go at Ferrari, It was McLaren that cheated, Their board where presented with the information and chose to use it, had they
been upfront and went straight to the FIA or Ferrari this would not be happening and they would have been seen as righteous instead of cheating
barstewards.
I also cannot see why the drivers are being allowed to keep their points, at the very least they could have evened up Hamilton and Rikkonen's
points and let them compete on a level playing field until the end of the season
The whole things a farse
Ferrari just don't like anyone pi$$ing on their formula (by winning). They'd turn F1 in the Ferrari championship.
Ferrari have been the biggest cheats in F1 ever. Listening in on radio traffic, flexi wings, team tactics, driving people off the road etc etc.....
Shumi used to regularly have a butchers at the opposition cars in parc ferme- was that just to check out their paint jobs?
Borrowing ideas off other teams is just standard. Seamless shift technology wasn't released to all cars @ the same time, one got it, the rest
copied them....
A ferrari bod came to McLaren with Ferrari technology. If their own people are squeeling, where's the harm in listening? 
Ferrari should take
better control of their own people!!!!
quote:
Originally posted by locogeoff
Why is everyone having a go at Ferrari, It was McLaren that cheated
Just watched the news and In the press conference Ron Dennis looked like a man devastated. The reporter said that McLaren would like to appeal but are
afraid that the consequences could be even worse WTF. This year has seen some of the most exciting and closest racing/championships for around 15
years.For me probably since Piquet and Mansell's days. But it's been soured by todays outcome. IF there is proof of cheating/spying will we
ever see/hear of it?? At least in a court of law your in front of a jury of men "good and true". If that was the case then perhaps it'd
all be in the open and we could make our own judgement but this way the money men win (untill no one wants to watch 2 Ferraris driving round a track
by themselves). Ron's a self made man who's built up an amazing company capable of beating the money fuelled giants it's like David
versus goliath.
Everyone knows the storyline, and can picture David as a small man with passion and a big heart. Goliath was just a guy that needed a kicking.
It amazes me that a McLaren employee is found in possesion of Ferrari information and Ferrari and the F.I.A. are the bad guys!
quote:
It amazes me that a McLaren employee is found in possesion of Ferrari information and Ferrari and the F.I.A. are the bad guys!
The whole sad situation leaves me pondering a couple of questions:
Why would McLaren "spy" on a slower car, surely they don't want to go backwards? The only advantage would be to see how far they are
behind.
Just who will actually pay the fine, if indeed it is ever paid. Likewise who will ensure McLaren stay in the fight next year without TV money. Why
would McClaren stay in F1 to maintain TV money that they can't win?
What will Bernie do? Of course as always we won't know until long after it has been done and even then we may never find out. Nobody makes his
sort of money without the ability to hide a few secrets.
What price now on a "real" constructors series. Hard to see it happen as FIAT seems to have a fat finger in more F1 garages than Ferrari. I
say FIAT as in reality Ferrari ceased to be a number of years ago.
The sad truth is that the public just want the appearance of good racing and are only interested in the drivers. If you don't believe me look at
the viewing figures for this year of Hamilton.
Why am I interested? particularly as the racing has become more and more contrived and less and less real. How many more regulation changes are we
going to have to put up with on the excuse of creating a level playing field. F1 was most successful, other than in making money, when it was the
least regulated formula and yes the wrong team used to win regularly. Just think how many of Chapmans revolutionary ideas would have seen the light
these days. Not many I feel.
IMHO, Bernie will hold it all together for as long as it suits him to. Whatever the cost.
A long suffering and rapidly cooling F1 fan.
Unfortunately all my questons are answered if one considers F1 a business rather than a sport. McClaren is a business that doesn't exist without
F1 and so it will need to survive in F1 to trade. Ferrari currently has the power in the politics of F1 at the moment even if it is getting beaten on
the track. Politics ebb and flow - nothing really changes only the faces.
[Edited on 13/9/07 by wheelfelloff]
quote:
Originally posted by omega 24 v6
quote:
It amazes me that a McLaren employee is found in possesion of Ferrari information and Ferrari and the F.I.A. are the bad guys!
Well they got it from a disgruntled Ferrari guy that apart from losing his job and allegedly being chased at high speed by people in ferraris seems to have got of scot free.
