Hi,
I need some help as to which engine choice to go for,my kit is a Luego VelocityXT,sierra donor is stripped & originally i was going to use the 2.0litre pinto ive got & fit the standard fuel injection system with a cut down plenum,i also have a type 9 gfearbox.
Question is,before i go too far,what bhp is my engine likely to give me in standard
form ?
what sort of 0 - 60 times will i get with it ?

And if i were to go for a 1.8/2.0 Zetec or Redtop Vauxhall,roughly how much more will it cost & what are the advantages for the extra outlay ?
Also, would i be able to fit the fuel injection bits from these 2 engines or would it mean getting twin carbs etc ?

im not after a track car but would like it to be pretty fast

Lots of questions i know but any feedback will be appreciated thanks

Bike engine is the way to go!! Alot lighter and alot easeir to work with/on. get a spin in one before you decide!

Is it Hellfires day off???

Ive done a 0-60 dash in 6.4secs with my pinto ZR and its not set up properly yet - also couldnt get traction due to cold icy weather. I should get below 6secs when its set up better and i learn how to launch. There are tuned 2.1's out there that can do it in a little over 5secs.

Bike engines are a whole different league - allegedly!!! (queue Hellfire....)


I know a guy with a megabusa. Loves it on the track but says its a nightmare on the roads. Thats the extreme of bike engines. If i was building again id probs go for zetec - more power than i have currently, more modern engine, nice to drive on the roads but still fun for occasional trackday.

Im afraid bike engines arent really my thing,but that pinto 0-60 sounds good,if that is the case and im gonna be looking at 6.5 second 0-60's - it wont cost me much,just a precautionary strip down and rebuild.
Any more takers ????
Im hoping the car will be used most of the time as my daily driver,so dont want anything too tuned as reliability is quite important too.

Saying Hellfire is missing I thought I'd weigh in with the BEC thing!

A blade is going to cost somthing like 700-1000 quid, if you're going to rebuild a pinto, new cam maybe, few bits and pieces, you're going to be very quickly up to half the cost of a blade - and your'e still going to have an engine with maybe 80,000 miles on it. Most superbike engines seem to have way lower milage on them - mostly they're only for occasional use, and they require very little tuning. Just drop 'em in a go!

A blade locost will get you to 60 in around 4 seconds, but much more impressive is the extra cornering speed and braking improvement caused by the weight saving.

I've done about 6000 miles on the road, and if you get your gearing right, they are a pleasure to drive on the road. The sequential gearbox alone making a BEC worthwhile IMHO.

The only down side I can think of is the hassle of the emmissions test at SVA, but it can be done, other wise a BEC is the cheap easy option to a pretty quick car.

That's not to decry anybody's CEC, CEC's do have a reverse, and are less hairy on the road, a car with 280-300bhp/ton isn't everyone's cup of tea, but if you're interested in 0-60 times that might not be a problem.

Ultimately I'd urge you to get in touch with someone who lives near you to take you for a run in a BEC, it'll paint a far better picture than anything I can waffle on about.

Just to give you more info on mine. Bottom end is stock, straight out of donor with no rebuild. If it lets go ill whip it out and rebuild to 2.1. Carb is 38DGAS. Head is mildly diy ported with FR32 cam - i followed Des Hammil book instruction for porting - very easy just took some time. Exhaust is Mac#1 stainless 4-2-1 system - sounds great. Ignition is new std sierra electronic.
15" wheels with Toyo proxes - nowt flash.

In terns of costs:
Exhaust £475 (now £500).
Cam £35 ebay special.
Head porting and refurb approx £90.
Engine - £180 (i paid good money cos i was impatient, can be had for a lot less, i got a load of new bits with it as well).
Dizzy - new - £65.
Ign Amp - new - £28.
Rebuild to 2.1 will be approx £250 if i assemble. few quid extra for gaskets.
Change of carbs approx £350.
So far ignoring exhaust cos a bec will need one anyway - ive spent £400, blade will be closer to £1000. BEC will be faster and have sequential bo tho'. Horses for courses really - depends what you are after. If mine breaks i could get another engine for 50 - 75 and put my head on it.

Cant wait for better weather to try it again. Carb is running rich as well, should be better when tuned properly (timing roughly set to 12deg at the mo). In future id like to upgrade to bike carb or twin 40's. I was talking to Mac#1 - they were getting low 5's in there old demo car with 2.1 on twin 40's and 285 cam with big valve head.

If you want further advice on getting more power Mookaloid is the man. There is still life in the ole pintos yet.

[Edited on 15/2/06 by DarrenW]

I believe my Pinto Indy is giving me a 0-60 of about 4.5 sec if that gives you any encouragement.

BTW I would bin the original Fuel injection system and go for bike carbs or throttle bodies and megasquirt.

