Right!
I'm seeking advice to preserve sanity now!!!
I am in the initial stages of building my new grasstrack car - an unlimited saloon class car.
My ORIGINAL idea was to use a turbocharged car engine, with the turbo removed and a positive displacement blower on it instead. The two options were
Saab 9000 2.3 turbo and Volvo T5.
The former was more compact, and very tough, but its gearbox (GM one) rather weak and with none too suitable ratios.
The latter was again very strong, makes good power, and has a gearbox capable of taking 350-400hp in std form apparently. Downside is it is large,
heavy, and worst of all, needs an expensive engine management system to be able to fire the 5 cyl, coil on plug arrangement.
My NEW and CURRENT idea is to use 2 Aprilia RSV Mille Factory R v-twin 1000cc bike engines. These are 140hp each, dry sumped, rev to 11,000rpm and
have really useable power from 4000 to 10,500 rpm, so ideal for grasstrack racing.
What I am rapidly discovering is that what is MUCH less than ideal is the fact that on 2004 onwards european Factory models (i.e. those with the
"V60 magnesium" engine) the std ECU is chip coded to the bike's key, which I don't have for either engine. The breaker that
supplied them assures me he can get non-coded ones from the USA, but this is seeming to be difficult (1 month with no joy so far)
I CAN use an aftermarket system, but nobody can guarantee that megasquirt can be made to work, even those that run the MS n Extra forum and produce
mega boxes in bulk, due to the odd fire setup of the engine. There are aftermarket systems that will work with it, (DTA P60) but these are £800 a
piece and I need two!!! These are the same ecu's that I would have needed only one of to run the 5 cyl volvo engine!
I also then have the chain drive to sort on the bike engine arrangement, though this is do-able, if not easy.
The V60 magnesium engines seem to fetch around a grand on ebay (i.e. twice what i payed) the dilemma is now do I sell them on and go with the 5 cyl
s/c volvo option if it will fit in the fiat 126 bodyshell, or do I persevere with the bike engines??
what do you lot reckon?
I would persevere with the bike engines if it was me , can maybe someone on the forum from the us help out, what about getting ecus with matched keys
from this country?
could mal at yorkshire engines help out?
Funnily enough Paul at Bikebits-R-us who got me the engines has asked Mal to get the ecu's, but I think he is struggling at the mo!
i posted in the wanted section nat, did you want my t slot table?
I've seen recently that MS will fire 5 cylinder engines - not sure which version, was looking something else up.
(i know we looked into MS before which is why it caught my attention).
what about pre-2004 ecu's will they not work? might be easier to source those.
Can you not take the ECU's to the dealer to get them programmed. Explain what you are doing, with pictures, reciepts for the engines to prove
they are not stolen bikes. They must be able to help - what if someone looses a key?
Can't you convert the Aprilias to MS&S? Leaves you total flexibility and removes the issue of getting round the key.
No, can't convert to Mega-anything. The engines are odd-fire, and whilst I believe there are a couple of chaps worldwide that have done it, it
will need new code writing to use the Aprilia crank trigger and cam trigger and odd-fire setup.
It could probably be done using a v12 wasted spark setup as this will have the correct firing angles but will cost best part of £300 per box, and £600
is a lot to spend on something that might not work.
I also had it cofirmed at the weekend that the mega software is far from easy to use when it comes to rolling road tuning!
What about emerald? Bit cheaper than DTA, and they have the capability of doing special developments if their ECU can't support something and you
can raise their interest level - would probably get into PPC as well
well i am not sure if its mega jolt or mega squirt but i know one of them can support odd firing, i am sure i have read that somewhere.
I would say that it would be megajolt, i am sure in the software there is an option of cylinder numbers and whether its odd or even fire.
admittaly megajolt is only sparks and not fuel, so sure how helpful that is.
I would have thought that many of the aftermarket ecu's would be configurable as long as the engines were taken back to basics - my V6 had no end
of gizmos as standard and I just took them all off until I was left with just the crank sensor.
Is there anything stopping you going this route?
well i have had a look on both the megasquirt and megajolt site, i have found that the tuning software megatune does allow different cylinder numbers
and odd or even fire so i don't see why u can't use this ecu?
i guess i must be missing something as u have already asked on the forums, so they would obviously know better.
Hi nat have a word with emerald either dave or carl.
cheers matt
As Megaspark apparently supports odd fire (not personal knowledge, but plenty google links say so), couldn't you use that with a set of bike
carbs, which are easily sourced and cheap?
Cheers
Alex
If you are refering to the comments I made I was talking about the MegaJolt software - of which there is a new version out which looks a lot
better.
It is/was also completely unrelated to the Megatune software for the various incarnations of Megasquirt.
quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
I also had it cofirmed at the weekend that the mega software is far from easy to use when it comes to rolling road tuning!
quote:
Originally posted by ecosse
As Megaspark apparently supports odd fire (not personal knowledge, but plenty google links say so), couldn't you use that with a set of bike carbs, which are easily sourced and cheap?