For me the question is does the intellectual property belong to the team or the guy who hadthe idea/invented it.
However the Ron Dennis witchhunt has gone on for years.
Let me ask you this (disregarding todays happenings). Would you be happy to see the demise of formula one due to politics like this. Ferrari, have in the past always looked to the FIA ,when another team is beating them, if they think they can win on technical infringements.
This whole scenario is based on the fact that IMHO Ferrari fans are passionate about their team to the exclusion of all others. Most other F1 fans see many aspects of good and brilliance in various other teams but choose to support to a higher degree one of those teams.
Bernie is behind it. I have no proof, but who has paid him all these years? Who sponsors Ferrari? Is any other car on the grid backed by a cigarette
maker - whom he has supported at every turn. He is a snake. The whole thing is a sham.
And if motor racing, F1 that is, is crooked, what is cycling?
For me the whole thing was summed up very well by Bernie himself at the intro to the last grand prix. He said to Steve Ryder (and I paraphrase)
"If it were two teams at the back of the grid we wouldn't be having this conversation."
Very sad state of affairs for f1.
Ned.
I prefer to watch the US Champ car series - a good blend of driver skill & team tactics, plus other practical features, e.g. time-limited
'push-to-pass' facility, if a car spins & stalls a marshal runs out with a starter, and so on.
Even the GP2 series that runs alongside the F1 is far more entertaining, with real racing.
[Edited on 14/9/07 by David Jenkins]
Must admit I prefer WRC these days, F1 has seemed rather boring for a while.
quote:
Originally posted by RK
Bernie is behind it. I have no proof, but who has paid him all these years? Who sponsors Ferrari? Is any other car on the grid backed by a cigarette maker - whom he has supported at every turn. He is a snake. The whole thing is a sham.
And if motor racing, F1 that is, is crooked, what is cycling?
F1 is falling apart the seams just as it was starting to regain some of its former glory.
Why?
It doesn't matter which teams are competitive, but when Ferrari loose..........
This smacks of a Ferrari set up:
leaked documents
Maclaren honouring the gentlemens agreement and it not being acted on
Ferrari moaning about Maclaren cheating
Oh Perleeeeeese
It could have been Williams or any other team that was winning.
The people that run the sport/business should have no ties whatsoever to any team or circuit, otherwise how can they be seen to be fair and above
board.
People will put up with human error but corruption on this level.............
Something has got to give.
Ferrari always have had to have a bette noir and have enough influence in high circles to use the Italian police for thier own ends,it used to be
Colin Chapman who was always under threat of arrest if he set foot in Italy.
For years Jim Clark was under the same threat after the 1962 Italian GP fatal acident with Von Tripps works Ferrari.
quote:
Originally posted by Russ-Turner
It amazes me that a McLaren employee is found in possesion of Ferrari information and Ferrari and the F.I.A. are the bad guys!
So when Ferrari won everything in 2004, the change in regulations wasn’t to hurt them then, change in points to stop Schui from winning faster, etc...They are all as bad, and they all cheat - its been that way for the last 30 years. There were also the accusations between Williams/Mclaren in the 90's - some one wins and the rest will see if there is a way they can get one over on them.
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
Ferrari always have had to have a bette noir and have enough influence in high circles to use the Italian police for thier own ends,it used to be Colin Chapman who was always under threat of arrest if he set foot in Italy.
For years Jim Clark was under the same threat after the 1962 Italian GP fatal acident with Von Tripps works Ferrari.
What bemuses me slightly is this, a Mclaren employee receives Ferrari data seemingly off his own back without management knowledge yet Mclaren get
held accountable for their employees action and therefore the team is deemed to have transgressed the rules.
Surely if Mclaren are deemed to be accountable for all their employees actions though, then Ferrari should be to, ie it was actually Ferrari
themselves, as a team, who gave Mclaren the data, not Stepney working in isolation! How can it be that on one side the team is responsible, yet the
other not?
I also think there's something extremely fishy about the outcome, if Mclaren really did enough wrong to justify a $100m fine and no contstructor
points this year (they are OK next year BTW), then you'd have to assume the car pace benefitted substantially, in which case why are Ferrari not
up in arms that the Mclaren drivers are still top of the pile leaving Ferrari (or FIAt as I will forever now call them 
) ?
