I have a frantic question!

After 6-ish years I actually tried cranking the engine over to see if I could get some oil pressure, before I fill it with water, etc. and an 'engine out' gets really difficult...

My question is, should I see some oil pressure and/or put the oil pressure warning light out when just cranking the engine over with the starter? This is with the plugs out and the coil disconnected.

'cos, at the moment, I don't...

I think oil's getting around the engine, as the engine cranked slowly to start with, then cranked really fast after 10 seconds or so, as if oil had reached the important bits.

Thing is, the pressure gauge reads zero (could be wired wrong of course) and the oil light stays on.

Help!

David

What engine is it?

The V8 is nootorious for this, and you have to either pop the dizzy off and drive the pump with a drill, or flip the pump base off and pack it with vaseline.

If it's an XFlow, then I've heard the same for these, as they can be a bugger to get the pump primed if it has drained. I don't profess to knowing much about the XF engine, so I'll leave the judgements to those who know more about them than I do.

Also, the oil light and gauge both seem to coroborate each other, but check the connections anyway. I take it's electrical, rarther than capiliary? Assuming the sender is OK, then you should at least see *something* when cranking it, rarther than it sitting on the stop down at the f*ck-end of the scale.

I'd go for the oil pump having un-primed itself meself.

Mmm...

The instruction book said 'don't forget to prime the oil pump before fitting it' and I can't remember whether I did or not.

BTW - it's a crossflow. (forgot to mention it before)

Job for tomorrow, I reckon!

cheers,

David

[Edited on 12/7/03 by David Jenkins]

Doh!

Better get the Vas. out then

Never mind. I shall reveal a tale from my youth involving nine months of paper round hell and a brand new Rover 3.9 short block if you like

Instead of Vaseline try neat STP, its kinder on the bearings (leave the vaseline for the chaps!?!)

Doubt whether it makes that much difference to be honest. The first thing I would be doing after starting an engine up after that much of a lay off would be to change the oil for something fresh anway.

Unless it's a Land Rover of course. The longer you leave one of them, the better it runs

Best thing for a land rover or a deranged rover is a box of swan vesta

Oi! I 'eard that!

Probably *not* the best thing to say to someone of my stature Mark

Besides, Land Rover ceased to be in 1996 anyway

I did see a land rover with a Dutton Phaeton body on it once, looked quite good, but it did smell funny though

That'll be the Dutton

Part of my college project had me turn a Range Rover into this swamp buggy thing for my local off road centre (before the NIMBYs complained too much and they closed down ).

Awesome fun

David, crossflows are indeed terrible for this, given that you've already installed it. Get some jump leads on it (with a running car connected to the other end). This will make the engine crank faster and is usually sufficient to prime the pump. (you did also fill the oil filter before installing it didn't you ?)

---john---

To be honest, the pump and filter went on so long ago that I can't remember what I did with them.

My garage was too hot to mess around yesterday, but sometime this week I'll whip off the pump and make sure that it and the filter are full of oil. It's only a 10-minute job anyway.

I tried 2 batteries, but it didn't help - in fact it turned over at just the same speed! I did it with the plugs out anyway, and it's spinning over pretty fast. I used 2 batteries so they weren't hit too hard by the work of cranking over a newly assembled engine.

cheers,

David

Dave have you tried the drill / adaptor method to get some oil pressure?

Don't see how that would work - the pump has to be bolted to the side of the block so that it has somewhere to 'suck and blow'! (if you pardon the expression... )

DJ

opps

mixed up xflow pinto

Tim

Did you fit a new pump when you rebuilt the engine?

The lobes in an old pump can be quite badly scored. That can make it difficult to get the pressure going, even when you think it's been well primed.

Dave

It was new (well, recon anyway).

I took the pump off last night - even a gentle turn of the spindle gets oil glooping out of the exit hole. I poured some oil in to top up the filter, just in case. Still the same result.

Tonight's job is to take one of the oil sensors off to see how fast it come out of there.

There's oil in the rocker cover area, which is the final part of the lubrication system, so I reckon oil's getting through - just not very fast.

cheers for the help so far!

David

I wonder, David, if its just that at cranking speed (whatever that is) the pump isnt very efficient and that you will only get pressure at tickover (900 revs or so).

The only comparison I can make is V12 jag. The oil pressure on them is crap. Its normal to start with cold / warm oil and get almost 60psi on tickover.

Once engine is hot, the tickover oil pressure drops to less than 10 psi - about 7 on my car that has a warrnated 55k miles. Pressure went back to about 45 at 2000 rpm.

