Got manifold today. Very happy. They have done me a shallow version so filter exits bonnet in a good place (hopefully!).
Rescued attachment 20082007195.jpg

..... and also a TPS bracket. Mac#1 are sending me a throttle cable tonight so should be able to get on with fitting as soon as ive finished landscaping back garden.
Rescued attachment 20082007196.jpg

Very nice Darren boggs make a nice job .
How was the holiday
Graham

How long did it take you to get them back from Bogg's?

Look good Darren...

Steve

It took 4 weeks ish. Wasnt supposed to be ready until tomorrow but i got the call last Thursday so happy with that.


Holiday was fair to poor. Cannot recommend Alcudia to anyone (especially Hotel Alcudia). Great for the kids, fantastic beach but the resort was poor (and we were in the Port end which is supposed to be nicer - didnt bother going into the main tacky end). Porto Pollenca (spelling?) was nicer so went there for 2 days. As soon as we got home we bought a tent so we can have weekends away. Been to Runswick bay this weekend - great apart from weather. Might try Alnwick or Coniston next.

4 weeks?

that's a damn sight better than the 11 weeks i ended up waiting! suppose i was told 4 originally though.........

did they come with the blue silicone hose darren?

have they just changed supplier, or is this admission that the green hose isn't up to the job i wonder?

damn pretty manifolds though aren't they?
tom

That manifold looks the dogs B's!
Have u got all the ecu side sorted then?
Should give yer a few more ponies and smoother running eh!

When is the next meeting of the new club?

Theres also a trackday at teesside next monday 26th do u fancy goin?

Dave

i supplied the carbs and hose im afraid. I saw the green stuff while i was there.

Ignition ECU seems to be performing well, albeit it in 2D mode at present - hence getting TPS bracket as part of the manifold.

i wont be able to make 26th. Too much going on at home. I think next new North meet is at Sutton under Whitestonecliffe on 5th Sept. Im having root canal work done that day so probs wont make that either.

Wow now thats a work of art!! when are you taking the trip to have them sorted on the rollers?

how are boggs making the runners?
anyone know

Cut and shut the tubes IIRC. Which is nasty...

Is it particulary difficult to re-space bike carbs? Just thinking it would avoid the sharp bends in the outer runners, which would make them easier to fabricate and more even flow between cylinders.

I think so are easier to respace than others as i think the ZZR fuel rail is done using rubber pipe so easy to change where as the R1 have the fuel rail intergrated into the body of the carb

The tubes maybe cut and shut (i have no idea if they are or not) but they are nice and smooth both inside and out. Im very happy with their work. Looks right. I maybe could have respaced the carbs but they have been tricky enough so far as it is (fitting air filter back plate etc).

Does anyone fancy swapping a 100mm challenger element for 60 or 75mm one?

They look better on the car. 1st pic with air filter on.
Rescued attachment 20082007198 resize.jpg

2nd pic with filter off. As you can see the trumpets only just clear the bonnet line. i can get a new filter element for this at 75mm thick but again it will require large cut out in bonnet. There is also a 50mm element available but this will require the trumpets to be cut down a bit as they stick out approx 65mm. Do you think this will be a problem (just one end on will need to be cut - not the full trumpet)?


The elements are approx £45 each, however the new clips are £7 per pair and i will need 3 pair. Id consider a swap though if anyone in grass tracking circles etc wants a 100mm element.

[Edited on 21/8/07 by DarrenW]
Rescued attachment 20082007199 resize.jpg

Is everyone in search of the ideal solution and unwilling to compromise a little bit? There are millions of cars running round with less than perfect induction systems and no one worries a bit about them as long as they start and run.
if you know what I mean. If I'd made/bought something that looked like that I would be highly delighted and it will improve his output after it's set up.

Darren - slightly OT but what have you got in the dizzy place? Is it just a dizzy with the top taken off or something else?

