Well, i found a few metal shavings on the inlet front cam bearing last night and a tiny amount of rust on the exhaust cam lobes, also a tiny bit of white foam on the inside of the cam cover (exhaust side only) i put the rust and white foam (it was quite a small amount) down to condensation in the garage. and i decided i would do some further investigations on the oil system today.

i ran the car up to temperature before draining the oil, so the engine was running for around 30 mins.

i drained the oil and removed the filter, cut it open and didnt find too much rubbish, if anything. i then inspected the oil and found it almost swimming with minute metal particles.... i was not that worried as you could not even feel them if you rubbed the oil between your fingers, i assummed that would be from the piston rings bedding in and that kind of thing, (bearing in mind this is the first oil change ive done on the engine which is a brand new 2.0 zetec from gbsc.

anyway, i then whipped the scholar engines low line sump off and began to clean the muck from the bottom and too my horror i found these sat lurking in the bottom of the sump.










so i then whipped off the cam cover again and found that there was a bit more foam on the inside than there was last night (the engine had just been running bear in mind)

here are a few pics to show what i found- im not sure if is normal to see a small amount of foam ive seen cars with blown gaskets which are much much worse and the oil that came out when i drained the engine was not emulsified atall...







after seeing this im begining to think something has gone tits up big time on the engine....so i removed the windage tray and inspected (what i could see) of the crank bearing housings, webs and con rods, nothing looks out of place and also the fragments have a rough casting marks and are a lighter colour to the metal on the underside of the engine...

so really i dont know where to go from here...im hoping the bits have somehow come loose from the sump as it is modified, but i dont really see how. i just cant think where they would have come from, but ive never seen a zetec internally so i dont know. the casting marks make me think either an inlet or exhaust port has cracked/come apart possibly but again i dont see how the engine would be running if that had happened....

please any ideas/theorys would be much welcomed. i dont really want to mess about with this engine at the moment. if its goosed i will be ordering another new one pronto from GBSC. but obviously i odnt want to go spending 900 if i dont really realy have too. HELP!!

[Edited on 14/1/12 by mcramsay]

Your pics dont appear to work

They do now!

[Edited on 14/1/12 by steve m]

sorry it got a bit funny with me...should be working now!

I have not got a clue what those two bits are, they do not look like any engine bits ive ever seen

Some where in the engine , some bolts were too long and have broken part of the casing of the engine, this has 'popped' the ends off the engine casting. Most likelt engine mounts, check their first.

i will go and check that now... i take it if i find that is the case then the damage is terminal?

Looks like a couple of bolts that are too long have punched there way through and broke off the the bits of metal.
Steve.

EDIT, cock, too slow again.
Agree with above
Steve

[Edited on 14/1/12 by stevec]

quote:

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Originally posted by loggyboy
Some where in the engine , some bolts were too long and have broken part of the casing of the engine, this has 'popped' the ends off the engine casting. Most likelt engine mounts, check their first.

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It's not neccesarily terminal, depends where the bolts are, and they essentially turn from dry bolts to wet bolts, a copper washer under the bolt head should keep it sealed as long as it isn't in critical part of the engine.

quote:

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Originally posted by mcramsay
i will go and check that now... i take it if i find that is the case then the damage is terminal?

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looks like i might be forking out for a new engine... IF this is the case could this explain why im getting white froth at the oil filler cap?

If it was me i would clean out the sump, pick up pipe etc. once the offending bolt holes are found, use plenty of thread lock on those bolts to seal them. Refil the oil and filter, maybe run an engine flush, change the oil and filter once more after a 50 miles or so.

A bit of chemi-metal could be used as well to seal the holes.

I'd be amazed if the engine is scrap, it's unlikely to have any adverse effect and not likely to explain the white froth on the filler cap which is just a little bit of condensation.

Just find where the studs have popped through and satisfy yourself that it's not critical. Worst case is you can repair the holes with weld but this is not likely to be necessary.

Totaly agree that it is very unlikely to be a scrap engine job, and that amount of foam in the rocker cover is just from condensation, I get a lot more than that in mine after the engine has been standing for the winter. HTH Ray

Buy some cheapo oil from Asda etc, oil change and run it for a few hours. Drain and ditch the oil, have a rummage with a magnet see what you pick up. Diesel engine oil has lots of detergent, seen it used on sludged up engines as a pre oil change flush.


