Propane or lpg. Any considered running this instead of gas, only reason it has even crossed my mind is the 105 octane which would let me run 20lbs of boost without detonation. (well untill the head gastget blows)
Dale

There are some interesting characteristics about propane that make it an ideal engine fuel. First, propane is clean-burning, much more so than gasoline. Propane leaves no lead, varnish, or carbon deposits that cause the premature wearing of pistons, rings, valves, and spark plugs. The engine stays clean, free of carbon and sludge. This means less maintenance and an extended engine life.

Also, propane is all fuel. It doesn't require additives usually blended into some grades of gasoline. Even without additive boosters, propane's octane rating of 110 is equal to and, in most cases, higher than available gasoline.

Propane-fueled engines produce less air pollution than gasoline engines. Carbon monoxide emissions from engines using propane are 50 percent to 92 percent lower than emissions from gasoline-fueled engines. Hydrocarbon emissions are 30 percent to 62 percent lower.

So why isn't propane used as a transportation fuel more often? For one reason, it's not as conveniently available as gasoline. Second, an automobile engine has to be adjusted to use propane fuel, and the cost of converting an engine to use propane is often prohibitive. Third, there is a slight drop in miles per gallon when propane is used to fuel vehicles.

http://www.perr.com/tip6.html

[Edited on 10/6/04 by Terrapin_racing]

I run my Nissan Primera eGT on LPG.

With the installation like mine, I drop about 10% MPG and torque. Also, I've a 100 litre grenade, sorry, fuel cylinder in the boot and the system works on the basis that's the tanks pressurised and the fuel will find it's way to the lower pressure area (i.e. the inlet tract). This is passive fueling is all very well, but when you're nearing the end of a tank, fuel pressure can be sufficiently low for you to be left with 'mild suprise' as the power fades during that demon overtaking manoeuvre.

I've heard various things about the RON being higher, so the power drop would be down to the following reasons?:

1. Slower burning fuel. I doubt this. The car will still rev to 9000 rpm
2. Sh?tty, basic installation kits that are too generic for their own good.

One of the Megasquirt guys in the U.S. was running a MK2 RX-7 on propane ... http://www.6speed.org/rx7/propane/

Cheers,

Neil.

[Edited on 10/6/04 by Noodle]

Ive converted my moped to run on propane,the most important item in the conversion was a 1942 ex MOD frogman kit,this has 2 advantages;
1 With the fuel strapped on my back no one can nick my bike,although I do get some strange looks when nipping round Asda.

2 You are always popular at barbies.

Running on propane is vastly superior to my original idea of running on methane where I had loads of problems with the rectal probe coming out at speed.
The reason I switched to propane from methane was one morning after an evening of 10 pints of Pedigree and a Vindaloo I found myself on the Forth road bridge, this was a bit disconcerting as I'd only nipped down the paper shop for a packet of fags and a Mirror
Cheers,
Bob

[Edited on 10/6/04 by splitrivet]

It would make passing emssions testing alot easier and would not have to pay for a cat converter. Just not certain how it would work in a high pressure fuel injection system.
Dale

Well done Bob, most amusing.


Paul G

Bob - we like that! Toilet humour in it's lowest form...

dont water injection systems increase octane value and allow use of regular petrol.....


atb

steve

As I understand them, they just suppress detonation by lowering combustion temperature allowing higher boost pressures. They don't bring any more energy into the equation. Increases in power are a result of the higher attainable boost pressures.

Cheers,

Neil.

As some of you guys on this forum already know I converted my Saab 9000 to run on LPG 3 years ago. The best thing about it?................filling up at Morrisons for 27.8p / litre

The govenment have stated for years that LPG will be taxed as heavily as petrol if it catches on big time.