Bogg Bros seem to think that bike carbs will add about 30 BHP on their own to a standard pinto. if you do a little head work and fit a decent exhaust then so much the better.

I'd be happy to answer questions about the Pinto if you go that route.

Cheers

Mark

[Edited on 15/2/06 by mookaloid]

[quote
If you want further advice on getting more power Mookaloid is the man. There is still life in the ole pintos yet.

You are most welcome Mark.

Have a read of this. Rare posting by Dave Walker on page 2.

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=23342


Does anyone know what fuel system is recommended if you go the 2.2 conversion route? ie is bike carbs or twin 45's up to the job?

[Edited on 15/2/06 by DarrenW]

Ok guys,
Basically if im looking at 6 seconds 0-60 i will be happy,i meant to say the exhaust cost doesnt really come into it because i will need one whatever i use,if i stick with pinto i will get exhaust from Luego.
2.1 sounds interesting as do the bike carbs,how much would the bike carbs be with a manifold ?
Forgot to mention its a 205 block.
As i already have the pinto,im edging towards using it at the mo,if i were to go Dgas twin choke will i gain anything over my standard fuel injection ?

[Edited on 15/2/06 by Andybarbet]

mate go ahead and do your car engine then when youve finished it and are drivng around etc youll go to a meet and someone with a BEC will be there and youll regret the day you ever fitted the car engine

There is no sound like a Bike Engine at 11,000rpm.

chris

Bogg bros will do you a complete bike carb conversion for around £630.
Andy Donut has just been getting his bike carbs fitted to a manifold, jetted and cleaned for £200 ish. On top of that he will need cables, pump, filters etc.

original injection is restrictive. Mark Allanson got his working and reports very positively. I have been led to believe that 38DGAS might gain yopu 10 - 15bhp but you will never know as you wont be able to before and after comparisons. With a DGAS you can simply junk the injection and easiily replace (mine is injection head - flows better than carb head as std). After that twin 40's and twin 45's are next up the ladder. Some people say you have to have twin 45's after 150bhp, i know of a 2.1 that had in excess of 150 with twin 40's correctly jetted (i think chokes were bored out to 37mm).

With Pintos there is a plethora of reading material. Id suggest reading des Hammil and David Vizard bibles to give you some background.

Dont discount other engines, but if you have the Pinto already there is no need to spend mountains of more cash. bike engines will give you huge grin factor. To get the Pinto to bike engine power it will cost you similar amounts in the end but if you want to go the nromal road car route then there is nothing wrong with the Pinto. It is very simple to work with and hugely foregiving if you make mistakes when setting it up (mine was still running even when hugely advanced way too far!!).

if you want to change in the future that can be another nice winter project.

2.0 carbed pinto made a quoted 95 BHP when new. The 2.0i pinto gave 105 BHP, mainly due to improvements in the head. I have heard it said that the best pinto is an injection engine converted to carbs because it has a better flowing head. that said, if you are going to have the head flowed, it might not matter which one you start out with.

2.0i zetecs had 135 BHP and are likely to be a lot newer than the pinto that you have. these too can be either carbed or megajolted to give more power. The zetec is lighter than the pinto meaning that your car will have quicker acceleration even for the same power.

Bike engines are much quicker still and can be had for the same cost as a tuned and fitted car engine. a carbed R1 makes about 150 BHP and can be picked up quite cheap. Mine cost £600 ish from eBay and included the wiring loom, carbs, radiator and fan. You should be getting 3.5 - 4 seconds 0 - 62 times with this engine. I fitted a foam filter and £100 worth of dynojet kit to mine, rather than adapting the airbox to fit under the bonnet and upto 160 BHP is claimed from this setup.

Bike engines are by far quicker but are louder and don't have a reverse gear. If you want a sprinter then a bike engine is the one to have. If you want a cruiser for steady 60MPH A roads, then a car engine will be [a bit] more civilised. Overall, both engine types are fast but loud. It is more a matter of emphasis.

Just to add a bit of variety you could consider a Toyota 4AGE engine. Relatively light and compact engines with a very good reliability record.

I went for the "blacktop" 20V 4AGE because I wanted a standard engine with reasonable power (150 BHP). They come with individual throttle bodies and 30% lighter internals compared to a phase 3 4AGE 16V. Mated to a light flywheel the response is fantastic with 8000+ RPM considered the norm!

There is a premium for going this route but all the bits are readily available. The bare engine from Fensport is £750 or more like £1200 with all the ancilleries. Then you need the type nine bell housing and conversion kit from RAW. For best results an OMEX 600 series ECU and wiring loom will cost £550 approx. Mapping is no problem as my map data for example would just copy staight over.

Just another possibilty!

