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KLDE larger displacement than 2.5L??
KFC - 1/11/14 at 12:45 AM

This is a long shot but does anyone know if you can make a 2.5L klde or klze a 3.0L or there abouts? I'm doing a V6 conversion and the V6 going in is a 2.5L klde. If the project is successful then I'll rebuild my spare engine that I'm using as mock up. I just thought, wouldn't it be nice to gain more displacement in a small package? It's torque I like so I'll probably get people say, turbo! Maybe but electric driven.

snapper - 1/11/14 at 08:19 AM

I would look at available oversize pistons first.

MikeRJ - 1/11/14 at 10:51 AM

A supercharger would be the way to go if you want something that feels like a larger displacement engine.

Ugg10 - 1/11/14 at 01:16 PM

I think it is difficukt to bore but there are 2.7 stroker kits out there (mainly USA)

http://forums.probetalk.com/showthread.php?p=1923976740

KFC - 1/11/14 at 02:15 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
A supercharger would be the way to go if you want something that feels like a larger displacement engine.


I won't have the room but an electric driven turbo sounds good. You could have it come on when ever you want, no lag. 😀

Ugg10 - 1/11/14 at 02:21 PM

quote:
Originally posted by KFC
quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
A supercharger would be the way to go if you want something that feels like a larger displacement engine.


I won't have the room but an electric driven turbo sounds good. You could have it come on when ever you want, no lag. 😀


.....and the amount of power you need to drive the electric turbo will be similar to the added power from the pressurised charge, you don't get something for nothing.

Might be worth looking at the vortech or rotrex chargers, about the same size as an alternator and in a similar position, rotrex has its own oil system so no extra sump mods. Not cheap though.

bi22le - 1/11/14 at 02:39 PM

NOS?

KFC - 2/11/14 at 01:00 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Ugg10
quote:
Originally posted by KFC
quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
A supercharger would be the way to go if you want something that feels like a larger displacement engine.


I won't have the room but an electric driven turbo sounds good. You could have it come on when ever you want, no lag. 😀


.....and the amount of power you need to drive the electric turbo will be similar to the added power from the pressurised charge, you don't get something for nothing.

Might be worth looking at the vortech or rotrex chargers, about the same size as an alternator and in a similar position, rotrex has its own oil system so no extra sump mods. Not cheap though.


Sounds good but again? I won't have room, the klde runs an external driven oil pump, on the other side is the alternator. No room for anything else, I want to run an air conditioning pump but will struggle with finding one that will fit in the space I have. I would imagine the electric motor will draw about 12 to 15 amps? I have no idea..

Ugg10 - 2/11/14 at 07:44 AM

Of the electric turbos I have seen they seem to quote an extra 5-10% power a real turbo or supercharger running sensible boost should be around 30-50%.

KFC - 2/11/14 at 10:58 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Ugg10
Of the electric turbos I have seen they seem to quote an extra 5-10% power a real turbo or supercharger running sensible boost should be around 30-50%.


Hmm, that's not worth the agro...

Ugg10 - 2/11/14 at 01:12 PM

A bit out of the box but some US muscle cars have been fitted with the turbo at the end of the exhaust, this would probably cause a bit of lag but I guess it works for big volume engines.

Have you looked at fitting a small turbo on each side of the engine, the one on the new ford 1.0 ecoboost might be worth looking at as this can make 120hp, so two with similar displacement (1.25l from half the v6) may work.

FORD FOCUS C-MAX 1.0 12V ECO BOOST TURBO COMPLETE TURBO UNIT MIDA 125BHP

[Edited on 2/11/14 by Ugg10]

DIY Si - 5/11/14 at 09:50 AM

quote:
Originally posted by KFC
Sounds good but again? I won't have room, the klde runs an external driven oil pump, on the other side is the alternator. No room for anything else, I want to run an air conditioning pump but will struggle with finding one that will fit in the space I have.


What's this external oil pump you're using? The standard pump sits on the nose of the crank and is internal to the engine. The only things that are external usually are the alternator, on the right as you look from the front, and power steering pump, on the left. If the car/engine had aircon fitted, the pump should sit under the alt and use the same belt.

Otherwise, the only real way to get a bigger KL is the 2.7l stroker kits, and if you're feeling brave an overbore. I say brave as the cylinder walls are quite thin due to the top hat liners, so it's not advised if it can be avoided. The other option is to do something funky with the inlet and replace it with a supercharger. But that's not a 10 minute job.

