Hello All

I bought Ned's project a while ago with an oil pressure problem.

I was gambling on it being the pressure relief valve sticking and finally got around to having a look at it today.

I used the info from posts on here to get it out - and boy was it stuck !!

I used the cut down 4mm allen key trick with a pair of mole grips to get it out and still had to lever the grips with a screw driver - so I think it's safe to say it was stuck !

Looking at it I would say it's way past it's sell by date - I'm assuming this one is the SBD plastic one ? Is the original metal ?


PRValve


PRValve2

You can see metal imbedded in the surface if you look closely so won't be using this one again.

I've run my finger around the bore on the pump and can't feel any scoring, but couldn't inspect properly due to the engine being in the car - I may end up buying an endoscope after all.

So, do I ;

1) buy a new oil pump and valve ?
2) buy a new metal valve and keep the original pump ?
3) buy an new SBD nylon valve and keep the original pump ?
4) make my own valve and get it PTFE coated - the SBD is £60 which quite frankly is extortionate given the size of it !

The current pump is fitted with the uprated steel oil pump gear - I assume this could be transferred to a new pump ?

I assume the valve is meant to be a sliding fit in the bore ? Once I got this one out it didn't want to go back in !

Any advice or opinion gratefully received, Ben has been a big help already.

Cheers

Rob

[Edited on 10/6/12 by Wheels244]

To be honest if its stuck as bad as you say then a new pump for sure, they arent dear from Auotvaux and you can put the steel gear back in.

The SBD relief valve is very dear but its an industry standard part now in race engines so i went for one just to be safe

That is a nylon one i think... Mine was red. Is it plastic or metal? Standard one is metal.

Yes, red plastic.

It doesn't look particularly well machined - I assume the marks around it are from turning as opposed to the scores along it from where the metal bits have inbedded.

I can't help thinking I could machine something better, a hell of a lot cheaper. Has anyone got an old standard metal one for me to get accurate dimensions from ?

Any idea of the cost of a new pump ? I'm leaning towards a new one and transfer the uprated gear over.

What are they like to fit ?

Thanks

Rob

Easy enough to fit, although it means taking the cambelt off and the rediculously tight crank bolt !!!

If its plastic its an expensive nylon one, although i've not heard of them getting in that sort of state?

I've got a spare pump (as per email) although not sure if its early or late. Can get the release valve out of it tho and send it to you....

Thanks Ben

If you could post me the standard one that would be great.
If I do decide to machine one, I will do you one as well if you like by way of thanks.

I've looked on the Autovax website, but it doesn't list a pump under the XE section - could someone point me to the right bit please.

I was going to change the cambelt anyway for piece of mind - it's only been used on a rolling road session but it is about 5 years old - unless you think it would be ok to continue use - do they get affected by age ?

I've just bought a mains electric impact gun 450Nm torque, nearly twice that of my battery one, so the crankbolt will be a good test for it.

I'll dig out this week and get it off to you Rob....

If you phone Autovaux they will sort you a pump out, had quite abit off them over the years and they've always been very good
The oil pressure releif valve bore of the oil pump tends to score up with crud and is always worth checking
This is the reason its worth making sure the inside of the sump is ultra clean
Check the condition of the cam belt pulleys if replacing the belt, After 5 years its worth changing the belt
Worth considering going 'solid' non adjustable pulleys and tensioning the belt off the water pump as it has been known for the spring on the cam belt tensioner pulley to break

The crank pulley bolt is famous for being tight
Worth fitting a new bolt imho


My old one showing the 'solid' pulley layout and belt tensioned off the water pump

Robs got an early engine do should already have the metal tensioners etc.

Having had a lot of problem along these lines, tried the nylon valve, it also sticks! Eventually bought a new pump, with standard valve (steel) and never had any problems since. Replace your pump. Forget the stupid nylon valve. Don't forget to check your pick up pipe gauze isn't holed - small particles in the oil jam the pressure relief valve.

Thanks Perksy

Ned had a solid eccentric tensioner made and the rest is steel so should be ok.
Pulleys should be fine - vernier and only ever run properly on a days dyno session so in effect they're still new.