Cheers,
James

I cant find a pic but its basically an old dizzy. Ive left the main upstand in tact as this has bronze bearings top and bottom. Ive then cut the ali top off that normally houses the points and rotor arm etc and shortened the shaft. It does weep a tiny amount of oil but nothing significant. I may try and find a top that fits and bond it on later (its also a cover over the rotating shaft)

There are some more inventive solutions / pics on the site if you do a search. Thesnake posted the last one in the last few days, robocog another.

Im surprised people have made comments about the runners etc without seeing the finished article. They all have a similar bend and as Pete says a lot better than some proprietary and OE solutions. The pic doesnt quite show the full picture. All of the runners are nice and smooth internally so its not just a shiny manifold. Im pretty sure that for general use the differences will make little difference to how the car runs. Sure, if you are in pursuit of pure perfection and a race beating result then it isnt for you but i guess the perfect manifold will be many times more expensive and involve a flow bench to make with guarantee. Im satisfied that when jetted up and correctly set they will be far better than the std carb and comparable to webers. Ok - i know we could get into a debate about if bike carbs are the most suitable alternative for a car engine due to revs and load characteristics etc but this is locostbuilders. I didnt have £500 to £900 for decent twin webers and if i did would probs have gone for injection anyway. Some interesting comments made all the same.

Ill not comment on the final outcome until ive had the car out on the road and back to Boggs for jetting etc. Its taken me ages to get this far so probs best not to hold your breath in anticipation



Last conundrum is should i cut the bonnet and keep the 'good for 500bhp overkill 100mm thick K&N challenger airbox' or get a thinner 50mm element and shave a bit off the trumpets (approx £65 for new element and clips assuming i can find a 50mm replacement). At least i can get it running for now without filter and go for a drive when the time comes. Fitting a new foam dome filter is out as ive bonded the challenger backplate to the kawasaki trumplet backplate so will lose th etrumpets (and i dont have enough pocket money unless someone has one cheap).
Reading the airbox thread i could make solid sides in place of the element at a thickness that suits me and fit a remote filter but not sure how to do this or where to get cost effective cone filters from. Also it may cause issues i dont want.

[Edited on 21/8/07 by DarrenW]

quote:

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Originally posted by DarrenW
2nd pic with filter off. As you can see the trumpets only just clear the bonnet line. i can get a new filter element for this at 75mm thick but again it will require large cut out in bonnet. There is also a 50mm element available but this will require the trumpets to be cut down a bit as they stick out approx 65mm. Do you think this will be a problem (just one end on will need to be cut - not the full trumpet)?


The elements are approx £45 each, however the new clips are £7 per pair and i will need 3 pair. Id consider a swap though if anyone in grass tracking circles etc wants a 100mm element.

[Edited on 21/8/07 by DarrenW]

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Very good point Andrew. They are my Prada garage shoes as well.

Darren if the filter is going to be oK in the wet weather [ i dont know what the filter is made off ] then i would use the one you have if it was me .
How about putting a bonnet bulge over the filter
Graham

I've seen them and I have one; they're still horrible. They're also the reason why I decided to start making my own and refuse to make them in the same style as theirs. The effort involved in making those runners is far greater than the effort required to space the carbs.

quote:

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Originally posted by Fatboy Dave
I've seen them and I have one; they're still horrible. They're also the reason why I decided to start making my own and refuse to make them in the same style as theirs. The effort involved in making those runners is far greater than the effort required to space the carbs.

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Ford Zetec top, Vauxhall XE bottom.






[Edited on 21/8/07 by Fatboy Dave]

Thank you nice job i see the difference know what carbs fit them manifolds ?
can you spread all bike carbs ? just curious thanks Graham

Just about anything fits - I've used everything from 600 Fazers, all GSXR carbs and throttle bodies, ZZR1100s, GPZs, ZX6s and ZX9s, and R1 carbs. All have been used with my manifolds without any complaints either by me or by customers.

ZX6 and ZX9, R1 and GSXR K1-3 throttle bodies can all be spaced. Not got my hands on any blade carbs yet. I make spacer kits for the ZX, R1 and GSXRs.