This is apparently 'normal', and is well documented on the web. On later V12 jag actually connected the oil guage to a simple switch - it read half way when switch closed, and fell to zero when open!!!!

atb

steve

[Edited on 15/7/03 by stephen_gusterson]

Steve,

I'm starting to think that way as well.

If I get a good flow from the sensor hole then I can assume that the pump is OK - the sensors are screwed into an oil chamber that's 'next in line' after the pump itself.

My main concern is that the oil pressure switch isn't operating - it's one of the original "if this light comes on, your engine will seize in 0.5 seconds, 'cos you have no oil pressure whatsoever" type!

David

Have you also checked the relief valve?

It may be stuck open. 's an easy job, normally just a bolt/spring/ball afair.

Good thinking...

(bugger - that means I've got to get oily AGAIN!)

Where do I find the valve, once I've got the pump in me hand? Anyone got a drawing, or a link to a useful site?

DJ

[Edited on 15/7/03 by David Jenkins]

in 1980 i had a company mk2 escort. at newport pagnel service station the oil light came on. I rushed into the garage (i was late getting home) and bout a half can (2 1/2 litres) of oil and zonked the whole lot in expecting an empty engine.

when I started the car, it was interesting. The crank was hitting the oil, and was creating smoke from oil fires that would have made saddam proud.

moral of story - dont jump to conclusions, it might just be the switch thats broke!!!


atb

steve

quote:

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moral of story - dont jump to conclusions, it might just be the switch thats broke!!!

---

i cranked and cranked my x-flow in the fiesta after it's latest rebuild (dry sumped as well so loads of pipes cooler etc to pump it through)

in the end i just gave up and started it (only to tickover speed, but then it hadn't had a new camshaft so tickover was ok)light went out straight away... just seemed that cranking speed wasn't quite quick enough...?

o.

Steve & 'o',

I think I'll follow your suggestions - if I get a decent flow out of the pressure sensor hole when cranking then I'll leave it alone and wait until I'm ready to start the engine.

Oil is getting to the top of the engine, which is the end of the oil circuit, so I'm no longer excessively worried (but I'll be keeping a close eye on it for the few seconds following start-up )

cheers to all,

David

Still no joy... I took the oil sender out and cranked the engine over - no oil came out.

Now I don't know whether to risk the engine start, or look into it deeper...

cheers,

David

Trying desperately hard to remember the details but as i recall the sender is on the same gallery as the camshaft feed. Common problem is that there's crud blocking the gallery or exit hole to sender.

Have you commoned the output to low pressure switch and oil pressure guage?

As I recall it's, oil from sump up through pickup to filter then pump, on to galleries feeding crank journals and cam bearings. Then out to rocker shaft and rockers then drizzle return via camfollowers to sump.
It's not a pressure fed filter but a suction fed one.

If you have oil at rockers then it's doing the rounds. Could be partial blockage of gallery.

Rob

dave

just a thought, you said that 12 v start wont get the oil flowing

try 24v though the starter they can handle them for a little while( used the 24v start method on rs2000 rally car)

failing that you shortend the oil pickup. could there be a hole in the pickup thats sucking in air at all.

quote:

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Originally posted by Rob Lane
Trying desperately hard to remember the details but as i recall the sender is on the same gallery as the camshaft feed. Common problem is that there's crud blocking the gallery or exit hole to sender.

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quote:

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Have you commoned the output to low pressure switch and oil pressure guage?

---

quote:

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As I recall it's, oil from sump up through pickup to filter then pump, on to galleries feeding crank journals and cam bearings. Then out to rocker shaft and rockers then drizzle return via camfollowers to sump.

---

quote:

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If you have oil at rockers then it's doing the rounds. Could be partial blockage of gallery.

---

...where I can find a good diagram of the x-flow block? Something that will show the layout of the galleries, so I'll know which way to poke (Ooer, missus!).

Cheers,

David

[Edited on 28/7/03 by David Jenkins]

Sorry David, original reply was very rushed as I was just signing off to visit a client.

If the block was done professionally then they should have removed the plugs at end of block to the oil galleries as well. This then allows the chemical cleaner bath to penetrate throughout.
It's always recommended that the oilways are cleaned out with pipe cleaners afterwards as well. This is because when the block is immersed, the waterways are also cleaned out and in many cases they carry the casting sand and sludge around the tank, some of which 'could' enter the oilways.

Sometimes just poking a piece of soft wire into sender hole will unclear it.

Gallery is common, so no oil coming out is worrying, it might as you suspect mean theres no oil to bearings!! If when you check there is oil from rockers, then it means it is getting up to there via cam bearings at least because it feeds from there up.