Cheers
Alex
quote:
Originally posted by procomp
Hi nat have a word with emerald either dave or carl.
cheers matt
firstly I don't know what odd fire is but megasquirt is software so should be able to handle one engine (and even both).
Using water spark, one cylinder will firte on ig. and ex and the other one will be some number of crank degress before or after the other one, agian
wasted spark so should not interfere with the other.
If you arrange the secon engine to be 180 degree with, then the wasted spark will be on the comp stroke - the final cylinde will need to have its own
coil so you have like a 3 cylinder engine - cylinder one fiures 2 cylinders, the other 3 are separate. - dunno if that makes snece, but like I say, I
am not sure what you mean by odd firing .
What is the reason why the OE ECU won't work? I was looking at a T5 for a powerplant and the breaker I spoke too said the early 850 T5s werent
too difficult to get running with the OE ECU (with perhaps some piggy back arrangement but the latter V70s were much more hassle.
Is the T5 motor really that heavy (I know it has an extra pot but it's an all alloy block)?
Cheers
Jim
I'm running one ecu per engine, running both from one is not poss due to cranks not being directly connected.
Odd fire means you can't just wait the same number of degrees basically.
The Aprilia fires (in terms of TDC) at alternatively 420 and 300 degrees of crank rotation due to its single throw crank and 60 deg v format.
No doubt possible, and "just software" but if Phil Ringwood says he would be worried about trying it (and has now appealed for info on the
msextra forum on this subject! ) then considering he is the UK authority on the subject I'm going to struggle!
If it was for a fun, locost car then no probs, but there's nothing worse than fighting with faults when you are trying to race.
Also nothing worse than knackering a very nice engine through a simple programming fault
quote:
Originally posted by jimgiblett
What is the reason why the OE ECU won't work? I was looking at a T5 for a powerplant and the breaker I spoke too said the early 850 T5s werent too difficult to get running with the OE ECU (with perhaps some piggy back arrangement but the latter V70s were much more hassle.
Is the T5 motor really that heavy (I know it has an extra pot but it's an all alloy block)?
Cheers
Jim
Excuse me thinking out loud here:
But, while I'm not sure how the Aprilia key system works, most cars (okay the ones i have worked on ) have a sensor next to the ignition barrel
which does the key verification and sends a signal to the ECU to say okay when the right key is inserted.
if this is also the case with the Aprilia system would it be possible, as with some cars, to either bypass or hack the sensor part so that it always
sends the okay signal, or at least doesn't send the dont start one?
Or is this a non starter (Sorry couldn't help that )
Cheers
Alex
that could be a goer, but trying to find somebody to do it that is legit may be harder!!
Also I need to bin several ecu functions like tank vapour bleed, idle control valve etc etc which I am not sure the ecu will like.
quote:
Originally posted by ecosse
Excuse me thinking out loud here:
But, while I'm not sure how the Aprilia key system works, most cars (okay the ones i have worked on
if this is also the case with the Aprilia system would it be possible, as with some cars, to either bypass or hack the sensor part so that it always sends the okay signal, or at least doesn't send the dont start one?
Alex
Think my mind is made up, got to buy 2 new proper ECU's, so take a look here if ya want some proper XE power for your
seven....................
XE + throttle bodies + MBE ecu etc etc
yep I'm pulling it apart and selling the bits!
can't you get an aprilla agent to provide keys for you, surely this is a goer, what happens if you lost the keys to you aprilla bike??
might cost a few quid, though not as much as 2 ecus
[Edited on 4/12/06 by liam.mccaffrey]
if i remember correctly when i converted my audi 5 cyl to megasquirt, i just set it to fire all injectors at the same time in one bank due to the odd
firing and works fine. i dont think they have to fire at the any particular time during the stroke as long as there is air/fuel mixture in the intake
ready to be sucked in. especially at high revs.
also megasquirt has wiring for 2 banks of injectors so surely you could have them firing one injector each on a v-twin in alternating sequence?
the guys on the megasquirt forum know more.
russ.
yes, that's fine for the fuel, but the sparks are trickier!
seriously silly idea....
more than one megaspark. 100 quid a pop assembled, you might get a discount for ordering more than one. Use 1 crank trigger but two sensors and map
each cylinder independently.
In fact,
2 mega squirts handling fuel and spark to 1 cylinder, 2 mega sparks handling the other cylinders.
Ok, its a crap solution and will be an arse to adjust timing but ..... its an option.
