Don't really know what answer I'm hoping for here, but I have bought a Caterham Vauxhall Wet Sump pretty cheaply, in perfect condition, but less pickup pipe.

It was cheap enough that I have abandoned the idea of modifying a steel sump now!

My worry is how shallow it is! I have seen them run on caterhams at curborough on cars with slicks, but the depth of oil in the sump cannot be more than 30mm max! That's with the foam baffle taking up some volume too! I'm just worried that the oil volume is so low! Anybody else running a Vauxhall 16v XE with a Caterham wet sump?

Next thing, I am within a few mm of getting the engine under the bonnet of my Stuart Taylor 7 without a bonnet bulge (which is what I would prefer). How far below the chassis do folks on here run their sumps? I know in "the book" 1 inch below the chassis was used. I will need to be 35-40mm below the chassis at the lowest point (the sump is heavily ribbed and slopes up at the "leading end"

I have been working on the "Caterham did it so it must be ok" idea but I am just worried about oil surge! (and ground clearance)

Any advice/criticism gratefully received!!

[Edited on 15/12/04 by NS Dev]

On billy's with the timing belt cover removed the raised lip is level with the nosecone - bonnet clears top of engine ok.


modified sump

Sump is original vauxhall item shallowed and gullwinged. Its below the chassis at the same level as the carlton gearbox is at so even if it was higher the bottom of the gearbox still protrudes down to this level.

Mr G,

What the ground clearence on that, it's diffcult to judge from the photo. I have the Vx 8v with Carlton gearbox too and I have managed a 4inch clearance, but that is with the taller luego bodywork

Regards

Simon

The front of the kit needs lowering as its a little high at the moment but with it protruding that much there has been no trouble with speed bumps etc (and we've been over a fair few biggies)

I'd say thats about 60mm.

The engine mounts are proper westfield 16v items but instead of the rubber engine bushes sitting on plates on the chassis rails the plates are on the bottom of the chassis with the rubber mounts sat between the rails on them (if you get my drift)

I do get your drift on the engine mounts.

You mean the sump is 60mm below the bottom of the chassis rails I presume?

Interesting as you may have answered my engine mount question too! On your mounts do the rubber bushes sit flatways on then, with the mount flat on top of them and then going over to the engine block. Are the bushes round rubber ones with a stud both sides? if so then I'm ok, this is how I have done mine but I was wondering why nearly all rwd cars have the mounts in a "v shape"!!

Great to here thats about 60mm and no speed hump problems as I was getting a little worried about my bellhousing clearance. Thanks for setting my mind at ease.

Yes, that is good, my bonnet will just about clear at 40mm sump to chassis difference so no probs! Just the sump depth worry now re. oil surge, but surely Caterham knew what they were doing??????????????

Any views on the oil level issue?

quote:

---

Originally posted by NS Dev
Yes, that is good, my bonnet will just about clear at 40mm sump to chassis difference so no probs! Just the sump depth worry now re. oil surge, but surely Caterham knew what they were doing??????????????

---

Ok, now I've been 5h1t up again! There are a lot of Caterhams out there running this though, on both Vauxhall and Rover K series engines. I have heard the horror stories too but Caterham still specify 12,000 mile intervals (I certainly don't mind changing it every 3000 if needs be, the foam is less than £10 from Caterham)

I don't want to dispute something I know nowt about, but surely Caterham have too much of a reputation to take risks with this one!?? (I hope!)

[Edited on 15/12/04 by NS Dev]

Here - I think I recognise that name...

and

here

and

Interesting one here - about the sump foam...

Just a few threads i found on a quick search, but interesting reading.

HTH Stu.

Have you taken the timing belt cover off your engine? there are arguements for and against running without it, but you can then take the flange off the front of the rocker cover which will gain you another 1/2-3/4" in clearnance...

Ned.

I am toying with that idea too. Certainly I know of a lot of people running this engine in gravel rally cars without a cover, which sounds dangerous to me but they say not?????????!!!!!!!!!!

I think, having heard the ground clearnace comments and talk of the sump being 60mm below the chassis, that I won't have to cut the cover down. I can clear the bonnet with about 40-45mm of sump below the chassis (it is a LOT shallower than the Westy sump! and a lot stronger too, just doesn't hold much oil!!!!)

quote:

---

Originally posted by NS Dev
I do get your drift on the engine mounts.

You mean the sump is 60mm below the bottom of the chassis rails I presume?

Interesting as you may have answered my engine mount question too! On your mounts do the rubber bushes sit flatways on then, with the mount flat on top of them and then going over to the engine block. Are the bushes round rubber ones with a stud both sides? if so then I'm ok, this is how I have done mine but I was wondering why nearly all rwd cars have the mounts in a "v shape"!!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stu16v
Here - I think I recognise that name...

HTH Stu.

---

Northy, have you done anything about changing away from the caterham sump yet??

I am going to use mine until I can come across a dry sump pump at the right price, and at that point I will get a nice steel dry sump pan tigged up and do a DIY dry sump setup. This will be a while yet though, for the mo I am going to get new foam from Caterham and use this with the sump I have.

Ground clearance is a bit limited but there we go, hey ho, there are plenty of people on here with less and no disasters so lets hope!