I may be wrong Dave but when i weighed up all the pros and cons, considering your carbs are so much easier to make they didnt seem that much cheaper. That then left me with the extra hassle of respacing the carbs which overall made boggs the better choice.

Do you have any data to back up your claims that the Boggs manifolds are really that terrible and that yours are better? Maybe some flow figures and scientifically proven up back to back RR testing under controlled conditions may convince me?
A man i once had the misfortune of working for used to say - 'In god we trust, for all others we need data'


Dont get me wrong - what you are saying makes sense to me and is something i have already thought myself, but in real life just how much of a difference does it actually make????

BMW say a carbon roof lowers the centre of gravity on a car but dont say how much. If it is only 5mm and worth maybe 0.1secs on a track but costs 10 grand more, on a road / occasional track car is it really worth it?

A Bugatti Veyron costs a few quid. Its insanely fast but im never likely to go that fast on UK roads. Lets say its a good investment and only depreciates 5% in the 1st year. I could probs buy a new M5 or 2nd hand M6 and write it off and still be better off.

So in summary - can anyone prove the differences and would i be able to notice / justify the difference in cost:hassle??



Some people make their own chassis and love their cars. Some people get McLaren to make theirs. It doesnt mean they get any more or less enjoyment from the cars.


I guess im on my high horse tonight but so often do i hear people dismissing others efforts without being able to prove with tangible data or having direct development exerience of the discussion in hand.

So please - if anone is going to make a bold / possibly controversial statement can you at least offer some data to back up your claims
[Edited on 21/8/07 by DarrenW]

[Edited on 21/8/07 by DarrenW]

I never claimed mine were better in any way, merely the Bogg Bros et al (as they are by no means the only ones that do it) was horrible.

What I believe is a different thing, but I tend to keep my beliefs to myself; which is to say, I haven't said what you've implied.

As for figures, no I don't actually. I have the manifolds to offer, if someone would like to flow bench them though. I will public state that I will eat my left knacker, if my Zetec manifold flowed less than the Bogg Zetec manifold that I have; purely because of the fact thatlooking ddown the end of a runner through a carb, all you can see is a wall. That's the first thing the fuel air mix will hit, leading to no small amount of fuel dropping out of atomisation and condensing on the runner wall.

quote:

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Originally posted by Peteff
Is everyone in search of the ideal solution and unwilling to compromise a little bit? There are millions of cars running round with less than perfect induction systems and no one worries a bit about them as long as they start and run..

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Sorry Dave, maybe i misheard. I thought you said the Boggs et al manifolds were terrible and you wouldnt do them like that - ie you were doing them better.

To be honest i too would expect a short straight runner manifold to flow better but i would also expect such a simpler manifold to be a fraction of the price. Maybe the carbs are easier to respace but for me a consideration was that i didnt have to do it. I would still be interested to know what the real differences are in terms of power delivery, torque and drivability to understand if its just marginal or fundamentally significant.

Reason for choosing the route i have taken is to get a cost effective alternative to webers and an improvement over the 38DGAS. Do you think i will achieve this goal? Id rather know now if ive done something wrong before ive done the switch.

quote:

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Originally posted by Peteff
Is everyone in search of the ideal solution and unwilling to compromise a little bit?

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quote:

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There are millions of cars running round with less than perfect induction systems and no one worries a bit about them as long as they start and run..

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quote:

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Originally posted by DarrenW
Sorry Dave, maybe i misheard. I thought you said the Boggs et al manifolds were terrible and you wouldnt do them like that - ie you were doing them better.

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quote:

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To be honest i too would expect a short straight runner manifold to flow better but i would also expect such a simpler manifold to be a fraction of the price. Maybe the carbs are easier to respace but for me a consideration was that i didnt have to do it.

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quote:

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I would still be interested to know what the real differences are in terms of power delivery, torque and drivability to understand if its just marginal or fundamentally significant.

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quote:

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Reason for choosing the route i have taken is to get a cost effective alternative to webers and an improvement over the 38DGAS. Do you think i will achieve this goal? Id rather know now if ive done something wrong before ive done the switch.

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Stockpiling / making production more efficient is a very valid comment.