KFC - 5/11/14 at 09:44 PM

quote:
Originally posted by DIY Si
quote:
Originally posted by KFC
Sounds good but again? I won't have room, the klde runs an external driven oil pump, on the other side is the alternator. No room for anything else, I want to run an air conditioning pump but will struggle with finding one that will fit in the space I have.


What's this external oil pump you're using? The standard pump sits on the nose of the crank and is internal to the engine. The only things that are external usually are the alternator, on the right as you look from the front, and power steering pump, on the left. If the car/engine had aircon fitted, the pump should sit under the alt and use the same belt.

Otherwise, the only real way to get a bigger KL is the 2.7l stroker kits, and if you're feeling brave an overbore. I say brave as the cylinder walls are quite thin due to the top hat liners, so it's not advised if it can be avoided. The other option is to do something funky with the inlet and replace it with a supercharger. But that's not a 10 minute job.


I feel dumb now. I thought I read somewhere that the oil pump was external and I think I actually have the power steering pump. I was concentrating on the installation and the mock up chassis. Hmmm, I can't understand how I over looked this, well, suddenly I have options with the space..

KFC - 5/11/14 at 10:05 PM

quote:
Originally posted by DIY Si

The other option is to do something funky with the inlet and replace it with a supercharger. But that's not a 10 minute job.


I think a supercharger might be the only option. I am going to be running throttle bodies and need to make an inlet with airbox. I was originally thinking of a carbon tray type but it needs to have strong structure and perfectly sealed. This is a whole different ball game...

spiderman - 6/11/14 at 12:03 AM

Why not use the V6 from an S type jag. 3 litre and 240BHP out of the box, same family of engines and can come with a decent Getrag gearbox attached with no expensive adapter plates to buy. I belive it is a little larger and heavier than the Mazda unit but may suit your purpose a little better.

Could put a supercharger on once you get bored of the power available.

KFC - 6/11/14 at 07:19 AM

quote:
Originally posted by spiderman
Why not use the V6 from an S type jag. 3 litre and 240BHP out of the box, I belive it is a little larger and heavier.

Could put a supercharger on once you get bored of the power available.


I think it's too wide and a bit longer than the klde. I chose the the klde already. If you can give dimensions then I could use it for the next project! Width across the heads at the widest point and the length from the bellhousing to the crank pulley. I didn't want to cut a new subframe and move the steering rack in the RX8. I think the adapter plate over the complexities of a crossmember and prop shaft out weigh a simple adapter plate. Flywheel back is all original, simples.

40inches - 6/11/14 at 09:16 AM

quote:
Originally posted by KFC
quote:
Originally posted by spiderman
Why not use the V6 from an S type jag. 3 litre and 240BHP out of the box, I belive it is a little larger and heavier.

Could put a supercharger on once you get bored of the power available.


I think it's too wide and a bit longer than the klde. I chose the the klde already. If you can give dimensions then I could use it for the next project! Width across the heads at the widest point and the length from the bellhousing to the crank pulley. I didn't want to cut a new subframe and move the steering rack in the RX8. I think the adapter plate over the complexities of a crossmember and prop shaft out weigh a simple adapter plate. Flywheel back is all original, simples.


I am fitting the AJ30 engine in the MK. The Getrag gearbox(It is incredibly small and only weighs 33 kilos) and gear change are fitted, the engine is on the engine stand, I will post measurements later. It weighs 140 kilos with alternator and starter motor.

KFC - 6/11/14 at 01:18 PM

quote:
Originally posted by 40inches


I am fitting the AJ30 engine in the MK. The Getrag gearbox(It is incredibly small and only weighs 33 kilos) and gear change are fitted, the engine is on the engine stand, I will post measurements later. It weighs 140 kilos with alternator and starter motor.


That sounds interesting! I think I did get measurements at one stage but decided on the klde 2.5l. Is it a duratec 30? 60 degree bank? I found that a 90 degree won't fit, although, I didn't know the height of the widest points. As in, the back of the engine, centre of the crank height to the widest points, that would be the corners of the heads. I'll measure mine up accurately and put some photos on here tonight so you can see. What inlet system are you using? I've seen a 40hp increase on the klde by changing to throttle bodies and running megasquirt management.