NSdev,

I have a qed twin scavenge dry sump pan kicking about if you're interested...

Is it not possible just to tig some baffles into the caterham sump and remove the foam? It can't be much different to the westfield sump which has a baffle plate in, can this not just be copied?

NEd.

i was reading some threads on westy site
and it seems they all over fill by between
10--20 mm to stop oil surge and froth

Ned, the Caterham sump is much shallower than the Westy one. The bottom of the sump is only around 40mm below the crank!!!!!!!

I can't actually go any lower because the flywheel will be the lowest part of the car if I do! The ST bodywork is very compact, quite a bit smaller than a westy, hence the tricky fitting. When I move it forward, my engine will be a fair bit further forward than yours, basically front face of the gearbox level with the rear face of the footwell tubes.

Does this sound too far forward?

I wouldn't trust normal baffles to control such a shallow layer of oil in the caterham sump

[Edited on 18/1/05 by NS Dev]

i didn't think the westy sump was any deeper than the caterham one. I think i'll stick with it and go for a dry sump when funds allow.

Ned.

Yes, I have looked and compared both now, the caterham one is shallower (a few mm lower than the flywheel at the back end, then tapering shollower towards the front)

I would stick with the one you have as long as you can get the engine under the bodywork, I am not so keen on the Caterham one!

Hi NSDev,

I've not done anything yet as the car is still taxed till the end of the month, then I'll take it off the road.

I'm thinking of just replacing the Chaterham sump with a diy steel one. I will be able to make it hold a little more oil than the Chaterham one, as the Chaterham one has the "fins" on (I know they're only a few mm) and put "wings" on it. I also don't like the thought of hitting a stone with an ali sump, as I saw a picture of one that had nearly split into two! Have you got anymore details on teh DIY dry sump?

Ned, do you have any pictures of the Westy baffles? Would be helpful to see what they did on such a shallow sump.

I'm also going to remote fit the oil filter, as its the lowest point at the front!

Cheers

[Edited on 18/1/05 by Northy]

I've had a Yukspeed winged metal sump on mine for nearly 2 yrs without any problems.
I havnt experienced any oil surge problems on the trackdays been to.
On this sump the oil pick up point sits in its own compartment so it doesnt seem to be affected by high cornering/braking forces

Any pictures Skippad?

I'll get a picture of sump on car but obviously not the inside!
If u nip over to Barton Hill, yuk might have one on the shelf for you to look at.

I'm only in Malton, and know Yuk quite well, but I still don't think he'd like me looking at it to copy it!

I could try make to a drawing from memory but it might'nt be accurate!
...it was 2yrs ago since i've seen inside!

Northy, you'll be surprised how much deeper the other sumps are than the Caterham one.

Yes, you're right about the fins though, they do take up a lot od the depth, more than a few mm, think about 12mm, which is 25% of the sump depth!

If you fabricated one the same depth as the bottom of the caterham fins, btu with a nice gentle chamfer at the front, and a couple of steel strips along it for a bit of abrasion resistance, that shouls work ok.

The westy (+ QED etc) baffle, is basically a plate that screws into the sump just below the windage tray height, and has a hole for the pickup pipe to go through, and a small gap all around the edge to allow the oil to drain back.

I had considered one of these but they are too deep to get the engine below the bonnet on my car, and I was not happy with the baffling.

Tha Caterham foam should actually do a superb job of baffling, as long as a thin oil is used to prevent problems with slow drain back to the pickup pipe. The only problem is the tiny oil capacity it has, meaning even with the foam being good at de-aerating the oil, it still gets aerated!

I will use the caterham one until I can find a cheapish dry sump pump.

To make the pan I will cut up my spare cavalier steel sump, bolt it to a spare block, and tig weld in a vee shaped tray that just clears the windage tray, and to the bottom of this weld a u-section channel, capped at each end and tapered to be deeper at the front and back, and put 1/2" bsp hydraulic fittings welded into the side of the u-channel at each end.............if that makes any sense at all.

That makes perfect sense NSDev! Sounds like a good plan, if you find two cheap pumps let me know!

I'll do a steel sump over winter. One other improvement will be on the sealing of it I think, as I've always had a small oil leak with the Chaterham one

Ned, are you reading this? Have you got any pictures of the baffling inside the Westy sump?

Cheers

Westfield 16v sump...




SBD sump...



HTH Stu.



[Edited on 19/1/05 by Stu16v]

sbd and qed sumps are one in the same, mine was from westfield...

I've had to cut a bit off the baffle plate to get the dipstick through..

From memory its 100mm deep




Ned.

[Edited on 20/1/05 by ned]

quote:

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I've had to cut a bit off the baffle plate to get the dipstick through..

---

Is hat baffle sufficient? Or could it be improved?

Ned, do you know the distance between the top lip of teh sump and the baffle plate?

Cheers

Northy, think I know what you are asking for, if I were you I'd put the baffle as close to the underside of the windage tray as poss, 3mm below perhaps?

With regards to the windage tray, my memory is hazy, but i seem to remember when fitting arp bolts on another xe that they foul the windage tray, am I making this up or is this the case?

Ned.

I have heard this, but done it twice myself with no problems of fouling, so just check when you do it, it's easy for the tray to get bent and foul the bolts I would assume.