I can fill up anywhere for nothing. Its called a company fuel card. 100k over 4 years motoring, for just a little bit of tax


atb

steve

quote:

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Originally posted by paulbeyer
As some of you guys on this forum already know I converted my Saab 9000 to run on LPG 3 years ago. The best thing about it?................filling up at Morrisons for 27.8p / litre

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I had 32 company cars in a 10 year period and averaged about 80k miles a year. It damn near killed me. You can shove your company cars and fuel cards up your cinnamon ring I'll never do that again.

As far as the government is concerned they are under too much pressure to achieve their commitments to cleaning up the environment. LPG is one way they can be seen to be doing something positive. Sure the duty on LPG is going to increase over the years but it will be a long time coming before it gets any where near the price of unleaded or diesel so I'll enjoy the benefits while I can.

Noodle,

LPG tank pressure is only dependant on temperature and LPG composition as long as there is liquid LPG in the tank. What you're talking about is that vapour LPG gets inside the regulator, thus halting flow (and engine power)

The lower power is caused by the simple fact that on older systems there is a venturi in the intake system to mix the gas. Newer (injection) systems tend to have less than 5% power loss. There's just the fact that the fuel actually takes up more volume inside the combustion chamber, and thus leaving less room for air (and thus a smaller bang).

This can easily be overcome by running just a tad more ignition advance though....

As for boost: we run an audi TT on lpg during long distance races as 270bhp, no problems (maximum boost is around 20PSI on standard internals and gaskets!)

Sebastiaan

Used vegetable oil with a dash of kero seems to be the cheapest option these days (if you run a diesel )

I was behind an iveco truck the other day and swear I could smell cod 'n chips

Have any of you heard of someone running a 2.3l turbo ford? with injection-- I would not mind finding some info on one if its out there. Its the engine from the north american xr4ti.
Dale

quote:

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Originally posted by sebastiaan
Noodle,

LPG tank pressure is only dependant on temperature and LPG composition as long as there is liquid LPG in the tank. What you're talking about is that vapour LPG gets inside the regulator, thus halting flow (and engine power)

The lower power is caused by the simple fact that on older systems there is a venturi in the intake system to mix the gas. Newer (injection) systems tend to have less than 5% power loss. There's just the fact that the fuel actually takes up more volume inside the combustion chamber, and thus leaving less room for air (and thus a smaller bang).

This can easily be overcome by running just a tad more ignition advance though....

As for boost: we run an audi TT on lpg during long distance races as 270bhp, no problems (maximum boost is around 20PSI on standard internals and gaskets!)

Sebastiaan

---

Don't drive a diesel, you'll kill people!

My preffered "end of the road" setup for the indy would be a turbo'd CBR thou (bulletproof engine!) / blade on LPG. I'll probably end up with a turbo'd 1.6 pinto though.

LPG in a 7 makes sense to me, as there's room enough in the back for a reasonably sized tank, you've got simple fuel system and it's cheap as a bonus! SVA would be simpler too, as far as emissions go.

But maybe I just like being different....

there were listers on

http:/groups.yahoo.com/group/locost

that did.

also take a look on the north american list. just search on yahoo under locost.


as far as diesels are concerned, uk tax laws are positively forcing company car drivers to go that route.

I could have a 143 hp petrol 3 series for 280 a month, or a 150hp diesel for 175.

no brainer.

atb

steve

quote:

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Originally posted by Dale
Have any of you heard of someone running a 2.3l turbo ford? with injection-- I would not mind finding some info on one if its out there. Its the engine from the north american xr4ti.
Dale

---

its a shame really, cos its the 10 micron soot particles in diesel exhaust that are the real killers. these muppets should realise that the only 'green' way forward is to avoid cars altogether, which isnt practical. So they should accept that our society is on a crash course whatever we do. Too late to save us in my books.

My house mate works for Formula Palmer Audi as a mechanic at weekends. We were talking about Jonathan Palmer and how rich he was, and basically its because hes a good business man. Apparently they run their whole fleet of track day cars (the ones you go and drive for a day at bedford autodrome) on LPG, it saves them a silly amount of money. If they use lpg in these cars, which im sure includes caterhams and the JP1 (a sort of LMP) it must be ok for us locosters.