Cheers

Ugg10 - 6/11/14 at 01:47 PM

There are details of a Westfiel with the jag 3.0l V6 on the web somewhere if you google. This has the Jenvey TBs on it, standard they are 240hp an can get up to 300hp with TBs and ECU IIRC.

I have a fiend putting one of these in a Scimitar, it has an interesting fuel system that has no return pipe but the pressure regulator is controlled by the ECU. If you have issues with bonnet height then the Duratec ST220 plenum will fit with a spacer plate, again if you search the net there is a lotus esprit with one of these in it on there with this set up. Also worth noting the inlet ports are very narro and long so may be interestingmaking a manifold to fit. Finally, a normal mod is to use the Mondeo single piece fly wheel rather than the dual mass Jag one.

Hope this helps, and yes it is basically the same as teh Ford ST220 engine with VVC on it, part of the Duratech V6 family.

KFC - 6/11/14 at 10:48 PM

I can't find a good enough picture of the engine to put the measurements on it but I have the measurements anyway.
On the back of the engine. from the center line of the crank upwards to the widest part of the cylinder heads measure 25cm in height and 53cm across, total height from the center line of the crank to the top of the heads is 35cm. I removed the heavy badly tuned inlet a while ago and scraped it. the length of the engine from the bellhousing to the front of the pulley is 48cm.
I might have the engine off the stand over the weekend for another trial fit so if I remember I take some photos then.

Ugg10 - 6/11/14 at 11:24 PM

Have you been in touch with clairetoo on here aka crapengineering.weebly.com. She knows quite a bit about thi KL engine and has fitted them in a fury and mx5. She has engineered a throttle body set up and mx5 gearbix fitting kit. There is quite a numbervof posts on mx5nutz about this engine. Also quite a bit on mx6.com on turboing it.

v8kid - 7/11/14 at 02:12 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Ugg10
. Finally, a normal mod is to use the Mondeo single piece fly wheel rather than the dual mass Jag one.


Just to clarify the mondeo 4 cylinder models have an 8 bolt fixing flywheel and the 6 cylinder models have the same 6 bolt fixing as the jag but are dual mass flywheel.

What solid flywheel do you reckon fits?

Cheers

40inches - 7/11/14 at 09:03 AM

quote:
Originally posted by v8kid
quote:
Originally posted by Ugg10
. Finally, a normal mod is to use the Mondeo single piece fly wheel rather than the dual mass Jag one.


Just to clarify the mondeo 4 cylinder models have an 8 bolt fixing flywheel and the 6 cylinder models have the same 6 bolt fixing as the jag but are dual mass flywheel.

What solid flywheel do you reckon fits?

Cheers


The Mondeo 2.5 V6. They are solid, the 3 litre is Dual Mass. MONDEO MK2 ST200 2.5 V6 GENUINE FORD FLYWHEEL
The problem with this is that the front wheel drive Jag/Ford V6 engines use a pre-engaged starter, but the rear wheel drive Jag uses a Bendix type starter, different ring gear pitch, something I am wrestling with at the moment
The V6 Jag/Ford use 8 bolt flywheels.

[Edited on 7-11-14 by 40inches]

[Edited on 7-11-14 by 40inches]

v8kid - 7/11/14 at 09:24 AM

EBay is listing both for the 2.5 there must be a model change somewhere. Ta for the heads up about the starter I could have come a cropper there.

Have you considered using a 7.5" button flywheel in conjunction with the standard flexplate? I used a 7.5" clutch on a 5l rover a and it coped fine. The only problem is working out the spline meshing in advance of taking the box out.

Cheers

40inches - 7/11/14 at 09:48 AM

quote:
Originally posted by v8kid
Ta for the heads up about the starter I could have come a cropper there.
Cheers


I already have
I thought I could swap the ring gears over, but the Jag ring gear has a 4mm larger bore I think I will have the Ford ring gear machined down in situ and the Jag one shrunk on.
I have the Jag EPC, and although the starter changed post 2003 I don't think the ring gear was any different.

Sorry KFC, there is a bit of a thread hijack going on here, I think I need to start a new rebuild thread.

KFC - 7/11/14 at 10:49 AM

quote:
Originally posted by v8kid
quote:
Originally posted by Ugg10
. Finally, a normal mod is to use the Mondeo single piece fly wheel rather than the dual mass Jag one.


