I saw a website recently called "cyclone" or something like, where they'd stuck 2 R1 cylinder blocks onto a single crank to make a
320bhp 2litre V8. Awesome nutter loony etc & I'm gonna try & make one with a fabricated aluminium crackcase - job for 2 or 3 years hence.
I was thinking of using 2x 600cc engines to get a 1.2litre 210hp. Thing is though - this thing will rev to 14000 - can a bog standard gearbox take
that many revs.
Interesting project - one cylinder head has to run bacwards - anybody know if the cam lobes are symmetrical? or will I have to reverse the cam drive
somehow.
All pie in the sky dreaming - but just imagine the noise it would make.........
Cheers
Bob C
I think Ned posted a pic on here a year or so back of a V8 made from 2 bike engines.... perhaps you could u2u him about it...
he's been a bit rare lately - looks liek hols time!
atb
steve
I know that making it a V8 results in a compact engine, but making it a straight 8 may be easier.
I had an uncle that took two Indian 4 cylinder engines and merged them into a single straight 6! No blueprints, just the mind of a master machinist.
Hung the engine on a stretched Harley Davidson frame. What a smooth ride.
If you can read Italian, you can read about it at
http://www.ideahobby.it/dbasp-motoaz/MotoAZ.asp?id=01548&tab=TabB&src=
dave
found it - googled cyclone + V8 &there it was - based in poole, dorset.
I note from their website that they reverse the cam drive to one of the heads. It's doable but means gears which is a bit sad...
Cost - 2 600cc engines - not a lot, custom steel crank.... ouch! mate with tig welder - 6 pints of lager.
Inline takes the torque of 1 engine through the other which I don't like the sound of - mind you the big end journals size is fixed so I'll
have to look closely at the crank anyway.
So nobody's pushed 14k revs through an mt75 or type9 gearbox then.....
Bob
how would the electronics part of it work.....??
curious....
saw the engine a while back at a show..
awesome stuff...
15 k for the cyclone! Some where out on the web is a catervan having one fitted! They also have one in a seven roundbutt (Quantum) but the gear box
clutch was a nightmare.
As I see it, if you run with a flat plane 1342 crank all you have to do is have 2 sets of bike CDI units & all the carbs - bingo.
Or (bigger project) a motec or emerald ecu
I suppose it's fair enough that no-one has tried 14krpm into an escort gearbox... how could they?
cheers
Bob
£15k!!!! - should be able to pick up an old dfv for less than that.....
The cyclone is two hayabusa engines stuck together and creates about 350bhp. TTS do a super charger kit for the standard hayabusa engine (ie. not V8)
that takes it up to 500bhp....
Get the way I am talking, 1000bhp twin supercharger V8 hayabusa
.
Good luck finding a gearbox
Adam
i've thought about this in the past, but i couldnt think how there was room for 8 piston arms (big end is it?) on the crank. How do they get
round this? i always wanted a busa twin turbo, but maybe thats just a little excessive.
the site says its a 2 litre engine- and isnt the busa 1.3 litres?
the maths dont work....
atb
steve
quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
i've thought about this in the past, but i couldnt think how there was room for 8 piston arms (big end is it?) on the crank. How do they get round this? i always wanted a busa twin turbo, but maybe thats just a little excessive.
surely the easier option is to take two bike v4's and mate those together....
BMW's spring to mind as a good starting point, bullet proof in std form...... although i seem to recall not highly tunned.
2 VFR800s.
Adam
The engine is two Yamaha Thunder Ace top ends grafted onto a tricky set of crankcases..neat bit is the way the cams run as the blocks are back to back.......2.0ltr v8 screamer....very cool.
why vfr's.....Yamaha is the kiddie to have....ask that geezer with number 46 on the front!
Here are some photos from neds website:
quote:
Originally posted by stephen_gusterson
V engines (to my limited experience) have two con rods per crank pin. Therefore a v8 would have 4 big end crank pins, with two big end bearings / cranks on each. The big end crank surfaces would need to be wider.
yes, you got it
crank goes to conrod goes to piston
and each of the pair goes to a seperate 'bank' of cylinders.
Rescued attachment stockengine8cyl.jpg
They run two conrods per big end journal on the crank and offset the cylinder banks to make room for them. The cost of doing this on a custom bottom
end and crank must be astronomical.
[Edited on 30/7/04 by Peteff]
Getting a crank dug out of a big chunk of steel shouldn't be too bad, it's common practise for tuned/rally/race engines. For the custom
crankcase I planned to fabricate from ally plates tig welded up - there's some history for this approach, in fact TVR used a fabricated crancase
in their recent V12.