Engine


What's the correct tension to put on the new belt ?
I'll get a new crankshaft bolt as well.

I will order a new pump tomorrow, does it come complete with valve, spring etc or do they have to be ordered separate ?

I assume it's a sump off job to access the pick up pipe to the back of the pump ?

Any other top tips for fitting - a blow by blow account would be useful if anyones got one ?

Steve - I'll probably use the standard valve that comes with the pump initially, but I'll look at the one Ben is sending me and may consider machining my own nylon one - but to a better standard ( I don't mean that to sound big headed ).

Will Autovaux be a able to ID my engine from the engine number and provide proof of for the IVA ?

Can you guess I've not played with a Red Top before

Cam belt tension is 90 degrees on longest run with moderate finger & thumb force or 45 degrees with moderate force between the camshaft pulleys

New pump will come complete

Not sure Autovaux will be able to help with the engine dating letter, that's usually Vauxhall and they'll charge you for that

Sump off to check the oil pick up
Make sure you fit the 'O' ring on the mating face where the oil pick up bolts to body of the oil pump

Give the inside of the sump a real good clean
New sump gasket from Autovaux

Loads of info on the XE including torque wrench settings on the SBD wexsite

[Edited on 10/6/12 by perksy]

Engine date is on side of the engine, but that's probably not sufficient for IVA - I had a photocopy of the V5 from the donor for mine.

Look at the bottom LHS of your engine - the date of cast (6 digits mine was 05 06 90) - is just below the three engine mount bolts. You can almost make it out in this pic....

Fitting a new pump pretty much requires the sump to be removed anyway. Removing the sprocket bolt isn't easy, but I had more of a problem removing the spacer behind it.


[Edited on 10/6/12 by stevegough]

I don't suppose you've still got the photocopy have you Steve

quote:

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Originally posted by Wheels244
I don't suppose you've still got the photocopy have you Steve

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quote:

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Originally posted by stevegough

quote:

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Originally posted by Wheels244
I don't suppose you've still got the photocopy have you Steve

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I think so, but its not a lot of use to you as the engine number would have to match!!

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I'm hoping - work permitting - to get the pump ordered today.

When fitting, does it require packing with Vaseline to assist with initial priming ? Or is there another method for this style of pump?
Or will it self prime ?

Order list:

Oil pump complete with new valve
Pump gasket
New crank bolt

Do I need a new O ring for the pick up tube ?
It's got a rubber sump gasket fitted - what's the opinion on this being reused ?

What's the best oil to use bearing in mind it's had a full engine rebuild and hasn't been used other than on the rollers for a set up day ?

quote:

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Originally posted by Wheels244
I'm hoping - work permitting - to get the pump ordered today.

When fitting, does it require packing with Vaseline to assist with initial priming ? Or is there another method for this style of pump?
Or will it self prime ?

Order list:

Oil pump complete with new valve
Pump gasket
New crank bolt

Do I need a new O ring for the pick up tube ?
It's got a rubber sump gasket fitted - what's the opinion on this being reused ?

What's the best oil to use bearing in mind it's had a full engine rebuild and hasn't been used other than on the rollers for a set up day ?

---

Well, rang Autovaux to order the bits and as said previously they were very helpful.

But it wasn't good news

I gave Craig, the guy I dealt with my engine number and he told me it was an early engine - and they don't have the oil pumps for them anymore, well they do have one make 'Autopumps' which he said he wouldn't sleep at night if he knew it was going into a tuned engine - refreshingly honest !

He said the 'Autopump' pump would be ok for a standard engine but this doesn't solve my problem of a replacement pump.

Price for the other bits for anyone looking

Oil pump Gasket = £2.87
Crank Bolt = £8.88
Oil pump O ring = £10.93 ( seems expensive for an O ring )

Part number for Oil Pump = 90325075

They did have an OE pump for a later engine - at £250

Any ideas ?
Anyone got a known decent one for sale ?
Buy or make a new relief valve and use existing pump ?

Cheers

Rob

try these always been good for me
dont see a match for your part no


http://www.vauxhall-car-parts.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_Calibra_Oil_Pumps___Oil_Sumps.html


p.s
slightly off topic , and promted by the block pic earlier in thread

why if like me you need proof of engine age do we have to pay vauxhall £60

if the age is cast in the block

Just spoke to SBD - again very helpful.