Just to clarify the mondeo 4 cylinder models have an 8 bolt fixing flywheel and the 6 cylinder models have the same 6 bolt fixing as the jag but are dual mass flywheel.

What solid flywheel do you reckon fits?

Cheers


I don't actually know but it was only 2 hours for a good machinist to lighten my flywheel an put the 8 holes in it. He copied my standard flywheel to insure a perfect match.
It meant that I could use the same clutch, gearbox, starter for proper engagement. A whole list of potential problems solved just by using the flywheel that came with the gearbox.
What car are you thinking of? I'm doing a RX8.

Kevin

KFC - 7/11/14 at 11:32 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Ugg10
Have you been in touch with clairetoo on here aka crapengineering.weebly.com. She knows quite a bit about thi KL engine and has fitted them in a fury and mx5. She has engineered a throttle body set up and mx5 gearbix fitting kit. There is quite a numbervof posts on mx5nutz about this engine. Also quite a bit on mx6.com on turboing it.


Clairetoo hasn't got back in touch with me after I wasn't happy with the accuracy of an adapter plate that was made. I was happy enough to make the alterations and I've sent countless emails but not one reply.

v8kid - 7/11/14 at 01:47 PM




What car are you thinking of? I'm doing a RX8.

Kevin


The jag engine is going in my wife's Mk 3 NC MX5 shopping car - I just haven't told her yet

Bruce on MX Nutz has done it with a Mk 2 but the Mk3 is quite different being based on the RX running gear I think.

The gearbox is a I4 duratec bolt pattern rotated 10 degrees and I have a flexplate Jag 3.0 to fit.

Problem is I don't want it to be off the road for long when I do it so am trying to plan in advance and its a pain getting CAD dimensions and working out clutch spline fits. ( the adaptor plate throws the gearbox input shaft splines further back from the driven plate splines reducing engagement)

More apologies to KFC for hijacking

Cheers!

DIY Si - 7/11/14 at 04:02 PM

One of the main reasons for picking the KL over the duratec is the size and weight. The KL is tiny.

v8kid - 7/11/14 at 04:26 PM

quote:
Originally posted by DIY Si
One of the main reasons for picking the KL over the duratec is the size and weight. The KL is tiny.


I did some research and this appears to be a myth. It all depends on whose figures you believe and what is or is not included. In circumstances like this there is very probably nothing much to differentiate.

Also Clair on this forum has installed a KL and Bruce on MX5 nuts a Jag 3.0 both into MX5's and both look a tight fit so again I would suggest there is nothing to choose on size or weight.

Both require adapter plates and, currently, both have individual throttle bodies added to fit so nothing to choose between there.The issue seems to be the flywheel/clutch/first motion shaft fits.

The jag has more grunt but with the throttle bodies will loose much of the torque advantage of the standard manifold but retain the extra power.

Logically there is not much in it. IMHO of course

Cheers!

KFC - 7/11/14 at 06:09 PM

quote:
Originally posted by v8kid
quote:
Originally posted by DIY Si

One of the main reasons for picking the KL over the duratec is the size and weight. The KL is tiny.


I did some research and this appears to be a myth. It all depends on whose figures you believe and what is or is not included.


Well, I'm looking at a jag 3.0L tomorrow to take measurements, and to be fair, if it's near identical then I'll take it. The measurements I'll take, I'll end up posting here against my MX6 2.5L. I don't include the sump or inlet as they all change in any conversion. I'm really currious now.. Could be a very cheap mod as the only thing that I've done for certain is had an adapter plate made and bought some headers cheap and cut the clearance holes in the bulkhead. A turbo or supercharger is an expensive mod, I'd like to keep it naturally asperated.
Watch this space......

40inches - 7/11/14 at 07:43 PM

Measurements:
Crank to widest part of head= Cam cover 42cm
Crank to top of head, at intake face 28cm
Cam cover to cam cover outside measurement 58cm
Crank pulley face to bell housing face 49cm
Crank to bottom of bell housing 19cm
The bottom of the sump is around 20mm below the bell housing.

DIY Si - 7/11/14 at 11:48 PM

The measurements I have for my KL are:

Widest point: Standard exhaust manifold to exhaust manifold 550mm,
Height: Bottom of standard sump to top of cam gear cover 570mm,
Front of crank pulley to rear face of block 480mm.