Plus remember I'm just shooting the breeze for the next couple of years on this - IF it looks practical I'll start building in 2006!
cheers
Bob
PS I still can't see why a normal gearbox should'nt be run at 2x speed - nothing will break, the main worry is lubrication - will all the
oil get thrown off????
wow - I've been promoted - now "senior builder" and 4 stars. And its all happened when I went off on one about making my own engine - -
the rewards of utter bullsh1te, it doesn't only help at work!
Bob C (senior)
Congratulations Bob!
bloody part timers...
guess how i got to this many!
I once considered building a V twin to put in a morgan three wheeler replica and intended to either get the crankcase cast or fabricate it from plate
with bolts and dowels.and use 2CV barrels and heads.However never got around to it as I started building a seven instead, maybe it could be my next
big project.
Surely it would be easier to make a billet crankcase, it would be stronger lighter and more stable than a welded fabrication .A welded crankase would
also have to be very carefully stress relived and machined to avoid distortion, as the tolerances involved are a maximum run out on the main bearing
housings of half a thou.
Maybe a primary reduction gear could be used to drive a car gearbox as in bike engines.
Paul.
quote:
Originally posted by Bob C
For the custom crankcase I planned to fabricate from ally plates tig welded up - there's some history for this approach, in fact TVR used a fabricated crancase in their recent V12.
Plus remember I'm just shooting the breeze for the next couple of years on this - IF it looks practical I'll start building in 2006!
cheers
Bob
PS I still can't see why a normal gearbox should'nt be run at 2x speed - nothing will break, the main worry is lubrication - will all the oil get thrown off????
Western Washington University in the US built a 554cc V8 based on two kawasaki 250cc heads and ran the timing chains off opposite ends of the crank. Their block was cnc'ed from solid (16 hours I think) and was structural, worth a google search. One other example used the yamaha heads with the central chain and just flipped the head. I would guess the cams are symetric, but a little poking around could confirm that. Seems the route to follow for the crank is a flat plane, two rods per throw which allows you to tune the exhausts as two 4-cylinders, kind of nice. Flat cranks used in V8 theoretically can produce some vibration problems, but it doesn't seem to have been much of a problem with the small displacement (tiny bob weight?) But I'm to lazy right now to do the sums. Frankly, I don't see a problem with a fabricated block as long as it was finish machined. Look at Ferrari F1 gearboxes Tig'ed out of titanium, beautiful and accurate <drooling>. Hope you try it, sound like a awesome project. Cheers!
It will cost you more than 15 grand to make a v8 yourself that works so why bother
[chong]
for the ride, man!
[/chong]
I think its possible to do it..
but not in the way you want to
I think you can't put all that power on the normal clutch/gear box.
to make a 8 cylinder i wouldn't place it in V vorm i would just put it in line...
Bike engines are short..soow i think it could fit..
but then you have the problem of the clutch and then the gearbox.
I think the project after allot of money will work..!!
and the car will run but it will no be practical because of the replacement of allot of components or you should also invest moeny in that
part...etc...
if you want 2 engines i suggest just put 2 unther the bonnet connect both whit a chain.
double all the things..clutch, gas, gear..
and go in that way.. you could use one way bearings to overcome rotation speed problems.. (if they resist the power..)
TKS
Thats it! 2 V-Max engines, joined in line, 280hp and 140ft/lb of torque mmmmmh
i]Originally posted by tks
to make a 8 cylinder i wouldn't place it in V vorm i would just put it in line...
Wow, definitely surrounded by optimists here aren't we? As we all know most great projects are not about the money but about the journey. Since we're on the Locost forum, it certainly makes no sense to try to dissuade someone from building something. Besides, the primary component that would need to be sent out is the crank. If he could do the block and send it out to be final machined, then build and intake and exhaust, it should be to huge of an issue. Not to belittle thousands of man hours put into a new engine, even using some pre-existing components, but I'd never be the one to knock someone for trying it. Cheers!
why bother joining the engines at the engine? Just jpin the transmissions (after the gearbox). IN autograss where you are all sick of hearing that I
race (!!!) They have been doing this for years!!!
Look at Chris Allanson's (Z-Cars) creations, like the twin engine Tiger's and Westfield's he has built, for less than is being talked
of for an engine!!!
I don't wholly agree with the idea of an engine foe the front and an engine for the back like his Tiger, but the Westfield used both engines to
drive a bespoke transfer box which drove the propshaft and was just rwd.