The Zetec, Toyota and K series engines are light years ahead of the Pinto. Even if you get power out a Pinto it is never going to be free revving the way a 4 valve unit is.
1.8 Zetec are dirt cheap the bigest fitting cost is the Megasquirt.

Like wise a 1.4 K16 engine makes 104 bhp as it comes out a Rover 214Sei and is a lot lighter than a Pinto.

You could just put in the pinto "as is" as long as it passes the Emissions for the SVA... dont worry.

You could go with an older engine, and get through the SVA then next winter convert to what you want, or even rebuild the Pinto.
ie for now spend the minimum on the engine you have.

Are you going for a Q plate or an age related, or a New 06 plate?.

I ask as the Emission regs at later mots will be different.
I am going Q plate, as its Visual ONLY for emission at Mot's. OK still have to pass SVA.
Later engines need a Cat and have stricter emissions.

Think of now, and the SVA.
Then think of Next Winters project to change to what engine you want.
Type 9 Gearbox will Take a Pinto, DOHC, and Zetec (someone correct me if I am wrong).

OK, its more work, but its will get you on the road. There is nothing to stop you changing to a Zetec, or a hayabusa later when its on the road.
Just take into account the exhaust etc now, so you dont cut too many holes etc in the bodywork, snookering yourself for later changes.

After all, you are building the whole car... An engine change next winter will be a doddle, and give you all summer to collect the bits, and spread the cost.

you cant beat the powa of the old xe ask ned

quote:

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Originally posted by wilkingj
You could just put in the pinto "as is" as long as it passes the Emissions for the SVA... dont worry.

You could go with an older engine, and get through the SVA then next winter convert to what you want, or even rebuild the Pinto.
ie for now spend the minimum on the engine you have.

Are you going for a Q plate or an age related, or a New 06 plate?.

I ask as the Emission regs at later mots will be different.
I am going Q plate, as its Visual ONLY for emission at Mot's. OK still have to pass SVA.
Later engines need a Cat and have stricter emissions.

Think of now, and the SVA.
Then think of Next Winters project to change to what engine you want.
Type 9 Gearbox will Take a Pinto, DOHC, and Zetec (someone correct me if I am wrong).

OK, its more work, but its will get you on the road. There is nothing to stop you changing to a Zetec, or a hayabusa later when its on the road.
Just take into account the exhaust etc now, so you dont cut too many holes etc in the bodywork, snookering yourself for later changes.

After all, you are building the whole car... An engine change next winter will be a doddle, and give you all summer to collect the bits, and spread the cost.

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Originally posted by cossey

i thought with the new computer mots the q plate thing wont hold up for emissions tests anymore.

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Originally posted by zxrlocost
mate go ahead and do your car engine then when youve finished it and are drivng around etc youll go to a meet and someone with a BEC will be there and youll regret the day you ever fitted the car engine

There is no sound like a Bike Engine at 11,000rpm.

chris

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boring

quote:

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Originally posted by DarrenW
Bogg bros will do you a complete bike carb conversion for around £630.

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How about a good old V8? All that torque and pretty good power, and as for the sound. Well, can you really beat the sound of a V8 on twin pipes?

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Originally posted by Sean
How about a good old V8? All that torque and pretty good power, and as for the sound. Well, can you really beat the sound of a V8 on twin pipes?

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Originally posted by Sean
How about a good old V8? All that torque...

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Originally posted by billy
you cant beat the powa of the old xe ask ned

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Originally posted by smart51

quote:

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Originally posted by Sean
How about a good old V8? All that torque...

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All that torque in a light weight car = big wheel spin. A lower torque, higher revving engine is a better way of getting the power in a seven.

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Not necessarily BT!!!

Once again, I'll quote something I wrote on here ages ago!

"""The fact is that you need an engine with a power/torque curve which approximately matches the ability of the wheels to put that torque on the road.

Having loads of torque at low revs is of no practical advantage in a seven because the laws of physics (and therefore the traction that can be obtained) mean that the maximum torque that can be transmitted to the road via the driven wheels is very low.

As wheel rpm increases, you can transmit progressively more power (same TORQUE!) through the driven wheels.

What you really need is an engine with a very wide power/torque band and a very big rev range.....................but then that's what we are all trying to achieve!!

As was pointed out, all the reasonably powerful engines can spin the wheels of a 7 with relative ease, the difference is that most of them have bigger rev ranges and their torque tends to fall from the bottom of the power band to the top, hence whilst accellerating, the likelihood of breaking traction decreases with speed through each gear.

Here the v8 becomes a problem as it's rev range (for the cheaper end of the market!) is limited, and in each gear the torque tends to build to a peak and then fall off again (remember that for any engine, the power and torque curves (in bhp and ftlb) cross at 5250 rpm, how does that compare to peak rpm, if it's near the limiter then all your driving will be on the increasing part of the torque curve!!)