So whilst the KL looks smaller, there's less in it than I had expected to be honest. I'm unsure of the weight of the KL, as I think it's 100Kgs but I don't know what ancillaries this includes.

I won't know for sure until I weigh mine, but having had a 2.5 Duratec V on my bench before, the KL feels lighter.

[Edited on 7/11/14 by DIY Si]

KFC - 8/11/14 at 05:03 AM

quote:
Originally posted by DIY Si
The measurements I have for my KL are:

Widest point: Standard exhaust manifold to exhaust manifold 550mm,
Height: Bottom of standard sump to top of cam gear cover 570mm,
Front of crank pulley to rear face of block 480mm.

So whilst the KL looks smaller, there's less in it than I had expected to be honest. I'm unsure of the weight of the KL, as I think it's 100Kgs but I don't know what ancillaries this includes.

I won't know for sure until I weigh mine, but having had a 2.5 Duratec V on my bench before, the KL feels lighter.

[Edited on 7/11/14 by DIY Si]


I've got scales so I'll weigh mine bare...

KFC - 8/11/14 at 02:00 PM

quote:
Originally posted by 40inches
Measurements:
Crank to widest part of head= Cam cover 42cm
Crank to top of head, at intake face 28cm
Cam cover to cam cover outside measurement 58cm
Crank pulley face to bell housing face 49cm
Crank to bottom of bell housing 19cm
The bottom of the sump is around 20mm below the bell housing.


Looks good! I went out to measure a jag v6 3.0 today and this is what I found. I failed to measure the overall width of the heads, well, I measured the widest point at the back of the engine and got different figures. This point of measuring is critical to the bulkhead. If you don't mind checking mine against yours that would be helpful!
I'll post detailed dimensions of the klde shortly.
Agreed on the length of the engine..


[img][/img]

[Edited on 8/11/14 by KFC]

v8kid - 8/11/14 at 06:17 PM

Oops! I gave some bum info there I just noticed your flywheel has 8 bolts and I said they had 6! Went out and checked mine and it has 8 as well. That means the blasted CAD drawing I have that is supposed to be the Jag bellhousing bolt pattern is duff 'cos it shows 6.

Ho hum 2 steps forward one step back

Cheers!

KFC - 8/11/14 at 11:27 PM

quote:
Originally posted by v8kid
Oops! I gave some bum info there I just noticed your flywheel has 8 bolts and I said they had 6! Went out and checked mine and it has 8 as well. That means the blasted CAD drawing I have that is supposed to be the Jag bellhousing bolt pattern is duff 'cos it shows 6.

Ho hum 2 steps forward one step back

Cheers!


Ah what a shame..
It took me a while to find a genuine accurate cad drawing of the klde bellhousing but have one and proved it's a good genuine drawing. I weighed my engine without any auxilaries and sump, quite bare, 105kg. The alternator weighs 6kg and the sump is 3kg so that's 114kg. I saw somewhere that a Jag engine bare with an alternator weighed 140kg?

First one just showing the scale is set to zero on jack stands.

[img][/img]

Actual weight.

[img][/img]

KFC - 8/11/14 at 11:33 PM

quote:
Originally posted by DIY Si
The measurements I have for my KL are:

Widest point: Standard exhaust manifold to exhaust manifold 550mm,
Height: Bottom of standard sump to top of cam gear cover 570mm,
Front of crank pulley to rear face of block 480mm.


I won't know for sure until I weigh mine, but having had a 2.5 Duratec V on my bench before, the KL feels lighter.

[Edited on 7/11/14 by DIY Si]


Photo shows the scale zero set.


[img][/img]


[img][/img]


[img][/img]

DIY Si - 9/11/14 at 03:46 PM

Be careful measuring the back of the engine as the front of the right cam cover is the highest point. Otherwise, pretty much as what I measured, which is good to know!

KFC - 9/11/14 at 04:56 PM

quote:
Originally posted by DIY Si
Be careful measuring the back of the engine as the front of the right cam cover is the highest point. Otherwise, pretty much as what I measured, which is good to know!


It's ok for my installation as I have loads of room under the bonnet, the very minium at the front from the inlet face I have 20cm. My issue is between the clutch master and the heater matrix pipes.