The Xflow is usually difficult to get up to any pressure when cranking due to low running pressure anyway.

I wouldn't recommend anything more than a second or two of trying to get the pressure up by starting it. I ruined one engine by running it for 10 seconds that way! If pumps primed it should build up pressure virtually immediately on a new engine.

Rob

David, just some ideas for you.....

I noticed from another thread that you have shortened the sump (on the car?).

How did you shorten the pick-up pipe? There is no risk of a pin hole in the pipe anywhere?

Did you shorten the pipe enough? I've seen cars loose oil pressure in the past because the sump has been 'bashed' into the pickup pipe, and blocking entry hole.

In fact, the very reason I was prompted to reply to this thread is because we will be rebuilding a Pinto out of a Robin Hood this weekend. that was taken out because of oil pressure problems. When it was cold, it was extremely slow to put the oil light out and build up pressure. Strangely, when warm, oil pressure was actually better, and the light would go out instantly. We have found the problem, the oil pickup pipe was squashed agianst the bottom of the sump. When the engine was warm, the oil was thinner, and must of found it easier to get into the little gap available between sump and pipe. Luckily, there initially looks to be no damage to the engine......

quote:

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Originally posted by Stu16v
How did you shorten the pick-up pipe? There is no risk of a pin hole in the pipe anywhere?

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quote:

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Did you shorten the pipe enough?

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If the pipe has been silver soldered, I wouldnt be concerned about pin holes.

Just the pick-up to sump clearance then....

An idea to try....

Strip one of your oil pumps, clean spotlessly, and pack pump full of Vaseline (ooh-err) or moly grease. Fir to engine, and spin engine over for twenty or so secs. Hopefully, one of two things will happen. Either a) you will get oil pressure, and no more probs, or b) you wont. If b) is the case, take oil pump back off and see if the grease has been replaced by oil. The Vaseline/grease will mix with the oil happily, and help prime the pump far better than oil. If oil hasnt reached the pump, you know the problem lies with the supply side. If it has, then it is the gallery side......

I would never have known about that technique... I like this forum!

Presumably you mean packing the vaseline around the pump chamber, where the rotor is (not all the pipes & tubes, etc.!)

That's Saturday morning's job lined up...



cheers,

David

David

I have no idea of whats the difference in taking sump or pmp off, but is it not possible to take sump off, and put a pipe on the pickup tube, and blow or pour oil down it so it goes back up to the pump and primes it under gravity / tyre pump pressure.....?


atb

steve

Taking the sump off is a logistical nightmare!

I had thought about connecting a pipe to the pump's pick-up port on the block and sucking on it with my shop vac - if it goes up the tube quickly then there's not much wrong there!

DJ

david

do you fancy using a compressor to blast a shot of compressed air around the galley ways to see if any crud can be flushed through the system

Tim

Maybe - I'll hold that one in reserve, Tim

cheers,

David

quote:

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Presumably you mean packing the vaseline around the pump chamber, where the rotor is

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david

i've dug arround in the books i've got and found a wordy description of the oil system if its any help

Tim,

That could be very useful - what book is it in? (Just in case I've already got it... )

DJ

rebuilding and tuning for'd kent crossflow engine by peter & valerie wallage

Ah - got that one...

You are correct, though - it's the only book I've seen that attempts to describe the oil system.

Never mind - and thanks for the thought.

cheers,

David

The method I have used in the past when having problems with oil pickup is to remove the oil pressure switch and connect a pumptype oilcan to the engine with some hose and fittings , then pump in a pint or so of oil which should backfill the pump and filter.Then spin over with a fresh battery and the plugs removed.
I also found my crossflow to be slow to prime but after a minute or so i fitted the plugs and fired it up and got immediate oil pressure.
paul.

quote:

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Originally posted by stephen_gusterson
David

I have no idea of whats the difference in taking sump or pmp off, but is it not possible to take sump off, and put a pipe on the pickup tube, and blow or pour oil down it so it goes back up to the pump and primes it under gravity / tyre pump pressure.....?


atb

steve

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I dunno why david is so worried really.

its either gonna work and prime first time, or wreck his engine.

No biggie really!





best of luck


atb

steve

Thank you, Steve, for that helpful suggestion...

As it happens I decided to go for it today, with the aim of risking 5 seconds of running (every bearing had received a coating of bedding-in lubricant when I assembled the engine).

Unfortunately I didn't get a spark (see the question in another topic!) so the question hasn't been answered yet...

cheers,

David