My personal take on it is that the FIA have either taken Mclaren to the cleaners for a minor transgression for political reasons, or there'll be
something else that comes out of this that we're not currently aware of where the Mclaren team have been doing something far worse or blatantly
lying about knowing of these documents etc, but its something that hasnt actually had a direct effect on the car's pace. My bet is on the former.
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
The elephant in the room is the son of Black Shirt, who has quietly hidden in a corner.
What right do the Italian "Communications Police" have to read emails between F1 drivers.
quote:
Ferrari is FIAT
quote:
Originally posted by locogeoff
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
The elephant in the room is the son of Black Shirt, who has quietly hidden in a corner.
What right do the Italian "Communications Police" have to read emails between F1 drivers.
The Communications police have the right when an apparent imfringement of sporting regulations has been made, you either play by the rules or you go and play elsewhere.
Please pardon my ignorance but who is son of black shirt?
[Edited on 14/9/07 by locogeoff]
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisGamlin
What bemuses me slightly is this, a Mclaren employee receives Ferrari data seemingly off his own back without management knowledge yet Mclaren get held accountable for their employees action and therefore the team is deemed to have transgressed the rules.
Surely if Mclaren are deemed to be accountable for all their employees actions though, then Ferrari should be to, ie it was actually Ferrari themselves, as a team, who gave Mclaren the data, not Stepney working in isolation! How can it be that on one side the team is responsible, yet the other not?
I also think there's something extremely fishy about the outcome, if Mclaren really did enough wrong to justify a $100m fine and no contstructor points this year (they are OK next year BTW), then you'd have to assume the car pace benefitted substantially, in which case why are Ferrari not up in arms that the Mclaren drivers are still top of the pile leaving Ferrari (or FIAt as I will forever now call them
My personal take on it is that the FIA have either taken Mclaren to the cleaners for a minor transgression for political reasons, or there'll be something else that comes out of this that we're not currently aware of where the Mclaren team have been doing something far worse or blatantly lying about knowing of these documents etc, but its something that hasnt actually had a direct effect on the car's pace. My bet is on the former.
quote:
Originally posted by locogeoff
In short, McLaren cheated,
quote:
Originally posted by andyps
quote:
Originally posted by locogeoff
In short, McLaren cheated,
I have read the complete FIA document and cannnot find any evidence presented by the FIA to back up this statement. Please can you tell me where it says this as I obviously missed it.
The only way McLaren appear to have benefitted from thei information they received is that they discovered that Ferrari were using what they considered to be an illegal floor. McLaren presented a similar design to the FIA to ask if it would be legal and were told it wasn't. The FIA then changed their test procedure when measuring deflection of the floor and found that the Ferrari (and BMW) floor was illegal so had to be changed. If the floor gave Ferrari a benefit McLaren then benfitted as it increased the performance differential they already had from Ferrari.
A certain ciggy maker is Ferrari, not Fiat. He who has the money, has the stick. Industrial espionage is one of the oldest games in the book, probably a close second to you-know-what as the oldest profession - "hey, can you show me that wheel thing you made?"
quote:
Originally posted by locogeoff
My statement was made before the official announcement and based on evidence I had at the time, however on this evenings news there was reports of Alonso refering to using intellectual property of Ferrari (the use of gas mixtures for filling tyres) contained in the leaked document hence I would say the cheating accusation can still stand.
Having started to read the document myself I would draw your attention to sections 3.4, 3.13, and 3.18 as examples of the above.
[Edited on 14/9/07 by locogeoff]
quote:
from the FIA document
3.16 Although the e-mail exchange between Mr. Alonso and Mr. de la Rosa makes
clear that they both were enthusiastic about trying the gas apparently used by
Ferrari in its tyres, Mr de la Rosa's evidence to the WMSC was that he, on his
own, decided to explore with a Bridgestone engineer whether the McLaren team
should try this gas. He states that he had no other conversations with any other
specialist staff within McLaren. His evidence is that the Bridgestone engineer in
question doubted whether the gas would confer an advantage upon McLaren.