A magnetic sump plug might help you.



Dont give up on the engine yet, its not dead.

well, ive checked the crank case and cannot find any evidence of splits/bolts that are too long, its completley normal. no engine mounting bolts showing!

having a closer look at the fragments and looking at the ally head i would say im 90% sure thats where they have come from, the however the only stock bolts i have removed from the head are the cam cover bolts, exhaust/inlet studs and bolts and the thermostat housing to fit the water rail. it cant be the thermostat bolts, they would not have made it into the oil system, if they had i would have more prominent evidence!

so im thinking it can only be the inlet or exhaust. and looking at the curve and profile of the fragment this could could be a viable theory...i will take the inlet and exhaust off tomorrow and see what i find. if i dont find anything i will be putting everything back together, putting my fingers in my ears and singing "lalalala" hopefully the engine will pass an emission test and i can drive it until it goes bang and then swap it.

Sure look like Pop Rivet remains to me.
But then what in hell would have been in that engine that was held on by pop rivets ? a diy Windage tray?? Some bodged oil catch can gizmo?

[Edited on 14/1/12 by Bare]

I would show these pictures to GBS, if they supplied you a new engine and this does lead to problems, they must have some sort of warranty. Did they also supply the engine mount bolts? I would talk to them and see what they make of it. DONT scrap the engine.

they do look like pop rivets! but definatley are not, you can see where the hole has been pilot drilled, so it is definatley the end of a tapped hole.

I would be very surprised if bits that size could get from the top of the engine into the sump, the oil returns just arn't big enough. There is no way any parts from the inlet or exhaust could get into the sump without going via the cylinders and that could not happen. Are the fragments magnetic i.e. are they iron or alloy.

Bit worrying if there is a noticable metallic particles in the oil. Rings don't normally loose metal as they bed in and bearings don't either.

Are you sure the bits were not in the sump when you fitted it, did you carefully clean and prep the sump after it had been delivered, its not unknown for rogue bits to get in during the packing process, they can be lurking in the packing material or box.

Are they magnetic? If yes then its block, if not then its head.

No need to scrap, plenty of engines have holes drilled and tapped all the way through to the water jacket, RV8 for instance, you just apply some sealant to the threads of the bolt, hylomar blue for instance

Regards Mark

i am 100% sure the parts were not in the sump when it was fitted. i would not have a leg to stand on with GBSC. i bought the engine (and kit from them) 2.5 years ago. (and ive still not finished!!!) the engine has only ever idled in the garage, never moved the car or had any load on it.

i mean ive removed the inlet manifold and fitted throttle bodies, ive removed the thermostat and fitted the raceline water rail, and ive removed the stock exhaust manifold and fitted a GBSC manifold. also used a few head bolts for an alternator mounting bracket (will be checking that also) so as for GBSC they will say the warranty is invalidated as ive changed the engine from the way it was sold. changed the sump also on it....

i personally dont see how these bits could have ended up in the sump, but i am sure they were not there when i put the sump on.. ive done the old magnetic test and they didnt budge...they are definatley not cast iron.

Those bits are too big to have come from inside the head and past the valves, you would of heard when they did. Could they be non ferrous and from the sump casting ? Does your sump have any studs etc that could of been overtightened. Hows the oil pump mounted in the block? Scabs from an over tightened oil pump strainer, ie alloy


Without going back over the thread, is your sump off or did these come out in the oil drain ?



Im about to suggest the sump comes off for a peek.

the bits look like cutting disks off a dremel

I found these in the sump, once it was removed, I thoroughly checked the sump and cannot find anything these parts would have come from, also the casting marks on the items do look identical to the rough castings on the non polished parts of the zetec head, but I do agree I cannot think how items that large would get down to the sump, I think I will do about more investigating tomorrow and see if I can find the guilty holes. If not I will box up and forget about it until it gets to the point that it is an issue

quote:

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Originally posted by MikeFellows
the bits look like cutting disks off a dremel

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thats defo caused by bolts that are too long. i have done exactly the same thing on a fiat block when i was a lot younger. just clean out the sump and check for fragments under the cam cover. it will be totally fine.

quote:

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Originally posted by AndyGT

quote:

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Originally posted by MikeFellows
the bits look like cutting disks off a dremel

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+1


Do you have any enemies? People you share a garage with? Now or over the past since you've had the engine?