Loads and loads of twin Hayabusa/ZX9R/ZX12R/GSF1200/GSXR1100 cars in autograss class 10!!!
the glory is in the struggle! the whole idea is, IMHO, to make a badass v8 on one crank! linking them end to end may have the same effect but it is
definately cheating! If you successfully make one of these real v8s, you would be a workshop hero of the first order.
yes, I know where you are coming from and I agree with that sort of thinking, but the machining required would make the engine more expensive than
almost any of the alternatives!
Nive to be able to say " I made that" though!!
why build a V twin for a 3 wheeler when a honda CX500 engine is already that, AND has the convenience of shaft drive......
atb
steve
quote:
Originally posted by paulf
I once considered building a V twin to put in a morgan three wheeler replica and intended to either get the crankcase cast or fabricate it from plate with bolts and dowels.and use 2CV barrels and heads.However never got around to it as I started building a seven instead, maybe it could be my next big project.
Surely it would be easier to make a billet crankcase, it would be stronger lighter and more stable than a welded fabrication .A welded crankase would also have to be very carefully stress relived and machined to avoid distortion, as the tolerances involved are a maximum run out on the main bearing housings of half a thou.
Maybe a primary reduction gear could be used to drive a car gearbox as in bike engines.
Paul.
quote:
Originally posted by Bob C
For the custom crankcase I planned to fabricate from ally plates tig welded up - there's some history for this approach, in fact TVR used a fabricated crancase in their recent V12.
Plus remember I'm just shooting the breeze for the next couple of years on this - IF it looks practical I'll start building in 2006!
cheers
Bob
PS I still can't see why a normal gearbox should'nt be run at 2x speed - nothing will break, the main worry is lubrication - will all the oil get thrown off????
refering to the mention of the twin bike enginened tiger i think it was,
does anyone know why the bespoke transfer box costs £2500!
I have seen the pictures
it doesn't look that complicated unless the gears themselves are special?
as usual though i am happy to be proved wrong
P.S.
the idea of mating 2 bike engines into a v8 is a cracking fun idea, why the hell not so what about the expense let the people with the cash have a go
!
[Edited on 1/8/04 by liam.mccaffrey]
I never really liked the CX500 and wanted to have an aircooled engine to look more original, I could have used a Motoguzzi ,but the main reason was
to make it myself.I would have fitted it to a car gearbox.
Paul
I dont have as easy access to the required machinery now so will probably stick to building model engines.
Paul
quote:
Originally posted by stephen_gusterson
why build a V twin for a 3 wheeler when a honda CX500 engine is already that, AND has the convenience of shaft drive......
atb
steve
quote:
Originally posted by paulf
I once considered building a V twin to put in a morgan three wheeler replica and intended to either get the crankcase cast or fabricate it from plate with bolts and dowels.and use 2CV barrels and heads.However never got around to it as I started building a seven instead, maybe it could be my next big project.
Surely it would be easier to make a billet crankcase, it would be stronger lighter and more stable than a welded fabrication .A welded crankase would also have to be very carefully stress relived and machined to avoid distortion, as the tolerances involved are a maximum run out on the main bearing housings of half a thou.
Maybe a primary reduction gear could be used to drive a car gearbox as in bike engines.
Paul.
quote:
Originally posted by Bob C
For the custom crankcase I planned to fabricate from ally plates tig welded up - there's some history for this approach, in fact TVR used a fabricated crancase in their recent V12.
Plus remember I'm just shooting the breeze for the next couple of years on this - IF it looks practical I'll start building in 2006!
cheers
Bob
PS I still can't see why a normal gearbox should'nt be run at 2x speed - nothing will break, the main worry is lubrication - will all the oil get thrown off????
hi
some guy in germany has done it:
look at :
v8 bike engine
thought that some mp3's are on his site
i hope you knowledge of german is good
koen
I've mentioned this before, but Hart made a V8 from two FZR1000 Exup motors a few years ago.
They displayed it at one years Autosport show. I know because I won a bag o' crap for being the first person to spot it for what it was.
Never saw it used anywhere though.
Cheers,
Neil.
cheers Koen - stacks on that german link (I understand a tiny bit..)
Everyone seems to use yam donors - wonder why..
Bob
If John Britten could build this in his garage 15 years ago http://www.nzedge.com/heroes/britten.html , the world's first
carbon-fibre motorcycle with a home-built stressed member V-twin and p*ss all over Ducati at Daytona , then why can't you build your own
V-8?
[Edited on 3-8-04 by locost_bryan]
The yamaha motors are most likely used due to proven performance, the ability to have them in 5 valve if you wish and the center cam drive which makes things a bit more convienent (Don't have to run a chain off both ends of the crank or, alternatively come up with a machining intensive front cam adaptor for one head.) The block and crank are usually enough for people to worry about....not to mention intake, exhaust, ignition.....Cheers!