According to Mr de la Rosa, without further consultation with anyone else at
McLaren, and despite the fact that this had apparently been successfully used at
Ferrari, the idea was dropped and no actual attempt was made to test the gas in the tyres used by McLaren.
Also consider that, 'documents relating to the technical detail of the ferrari's, that were in couchlans possesion, were shown to ferrari
who agreed that the documents were 'roughly' accurate in detail.
1. Either they were exactly accurate, or, they were not.
2. Oh yes lets just take ferrari's word for it and not bother checking against a real car taken at random. Ferrari would NEVER tell a lie to gain
a racing advantage over its competitors.
I think that a GOOD lawyer with real bottle could drive an articulated lorry or two through it all.
Personally I can't see Alonso's tenure at Maclaren lasting past the last race of the season as HE is, according to the FIA document, the
main user and abuser of ANY information gleaned out of all this AND he gets of scot free.
That makes no sense. Why is Alonso the only beneficiary and not your new messiah, Hamilton?
quote:
Originally posted by andyps
quote:
Originally posted by locogeoff
My statement was made before the official announcement and based on evidence I had at the time, however on this evenings news there was reports of Alonso refering to using intellectual property of Ferrari (the use of gas mixtures for filling tyres) contained in the leaked document hence I would say the cheating accusation can still stand.
Having started to read the document myself I would draw your attention to sections 3.4, 3.13, and 3.18 as examples of the above.
[Edited on 14/9/07 by locogeoff]
My interpretation of this section is that they did not actually use the gas:
quote:
from the FIA document
3.16 Although the e-mail exchange between Mr. Alonso and Mr. de la Rosa makes
clear that they both were enthusiastic about trying the gas apparently used by
Ferrari in its tyres, Mr de la Rosa's evidence to the WMSC was that he, on his
own, decided to explore with a Bridgestone engineer whether the McLaren team
should try this gas. He states that he had no other conversations with any other
specialist staff within McLaren. His evidence is that the Bridgestone engineer in
question doubted whether the gas would confer an advantage upon McLaren.
According to Mr de la Rosa, without further consultation with anyone else at
McLaren, and despite the fact that this had apparently been successfully used at
Ferrari, the idea was dropped and no actual attempt was made to test the gas in the tyres used by McLaren.
If you can put a different interpretation on it, please explain.
I am sure discussing or considering could be construed as making use of the infromation, but that is a bit like saying that Ferrari had sponsorship
from Marlboro and that the money they provide would be useful for McLaren to have so therefore they have taken advantage of that information. In other
words, it certainly does not give a performance advantage.
for the points raised:
quote:
FIA
3.18 On 12 April 2007 at 12.25 Mr. de la Rosa wrote to Mr. Coughlan and asked “ can
you explain me as much as you can, Ferrari’s braking system with the [reference
to detailed technical information]? Are they adjusting from inside the cockpit…?”
3.19 After a number of exchanges about whether a description would be too
complicated to articulate by e-mail, Mr. Coughlan replies on 14 April 2007 at
14.40 with a technical description which purports to be a description of the
principles underpinning the Ferrari braking system. Ferrari have confirmed that
the description given is an accurate (though incomplete) description of the
principles of its braking system. Coughlan concludes with a statement that “we
are looking at something similar”. This latter statement strongly suggests that the
McLaren system was being worked on from a position of knowledge of the details
of the Ferrari system, which, even if the Ferrari system not being directly copied,
must be more advantageous to McLaren than designing a system without such
knowledge.
I have to say I feel there is no performance advantage in discussing the data in the case of the tyre gas or the balance of the car if no development
is driven by that discussion, but I believe in the case of the braking system that a significant development advantage would be made by having
knowledge of another design even if only to discount possible development routes.
I can only think that the FIAs decision to inflict the penalty was due to McLaren saying they haven't made use of the info when they clearly have
at least evaluated the information and are in a position to make possible use of the information in further development rather than the blatent
plagerising aspects of the ferrari design.
I agree as to why the FIA may have made the decision they did, but unless they also ban any employee of one team moving to another then it is a decision which cannot be held to elsewhere. It is possible, though unlikely, that McLaren may have employed Stepney had he left Ferrari, in which case, even without taking a dossier with him he would have taken all his knowledge, quite legally.