Apparently the red plastic valve that I took out must be a copy - he said theirs are white nylon.

They can supply OE pump for £228 + Vat

I really would like an engine attached to it for that money

Has anyone dry sumped one and if so was it difficult ? reliable ? expensive ?

Cheers

Rob

[Edited on 15/6/12 by Wheels244]

[Edited on 15/6/12 by Wheels244]

Gawd the standard pumps have gone up


There are others out there to supply the oil pump, so a search on Google might be a way forward
QED are another worth contacting and it might be worth trying the local engine builders/re-con engine suppliers

*If* this is going to be a good spec' XE and you will doing some track days then Dry sumping is a very good insurance policy
It ain't cheap though and you'll be over a grand before you know it (had the SBD (Pace) Dry sump set-up on mine)

Rob, I'll check in the morning with Vauxhall as I have trade club with them and get healthy discounts

quote:

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Originally posted by Ben_Copeland
Rob, I'll check in the morning with Vauxhall as I have trade club with them and get healthy discounts

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Unfortunately not.... More expensive.

BUT............


You can fit a late pump which has better internals etc. because you haven't got a backing plate.

You can also get a OE replacement one off eBay (seller:trechii) who I used for most of the bits for mine. Early one is £60 odd.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ben_Copeland
Unfortunately not.... More expensive.

BUT............


You can fit a late pump which has better internals etc. because you haven't got a backing plate.

You can also get a OE replacement one off eBay (seller:trechii) who I used for most of the bits for mine. Early one is £60 odd.

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quote:

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Originally posted by perksy
Gawd the standard pumps have gone up


There are others out there to supply the oil pump, so a search on Google might be a way forward
QED are another worth contacting and it might be worth trying the local engine builders/re-con engine suppliers

*If* this is going to be a good spec' XE and you will doing some track days then Dry sumping is a very good insurance policy
It ain't cheap though and you'll be over a grand before you know it (had the SBD (Pace) Dry sump set-up on mine)

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First link. Its got 20xe cavalier in the list of compats.

Checked with Vauxhall your number is definately early engine which we knew anyway

I emailed you the link to correct auction.

Thanks Ben, much appreciated.

What's your view on dry sumping ?
I don't want to have to go through this too often or even worse, lose oil pressure when giving it some and kiss goodbye to the engine.

quote:

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Originally posted by Wheels244
Thanks Ben, much appreciated.

What's your view on dry sumping ?
I don't want to have to go through this too often or even worse, lose oil pressure when giving it some and kiss goodbye to the engine.

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Westfield wet sump


westfield_sump_2

Same as mine. If you do change I'll buy your sump as mine has been welded (cracked) before

Even though it's a shallow pan it is still rather close to the road - that's another reason me for considering dry sumping.

Did you ground yours to cause the crack ?

I didn't. It's Westfield owner did. I got bottom end with sump.

Just to add a few comments - I fitted a QED supplied pump, and the oil pressure has been perfect ever since - just to re-iterate, I had lots of oil pressure problems leading up to this. Not 100% certain this is the one for yours, though.

QED pump

Also, 'nige' asked about why do you need the V5 if the date is cast into the block - the answer is that the IVA inspector requires written proof (that wording is in the IVA manual) of the age of the engine.

Hence, basically because 'THEY' say so.

When you are talking about your shopping list - I have a vague recollection that I had to replace my front crankshaft oil seal when I replaced the pump, but I can't remember if the reason was that it was leaking, (which it was) or if you have to replace it when you replace the pump? I'm sure Ben will enlighten us soon.

What sort of power is yours kicking out Steve ?

Consensus from firms I've spoken to so far say non OE pumps are ok for standardish engines but stick with OE for tuned ones.

With the work that's been done on my engine I think you may see tears if I blow it up

It's one of those seals that you might as well do while it's off, bastard if it leaks after.

sorry, completely standard. 150bhp - but its enough for me! Maybe you'd better get a quality one?

quote:

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Originally posted by stevegough
sorry, completely standard. 150bhp - but its enough for me! Maybe you'd better get a quality one?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ben_Copeland
It's one of those seals that you might as well do while it's off, bastard if it leaks after.