The next problem is that with that limited rev range, the time until the next gear is short, and then the problem is repeated all over again!!!

Now contrast that to a revvy 4 cyl or 6 cyl engine (I know this is not scientifically correct, but I am referring to commonly available engines, not the "ideal world"!) where (for my Vauxhall XE for example) the working rev range is basically 5000rpm to 7500rpm. Torque peaks at around 5000rpm (as it does for most roughly square bore-stroke 4 cyl engines) and then falls all the way to 7500rpm, but the power peaks at 6500rpm ish. This means that if you can get away from a standing start fairly cleanly, traction should increase through the rev range, whereas with the v8 it will actually decrease. """

I see your point about a V8 but hey, there has to be some of us who like the retro nature of the "wheezy V8 ". Still you only need 2 gears. Pull off in second and then to fifth. Casual and relaxed. Much less hectic. Seriously though, all the engines mentioned have their benefits. Bike for track days must be sentational, but for a lazy summer's drive the burbling V8 everytime.

Here are a couple of pics of my R1 carbs attached to a Bogg Brothers ally inlet manifold.

Image deleted by owner
[img][/img]

quote:

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Originally posted by Sean
I see your point about a V8 but hey, there has to be some of us who like the retro nature of the "wheezy V8 ". Still you only need 2 gears. Pull off in second and then to fifth. Casual and relaxed. Much less hectic. Seriously though, all the engines mentioned have their benefits. Bike for track days must be sentational, but for a lazy summer's drive the burbling V8 everytime.

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quote:

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Originally posted by britishtrident
All that torque in a light weight car = big wheel spin. A lower torque, higher revving engine is a better way of getting the power in a seven.

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Originally posted by smart51
A low torque, high revving engine will apply less torque on the wheel but for more time, you won't have to change gear so soon. Both will give similar overal acceleration but the high torque engine is more likley to wheel spin.

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Which is what I said further up the thread here:

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Originally posted by NS Dev
Not necessarily BT!!!

Once again, I'll quote something I wrote on here ages ago!

"""The fact is that you need an engine with a power/torque curve which approximately matches the ability of the wheels to put that torque on the road.

Having loads of torque at low revs is of no practical advantage in a seven because the laws of physics (and therefore the traction that can be obtained) mean that the maximum torque that can be transmitted to the road via the driven wheels is very low.

As wheel rpm increases, you can transmit progressively more power (same TORQUE!) through the driven wheels.

What you really need is an engine with a very wide power/torque band and a very big rev range.....................but then that's what we are all trying to achieve!!

As was pointed out, all the reasonably powerful engines can spin the wheels of a 7 with relative ease, the difference is that most of them have bigger rev ranges and their torque tends to fall from the bottom of the power band to the top, hence whilst accellerating, the likelihood of breaking traction decreases with speed through each gear.

Here the v8 becomes a problem as it's rev range (for the cheaper end of the market!) is limited, and in each gear the torque tends to build to a peak and then fall off again (remember that for any engine, the power and torque curves (in bhp and ftlb) cross at 5250 rpm, how does that compare to peak rpm, if it's near the limiter then all your driving will be on the increasing part of the torque curve!!)

The next problem is that with that limited rev range, the time until the next gear is short, and then the problem is repeated all over again!!!

Now contrast that to a revvy 4 cyl or 6 cyl engine (I know this is not scientifically correct, but I am referring to commonly available engines, not the "ideal world"!) where (for my Vauxhall XE for example) the working rev range is basically 5000rpm to 7500rpm. Torque peaks at around 5000rpm (as it does for most roughly square bore-stroke 4 cyl engines) and then falls all the way to 7500rpm, but the power peaks at 6500rpm ish. This means that if you can get away from a standing start fairly cleanly, traction should increase through the rev range, whereas with the v8 it will actually decrease. """

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You're still mixing power and torque in that post. Torque is just an expression of power.

Torque = Horsepower x 5252 / rpm

If you enter the rpm at the wheels, you get the torque at the wheels. If you enter the rpm at the engine, you get the torque at the engine.
Torque depends on gearing, power is constant (minus losses).

An excess of power at the wheels is controlled by throttle or by spin control. If you optimise the power curve for low gears you will have less power than traction in the higher gears.

__________________________________________
Which is the most important nut in a race car?
The one holding the steering wheel.

All these tales of lazy v8s suitable for a summer evenings drive don't really match my experience of the 300bhp 4.6l rover v8 in my westfield.

Can't wait to finish the bec to compare the 2.

Regards,

Mark

Or get a ca18det from a 200sx. Mine cost £150 then £40 for a norris design stage one chip, £150 for a T3 turbo and gubbins to fit, air filter etc. Easy 250 plus bhp. I have done it all myself and reconned it to make sure it doesnt pop but it should be a luagh when its in. Just have to build the car now...