When i open the throttles on all of the runners i can see the head inlets.

As i said before i can understand why straight runners are a benefit but would like to know more about how (ie results). For me i wasnt happy that i could make a good job of spacing mine so im happy with what ive chosen to do. The 38DGAS inlet im using now is far worse in terms of unequal length so i cant be doing such a bad thing can i? u probs have a point that for the money i could get more gains but for now ill have to settle with the decision i made.


If you have the manifolds then i have the car for the tests. Ive nothing to gain either way and no affiliation with Boggs or anyone else - just keen to quantify what horrible means. Its probs an acedemic debate with no definitive rights and wrongs anyway. If we did do some testing it may not prove either way conclusively. One may give more power but the other more torque at the more often used rev range for instance. It then becomes a case for horses for courses.

[Edited on 21/8/07 by DarrenW]

Im off to bed now. If i hadnt already fitted the air filter base and you could have respaced my carbs for the extra £50 i may have placed an order.

Best of luck Dave with your manifolds etc. Sounds like you have some good ideas.

I suppose if i want proper power in the future i may change the power plant anyway and need one of your injection manifolds. After all there are limits with a boat anchor isnt there

Dont shout too loud about the unspaced manifolds - i may need to sell mine in the future!!

quote:

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When i open the throttles on all of the runners i can see the head inlets.

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quote:

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As i said before i can understand why straight runners are a benefit but would like to know more about how (ie results). For me i wasnt happy that i could make a good job of spacing mine so im happy with what ive chosen to do.

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quote:

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The 38DGAS inlet im using now is far worse in terms of unequal length so i cant be doing such a bad thing can i?

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u probs have a point that for the money i could get more gains but for now ill have to settle with the decision i made.

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quote:

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If you have the manifolds then i have the car for the tests. Ive nothing to gain either way and no affiliation with Boggs or anyone else - just keen to quantify what horrible means.

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quote:

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Its probs an acedemic debate with no definitive rights and wrongs anyway. If we did do some testing it may not prove either way conclusively. One may give more power but the other more torque at the more often used rev range for instance. It then becomes a case for horses for courses.

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quote:

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Originally posted by DarrenW
Im off to bed now. If i hadnt already fitted the air filter base and you could have respaced my carbs for the extra £50 i may have placed an order.

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quote:

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Best of luck Dave with your manifolds etc. Sounds like you have some good ideas.

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quote:

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I suppose if i want proper power in the future i may change the power plant anyway and need one of your injection manifolds. After all there are limits with a boat anchor isnt there

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Ive been thinking about this further.

I have 38DGAS weber on now – both barrels feed into one chamber, then turn 90deg in probs only 25mm depth and then onto 4 unequal length runners and the car runs well. It is fair comment that Ford would have developed the downdraughts to a budget and with vicars and grannys in mind as well as would be bodie and doyles – but they did offer the 38DGAS as a performance upgrade on the RS2000 didn’t they? Twin webers may have straighter manifold runners but am I right in thinking the chokes are not in line and hence reduce the effective diameter compared to equivalent bike carbs????? Surely 4 separate carbs feeding their own far straighter easier flow runners is a big improvement. The debate therefore as to wether fully straight runners / respaced bike carbs vs bent runners is probs a one of fine tuning rather than a fundamental design issue in the absence of controlled test data is it not?
As i have a predominantly road car and making improvements as a hobby then im still happy with what i have now.

At the end of the day I contracted Boggs to make me a manifold to suit the carbs i supplied and they have done a good job of that. If id have respaced them first then i would have got a manifold similar to what Dave has proposed.

Dave - you are right, i did U2U you but no price was offered and since i didnt want to respace the carbs anyway i didnt pursue it any further. My choice and if it doesnt work then i am responsible for that.

[Edited on 23/8/07 by DarrenW]

Hi Dave one thing i would like to ask is when you space the carbs on your manifold [ this is on a ford pinto ] does the front carb miss the dizzy ok that is why i made my manifold like bogg brothers
Thankyou
Graham