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Don't know zetec heads very well but it is possible on most heads for bits to get into the crankcase via the head oil drains, which are pretty big. If a bit had popped off in the oilway in the head and got washed down the oil drain with returning oil. I'd look very carefully at the head

quote:

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Originally posted by stevec

quote:

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Originally posted by AndyGT

quote:

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Originally posted by MikeFellows
the bits look like cutting disks off a dremel

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+1

Do you have any enemies? People you share a garage with? Now or over the past since you've had the engine?

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Are you taking the piss?

Steve

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Its gotta be bolts to long pushing the casting of into the sump. Again is it alloy or cast iron ( head or block) it looks like iron in the pic and probably from a 6mm bolt scaling it agaianst your finger. ( unless you've got fingers like an ape LOL)

I think the first thing to do is decide what the bits are made from as already suggested. If they are cast iron then they come from the block , if ally from the head. Remove each bolt that you have disturbed one at a time and probe /measure to the bottom of the hole, any that have no bottom are likely to be the home of the bits and can be sorted out accordingly. Has the engine lost any coolant , if not then the cause of the white oil is likely to be condensation or cheap oil.

Do any of the manifold studs or bolts break into an oilway in the head ? Take a few out and poke a welding wire down to see how far they go. If the engine runs well I wouldn't be worrying too much about it. You'll get the mayo in any engine that runs for short periods without getting really hot no matter what oil you put in it.

[Edited on 15/1/12 by Peteff]

I'd also say that the bits of metal in the sump have more than likely come from the same area/source.I'd doubt the engine is scrap but I would give everything a good flush out a couple of times for peace of mind.

No parts in the cylinder head have a dark finish as shown in the photo's, the head is a totally natural alloy finish inside and out. If they are magnetic they are from the cast iron block but internally that has an as cast finish from memory.

My money is still on a couple of bits from elsewhere finding their way in somehow when the sump was off. Still don't think the oil returns are big enough to allow bits that big to get from the cam area into the sump plus they would likely cause cam/follower damage before finding their way down.

the dark finish in the photos is due to the lighting, they are bright alloy, i have run a magnet over the particles and they are not magnetic which points to the cylinder head.

there is no way on earth i fitted the sump with the metal fragments in there already. i spent hours cleaning it, its something i would have instantly seen.

im going to start removing bolts one by one and try to find the offending holes, then i will seal up said holes and box everything back up and run the engine untill it decides its time for a piston to leave the block.

Be careful sealing any holes. As said if its into an oilway and you inject sealer/gunk of any kind you may do more damage than good.

well i have found the problem,

Basically its on the top row of exhaust manifold to cylinder head fixing bolts, for what ever reason 3 out of 4 bolts along the top have punctured into the cylinder head. breaking the casting directly aside the valve spring.

basically if you look through the exhaust manifold bolt holes on the cylinder head you can see one of the exhaust valve springs through the holes, on cylinders 2, 3, and 4.

looking in from the other side of the head you can just see behind the valve spring and there is evidence of small chunks of casting missing, although its really really hard to see, but you can just make out some swarf and ragged edges.

the problem i have now is obviously exhaust gases passing into the cylinder head oil system (technically shouldn't happen if the gasket is holding) / oil leaking out the bolts on the exhaust. will normal thread sealant handle exhaust temperatures?

also 3 holes have evidence of the casting breaking off, however i have only found 2 bits of casting?

one last thing, how the hell did the casting chunks manage to get from the cylinder head to the sump without casing damage?

well at least you've found the problem and IMHO it's not an engine killer. So studlock the threads of the studs and find that last missing bit ( which may have been removed at the engine build stage mind if it had been seen). On the pluss side if its not floating about the head area then its unlikely to do any damage farther down as it will be on the sump/pickup side which is well enough filtered.

yeah im going to go and have a good look for it now, if its going to be anywhere it might be some where near the oil return, who knows i will spend some time looking. at least i found the issue. made a rubbish weekend a little bit better, at least its not new engine time.