I keep telling ya 27.8p / litre makes sense

Long story but bear with me!!

During the fuel blockades a few years ago I was supposed to be going rallying in Ireland, and was stuck at my mate's house at kielder in Northumberland in my Capri 2.8i with 1/4 tank of fuel!! (We were getting the ferry from Pembroke in Wales!!!)

He had a Sierra 2.3 diesel estate with 2/3 of a tank, so we decided to drive it down the 240 miles or so to my house near Hinckley that evening and try and hatch a plan to get to the docks somehow!!

Got to mine with 1/4 of a tank left, rang another mate who we were to collect at Ludlow but his Pug 205 diesel was nearly empty so no siphoning opportunities!

Oh dear, no transport, thought about red diesel bought from the farm but we had seen loads of trucks etc getting stopped and dipped so decided against it!

BRAINWAVE!!! Mum and dad's heating system is oil fired, and it smells just like diesel, a quick phone call to a diesel engineer mate confirmed that diesels will run on this no problem, just need to add 2-3% engine oil as it is a "drier" fuel than diesel and can wear the fuel pump quicker if no oil is added. Did this, made up 75 litres, filled up the car to the brim and put one and a half 5 gallon drumfulls in the back and off we went, got to ireland, followed the rally around and back to northumberland on that lot!! No ill effects either and it passes the dip test cos heating oil is not dyed, and it cost 19p per litre!!

quote:

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I keep telling ya 27.8p / litre makes sense

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We have oil fired heating at home, and i always thought it was the same as red diesel to stop people using it in their cars. Looks red ish on the level gauge too.
Might have a diesel now, if its possible to use it.

Better have a look first!! The stuff we had was a yellowish tinge in the level tube, but smelt the same as diesel. Take a dip and have a look, it will be obvious if it's the red stuff. The stuff we had was very pale, almost clear, sort of pale urine colour!!

quote:

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Originally posted by Nick Davison

quote:

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I keep telling ya 27.8p / litre makes sense

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How do you get it that cheap, I can only go as low as 37.9p litre.

Nick

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almost all teh Hill Rally boys use LPG in their V8 screamers.

Having run a finish on a control and talked to The Simmonites sisters father in the past, they all reckon that there is no noticable drop in power except for at the very top end there is a slight drop...

quote:

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Better have a look first!! The stuff we had was a yellowish tinge in the level tube, but smelt the same as diesel. Take a dip and have a look, it will be obvious if it's the red stuff. The stuff we had was very pale, almost clear, sort of pale urine colour!!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Noodle

quote:

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Originally posted by Nick Davison

quote:

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I keep telling ya 27.8p / litre makes sense

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How do you get it that cheap, I can only go as low as 37.9p litre.

Nick

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I pay 30p at Hilton Services, just off junction 11 M6 towards Wolverhampton. The places that are non-traditional petrol stations are cheapest.

Cheers,

Neil.

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Just been to said LPG place to fill up at 30p.

They're converting a fleet of Peugeot vans to LPG and I asked the chap about the conversions. His Indian accent was so think I couldn't understand a word (apart from 'bloody'!). However, speaking to his mate, he showed me that vehicles built post-2000 now use a multi-point injector rail, rather than the single-injector upstream of the plenum that's fitted to my Nissan, and all vehicles from pre-2000.

The systems are bespoke for the vehicle. Pre-2000 systems are Italian and post-2000 are Dutch. They've never done a turbo-charged vehicle and won't do it unless a bespoke system comes along. This is a real shame as the ability to supress detonation due to it's high RON figure makes LPG attractive for over-boosted vehicles.

I did speak to a guy a couple of years ago operating out of somewhere in Gwynned who claimed to have converted an Escort Cosworth and a Skyline.

Cheers,

Neil.