Tried EVERYTHING:

All earths undone, filed, wire brushed and replaced

Starter motor stripped bushes and bearings replaced

Starter motor leads stripped and re-crimped and soldered

crank sensor replaced

Ht leads checked

4 month old battery checked and ok

new spark plugs

ignition coil replaced

2:0 litre Zetec, twin 45mm Dellortos.

There just doesn't seem enough power to turn the engine over, it seems like the engine is flooding, small puffs of black smoke from the exhaust and the battery drains and runs out of power.

I took the car for a rolling road tune up last week and once the car starts its running really sweetly

It starts up fine with a jump start.

ITS DRIVING ME NUTS!

HEEEEEELP!

Try a different battery? Sounds to me if it starts with a jump, then runs fine that the battery hasn't got the grunt to do the job.

I suppose thats my next move, thanks.

quote:

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Originally posted by lordbenny
Tried EVERYTHING:

All earths undone, filed, wire brushed and replaced

Starter motor stripped bushes and bearings replaced

Starter motor leads stripped and re-crimped and soldered

crank sensor replaced

Ht leads checked

4 month old battery checked and ok

new spark plugs

ignition coil replaced

2:0 litre Zetec, twin 45mm Dellortos.

There just doesn't seem enough power to turn the engine over, it seems like the engine is flooding, small puffs of black smoke from the exhaust and the battery drains and runs out of power.

I took the car for a rolling road tune up last week and once the car starts its running really sweetly

It starts up fine with a jump start.

ITS DRIVING ME NUTS!

HEEEEEELP!

---

Sounds like it could be a timing issue the tuner may have altered this to give peak power. I remember this being a problem when turning the distributor slightly too much the car ran fine and would start up when warm but appears very tight when cold

One of the reasons I took it to the rolling road (Sanspeed, Bexleyheath) was to solve the starting problem. It had the starting problem before the rolling road tune.

Peter Sansom has been tuning carbs for over 40 years....he knows what he's doing so I really dont think its a timing issue.

I had the battery checked last week and I was told it was ok.

They told me that they thought it was an electrical issue but could take a while to source the problem but I didnt have the time or money to leave the car with them for what could be days!


[Edited on 26/10/12 by lordbenny]

It could be the starter or solenoid drawing too much current, your post makes the problem to appear to have started after the tuning.

Another consideration could be if its a silvertop is it the DOHC starter as these are different to the pinto ones, also is the engine a silvertop zetec if so did you have the sump modified, if do did you modify the side of the sump as it needs a recess creating if this isn't done the starter sits at an angle causing it to be tight on the ring gear on the flywheel

If it starts on jump leads onto another battery it can only be a faulty battery.

Most experienced old school mechanics would have diagnosed it by just hearing the engine turn over.

The facts are
(1) The car starts with a jump.
(2) The battery is new & tests (I presume it was a high load volts drop test) OK
(3) The fact is you have checked all "electrical issues"
(4) The starter struggles against the engine which produces puffs of black smoke

Only one conclusion too much advance at low RPM.

You can do a very simple test by putting a voltmeter across the battery disconnecting the coil pack and the fuel pump then try cranking the engine over, cranking voltage should be more than 9 volts. The actual cranking voltage depends on the cca rating of the battery usually expect more than 10v. If the engine cranks at a reasonable speed then you have proof the ignition is over advanced.

[Edited on 26/10/12 by britishtrident]

I've had V8 rovers that do this, stick on a modern starter motor resolves it.

Doubling the battery compensates.

quote:

---

Originally posted by britishtrident
Most experienced old school mechanics would have diagnosed it by just hearing the engine turn over.

The facts are
(1) The car starts with a jump.
(2) The battery is new & tests (I presume it was a high load volts drop test) OK
(3) The fact is you have checked all "electrical issues"
(4) The starter struggles against the engine which produces puffs of black smoke

Only one conclusion too much advance at low RPM.

You can do a very simple test by putting a voltmeter across the battery disconnecting the coil pack and the fuel pump then try cranking the engine over, cranking voltage should be more than 9 volts. The actual cranking voltage depends on the cca rating of the battery usually expect more than 10v. If the engine cranks at a reasonable speed then you have proof the ignition is over advanced.

---

My xflow does exactly the same, and on mine it is deffo the ignition timing to advanced
retarding the ign a tad, results in the car starting fine

Steve

Are you jumpstarting off a running motor or just another battery? The extra volts from a running alternator would make a big difference and maybe lead you to wrongly blame your battery.