I'd prefer to investigate getting new keys from the dealer like i said before, got to be worth a punt.
i dont think dta is that expensive , around £500 for a starter package .
i think you could easily get the volvo ecu remapped (custom) of course you wont be doing it so that would be extra .
the 5 cyl is the same weight thereabouts as the old redblock 4 so about the same as a pinto with all the hardware on it ie turbo .
i dont think the internals are as strong on a whiteblock as they are on a redblock spesh if you use the early T5 engine .
saying that you could get the volvo engine up and running ,, and use an MBC to about 16 psi . the fuelling is there for it , , but you have to make
sure the engine doesnt sense nock or it retards the ignition .
i reckon its cheaper to get the volvo running on an ecu especially since you could buy a whole car for around £300 .
if it goes wrong upgrade it, theres a chap with a T5 engined beetle , and hes plenty happy with the power , you could just slot an upgraded ecu in ,
and see what happens .
quote:
Originally posted by liam.mccaffrey
can't you get an aprilla agent to provide keys for you, surely this is a goer, what happens if you lost the keys to you aprilla bike??
might cost a few quid, though not as much as 2 ecus
[Edited on 4/12/06 by liam.mccaffrey]
Hit the nail on the head catpuss!
Volvorsport - the £500 DTA ecu can't do odd-fire engines.
I'm using the S60 PRO - got a decent price now though, still mega money but put the engine etc out of the class 9 up for sale.
Just a quick pointer to my engine for sale bit - just had a cash offer of £1400 for the XE engine and throttle bodies etc etc......
if anybody wants it then its open to higher offers.
Bear in mind apart from the sump its basically a complete 200hp engine "on the key"
Just write to aprilla Uk
and say you need 2 keys programmed in 2 ECU“s..
its by far the cheapest and the best solution.
also the fastests..
say that the 2 keys you had are fallen in the pond! trown in by a baby or something....
the dealer can program them in, in the hayness manual it states how...
orrr just search for 2 other ecu“s on ebay with the orginal keys....
its a pity you are not in spain.. i would love to make a Megasquirt for just 2 pistons! its allot of less work!!
Tks
[Edited on 5/12/06 by tks]
I've decided now, going with a pair of DTA S60 Pro Ecu's.
While these will cost me a LOT of money, they will still be worth a lot of money secondhand for some years, they are completely waterproof and
mudproof, and I can map them to do what I want without all the emmissions gubbins and rubbish with the std ecu.
I can also then run slightly longer ram pipes and different exhaust and make a few more hp and better torque spread too.
On my reckoning we should be good for 150 to 155hp per engine approximately based on the std engine's 143hp...........which a) will kick the ass
of a twin TL1000 car and b) will start to worry some of the big 4 cyl twin engine cars
Nsdev,
If you havent ordered already here is my 2 peneth. I Got 5 mins to have a look at my VEMS unit ( SWIMBO demended christmas shopping was started last
night ) and I think that may be able to do it Fuel and spark.
here is why
The spark on my v8 setup is driven directly from coil drivers withing the ECU there is a setting that apears to let me fire a spark at a known degrees
from the missing tooth on the trigger.
so therefore should be able to do it. Not got mine running yet as still at the coffee table testing stage ( all sensors are up and running apart from
water temp that needs me to run through the term calculator to synchronize the resistance reading with the actual temp ).
Though I am still at the learning stage and raiding the scrap yard for the VR sender this afternoon hope to have a the ECU hooked up to the engine
next week.
regards
agriv8
I think the rest of the spars are then fired at even numbers of degrees relative to that pickup point though, as in even increments???
Obviously with my engine they are uneven increments i.. 60 degrees and 420 degrees or 300 degrees then 420 degrees etc
going back to your v-tiwn; with wasted spark, when you fire cylinder 1, on what stroke is cylinder 2 and vice versa. (sorry, don't want to think
rihgt now to work it out for myself 
).
is there no way to put a sensor on the cam so that you can identify what stroke you're on and then fire? (can't use the crank for that).
surely aprilly ecu has got the same problem of knowing which stroke the engine is at so how do they figure it out?
oh it has, it works it out from the crank trigger position.
But the mega wheel decoder cannot then give two pulses in two different places relative to the one trigger point, based on the position of the single
cam pulse, which the aprilia (and the DTA and various others) can. I am lead to believe that the new microsquirt will be able to do full wheel
decoding and unequal fire but that remains to be seen.
As it is I have now sold my other engine and ECU for £1400 which will pretty much pay for the two DTA ecu's.
These are then worth good money s/h so not such a bad investment, as they will also be pretty quick and easy to map with the DTA software.
Interestingly just been turned down on the mapping job by a "recommended" rolling road due to the noise that the engines will create when
solid mounted making det. too difficult to hear.
Just spoken to Steve Walford (SW Motorsport) though who is in my grasstrack club and he says he'll take on the mapping job, no probs as long as
I fit a Bosch knock sensor to each one he has an earbud earphone and amplifier he connects to them and wears earmuffs over the top which gives pretty
good quality of "listen" for knocking.
let me know what day thats happening, love to be around, i'll even take pictures / record it etc for posterity. I bring my own ear plugs (and ear defenders)
Cool, no probs Mike!!!!
Steve is in Northfield, south Birmingham. Not sure whether he'll be using his own rollers or the ones he uses at the moment then. He has some
he's in the process of setting up but I think they won't take the power.
I'm just worried about the chains over several hours mapping. Think they may need stops to cool down pretty often!!!