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Not sure, suppose it's something to ask when buying.

Front crank oil seals are usually ok (should come with the new pump)
It's the Rear crank seals that are famous for leaking on the XE

As for the dry sump question, aswell as the sump you would need the tank, pump,modified crank pulley, hoses & fittings etc and that will probably come to around £750 ish
Secondhand would be cheaper *If* you can source the bits

Vauxhall C20XE Dry sump system kit

Vauxhall C20XE Dry sump system kit | eBay

Not cheap £1000+
Parts you will need on top
remote oil filter
oil tank
pipe work
oil cooler if used
catch tank if used

[Edited on 16/6/12 by Ben_Copeland]

Well, I bit the bullet and bought a new pump from the supplier on eBay - advert stated its OE - It isn't !

"We have over 35 years experience in the motor trade all our products are from OE Manufacturers. "

Check out the pics.



Autopump

Clearly an Autopumps one - exactly the one that Autovaux said not to put in a tuned engine.



Oil pump front



Oil Pump Rear


So what's the consensus ?

Will it be ok with the uprated steel gear that I will transfer out of my old pump ? Is this the only weak link in the pump or is there something else ?

or

Return it and get shafted for £250 for an OE one?

or

Sell a kidney and dry sump it ?

[Edited on 23/6/12 by Wheels244]

[Edited on 23/6/12 by Wheels244]

Oh dear, thats a bit of a let down....

Why did autovaux say they were no good?

They said they're ok in standard engines, but he wouldn't put one in a tuned engine - he didn't elaborate why, just said they're not up to use in a tuned engine.

I've Googled myself stupid and they don't get a good write up in the boy racer world of fitting red tops in tin tops - or are these just the people that haven't put their engines together properly moaning ?

Well, at the end of the day, an oil pump supplies oil at high pressure - whether in a tuned or standard engine - just like a car gets you from A to B - whether its a Rolls or a Kia Picanto. What the hell am I trying to say here?
I dunno.
Your call I guess.

I suppose Steve I'm waiting for someone to tell me to stop being a fanny and get it fitted.

And, if it was a standard engine I would, but the engine has been fully rebuilt to high standard and good spec using all new parts - I would hate to munch it through lack of oil pressure.

I used to be indecisive - but now I've changed my mind !!

It seems it's the gears that are the weak link, which you've got stronger ones anyway. Plus the SBD relief valve. You should be good.

The standard pump has 2 issues on a performance engine, The gears can break uo and the oil pressure releif valve can stick
There's plenty of XE's out there with big power engines running a normal oil pump with modified gears and pressure releif valve

Dry sumping is the answer *if* you want to spend the money as it provides an insurance policy, then all you need to worry about is a stone getting to the dry sump pump belt

Holy thread resurrection Batman !!

I can't believe it's taken me a year to get around to doing this ! I need to retire !!

I've just rebuilt the OE pump and bit the bullet and bought the SBD nylon valve.

Have I used enough Vaseline to help prime the pump ? - Craig at SBD said not to pack it fully.

I'll refit it tomorrow, sump is 100% clean, I'll fit a new cambelt and replace all of the fuel lines that have started to degrade.

Then - it's start up time - fingers crossed.

When you are kit building, nobody puts you on a time limit!

Glad to see you have picked your spanners up again and not giving up.

Best of luck - get it sorted then get out and enjoy this weather!

quote:

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Originally posted by stevegough
When you are kit building, nobody puts you on a time limit!

Glad to see you have picked your spanners up again and not giving up.

Best of luck - get it sorted then get out and enjoy this weather!

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Having put it all back together - I got to thinking about the windage tray - it didn't and doesn't have one fitted.

It's fitted with a SBD Westfield sump with baffle plate.

So, what's the consensus - does it need one ?

I've Googled and there varying opinions - some say it robs a few bhp not having one ( I could live with that ) others say there is potential for the oil level to be adversely affected by the oil vapour swirling around.

Don't want to take it off again unless I have to.

Rob