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoelP
Are you jumpstarting off a running motor or just another battery? The extra volts from a running alternator would make a big difference and maybe lead you to wrongly blame your battery.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lordbenny

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoelP
Are you jumpstarting off a running motor or just another battery? The extra volts from a running alternator would make a big difference and maybe lead you to wrongly blame your battery.

---

Aaahhh, I see what you're saying there, I'm jumping from a running motor. Tell me more of your thoughts please....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by 40inches

quote:

---

Originally posted by lordbenny

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoelP
Are you jumpstarting off a running motor or just another battery? The extra volts from a running alternator would make a big difference and maybe lead you to wrongly blame your battery.

---

Aaahhh, I see what you're saying there, I'm jumping from a running motor. Tell me more of your thoughts please....

---

Try this:

The facts are
(1) The car starts with a jump.
(2) The battery is new & tests (I presume it was a high load volts drop test) OK
(3) The fact is you have checked all "electrical issues"
(4) The starter struggles against the engine which produces puffs of black smoke

Only one conclusion too much advance at low RPM.

You can do a very simple test by putting a voltmeter across the battery disconnecting the coil pack and the fuel pump then try cranking the engine over, cranking voltage should be more than 9 volts. The actual cranking voltage depends on the cca rating of the battery usually expect more than 10v. If the engine cranks at a reasonable speed then you have proof the ignition is over advanced.



Very simple test as BT says, do this first then come back

---

Multi meters are very cheap, a must have really.Maplins

I had the same problem..
I put on a type 093 54 amp battery - chucks it over great..
That was on a distributor with 19 degree static..

quote:

---

Originally posted by lordbenny

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoelP
Are you jumpstarting off a running motor or just another battery? The extra volts from a running alternator would make a big difference and maybe lead you to wrongly blame your battery.

---

Aaahhh, I see what you're saying there, I'm jumping from a running motor. Tell me more of your thoughts please....

---

So I'm now being told that I need to know what was the ampage recorded on cranking on the test bench where I had the starter motor stripped before I part with £100 for a racing battery.

I didnt ask the guys to test the cranking ampage!

I'm also being told that the Sierra Cosworth starter motor is slow cranking. Can anyone confirm this?

Finally, I am being told that, yes, a bigger battery may help if it has a high cold cranking amp, but that is getting around the problem rather fixing it.

Looks like this is going to run for a little while yet!

I would still do, as it says above, and retard the ignition, and it will start

Steve

I'll second its the timing, done it myself on the dyno, you set it for max power than it wont start!! its kicking back on the starter i expect giving the impression of a lazy starter or bad battery.

Mark the dizzy with tipex (so you can put it back) and retard it a touch to see if its starts better, if so its def timing.

When you have done this, warm the engine, but the timing back at using a timing light check the TOTAL timing at 4000RPM. You then need to get your dizzy modified to give that number of degrees at 4000RPM or "all in" but retain 10-15 degrees at cranking. You can do this yourself with a mig welder and a file!


Just noticed you have a zetec!!! so no dizzy!! have you got megajolt? id so set cranking to 5 degrees, job done!!

[Edited on 30/10/12 by BaileyPerformance]

quote:

---

Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
I'll second its the timing, done it myself on the dyno, you set it for max power than it wont start!! its kicking back on the starter i expect giving the impression of a lazy starter or bad battery.

Mark the dizzy with tipex (so you can put it back) and retard it a touch to see if its starts better, if so its def timing.

When you have done this, warm the engine, but the timing back at using a timing light check the TOTAL timing at 4000RPM. You then need to get your dizzy modified to give that number of degrees at 4000RPM or "all in" but retain 10-15 degrees at cranking. You can do this yourself with a mig welder and a file!


Just noticed you have a zetec!!! so no dizzy!! have you got megajolt? id so set cranking to 5 degrees, job done!!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lordbenny

quote:

---

Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
I'll second its the timing, done it myself on the dyno, you set it for max power than it wont start!! its kicking back on the starter i expect giving the impression of a lazy starter or bad battery.

Mark the dizzy with tipex (so you can put it back) and retard it a touch to see if its starts better, if so its def timing.

When you have done this, warm the engine, but the timing back at using a timing light check the TOTAL timing at 4000RPM. You then need to get your dizzy modified to give that number of degrees at 4000RPM or "all in" but retain 10-15 degrees at cranking. You can do this yourself with a mig welder and a file!


Just noticed you have a zetec!!! so no dizzy!! have you got megajolt? id so set cranking to 5 degrees, job done!!

---

No megajolt.

Rolling roaded just two weeks ago!

They reckon at Sanspeed (tuners) the starter is drawing too much current so the ECU is shutting the spark down! I'm gonna stick a big'ol 600 cold cranking amp battery and hope that soles my issue!

---

Perhaps talking to your tuners will solve the mystery, as between us, it hasnt

if you took the car there running, but now it doesnt, now its there problem

Steve

Please read this carefully and take from a thread the advice what you may not want to hear.

I'll put it in very simple terms your engine is trying to run backwards ! because it has way too much ignition advance at cranking RPM.

Also the current the starter took in a bench test is nothing to do with the current it draws under the load trying to start the engine under normal conditions never mind the massive current the starter will draw fighting an engine that is trying to run backwards.


So you want to stick in a massive battery something like a type 096 that would be more at home in a 3 litre diesel, it may well a enough ummph to fight the kick back and get it started but you are lugging around an extra massive weight. So how come there are guys on the forum running Zetecs with tiny 14ah motorcycle batteries ?

If there was anything wrong with your battery it would have shown up under test, volts drop tests on batteries measure the voltage a battery produces under a massive current load, nearly three times what would be demanded by a 2 lite petrol engine during a cold start in current weather conditions.

As for your "tuners" do they not posses a a volt meter and timing light to run very basic tests ? A simple cranking voltage test with the ignition disconnected would tell a lot as would checking the ignition timing at cranking speed.


[Edited on 30/10/12 by britishtrident]

I think that my crap Mini/Austin/British Leyland battery just isnt man enough, I am no expert by any means but my cheap battery cold cranks 300amps and a standard Mondeo battery cranks at least 450. Im wasnt thinking of getting something too massive, just the right tool for the job!

quote:

---

Originally posted by lordbenny
I think that my crap Mini/Austin/British Leyland battery just isnt man enough, I am no expert by any means but my cheap battery cold cranks 300amps and a standard Mondeo battery cranks at least 450. Im wasnt thinking of getting something too massive, just the right tool for the job!

---

are you using megajolt?

if so, just disconnect the MJ and it'll go into limp home mode. If it starts in LHM, then its the ignition advance.

My mini is a pig to start due to this sometimes.

Or, try removing the battery completely and jumping it. If it starts ok, its the battery. Is all wiring to and from the battery ok? correct grade, well crimped etc? no issues with impedance?

EDIT:- just saw no MJ. What ignition are you using?

[Edited on 31/10/12 by Norfolkluegojnr]

These are real figures measured by myself a few months back.
In moderate weather a normal modern high compression 1.4K litre engine in a Metro draws a bit over 70 amps from a 45ah type 063 battery at 11 volts.
A 1.8 Rover K engine with a massive type 096 battery draws just under 80 amps at 12 volts.
In sub-zero weather obvious current drawn increases and the voltage the battery can produce drops.

A standard high discharge battery tester draws about 200 amps and to pass the test the battery must produce 9v the size of the battery in both CCA and AH capacity don't make much difference to the test voltage. If a battery passes this test it will start any engine that is in good working order.


CCA (Cold Cranking Amps) is measure at -18c and is defined as the current the battery can produce for 30 seconds without the voltage dropping below 7.2v

[Edited on 31/10/12 by britishtrident]

Hey guess what?

Bought m'self a new battery today (480 cc amp) and looks like my problem has been solved!

No it hasn't, started first time I tried with the new battery then half an hour later I tried again and NOTHING!

No spark, nothing.

The engine is cranking at a million miles an hour but wont fire up!

While putting the battery in its holder, you have displaced somthing

quote:

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Originally posted by steve m
While putting the battery in its holder, you have displaced something

---

I've not read the entire thread so apologies if this has been said before......Back to basics, compression, timing, spark and fuel. These are the fundementals of getting the engine started.........

If the engine is now spinning freely with the new battery, and you STILL have no spark then your ignition cct is clearly at fault. First question is how have you verified there is no spark?. I would look at all spade connections to the coil, your distributor, and earth points.....

Going to take off the earths again and file them/ wire brush them...again today!

To be fair, if you have done this already, then they are probably ok......Can you check the voltage to the coil?. Use a dvm to do this, should see 12v when ignition is on...If this is ok, then the fault must be beyond the coil.