I fancy a new challenge - Supercharging
flak monkey - 16/9/08 at 01:32 PM
Having just bought a supercharged mini, I am thinking of something to do on those cold winter nights.... 
Not sure if anyone else has done it, but I think its worth a go.
Cossie engine, supercharger, fuel injection (mega squirt), see where I am going with this?
I love the pinto power and torque, but I want something to do as a challenge more than anything, just to say I have done it!
I think cossie as it already has the lowered compression ratio needed for forced induction. Unless anyone else has any bright ideas?
Other thing, the engine needs to be cheap to start with. Anyone got a 16v turbo cossie lump (minus the turbo!)sitting around that I could purchase?
Either that or I could supercharge the existing pinto... Would save me having to buy a new exhaust etc too.
Cheers,
David
[Edited on 16/9/08 by flak monkey]
Duncan_P - 16/9/08 at 01:41 PM
Not sure that a cossie engine will be that cheap, and getting hold of an un-abused one will also be tricky.
As an alternative how about going using a Saab turbo engine as a base? Some of them (can't remember what years off hand) come with a Vauxhall
gearbox bolt pattern....so an off the shelf adaptor might fit your Type 9(?). A bit of a faff i know but would probably end up cheaper than a cossie
lump. Also the 'stock' internals are allegedly stronger.
ETA: Actually thinking about it once you have added a custom exhaust im not sure how much cheaper the saab option would be 
[Edited on 16/9/08 by Duncan_P]
tegwin - 16/9/08 at 01:48 PM
Why not get a zetec...1.8 or 2.0.... They can be had for so little money if you know where to look....Now one of those with a SC and megasquirt would
shift!
flak monkey - 16/9/08 at 01:49 PM
quote:
Originally posted by tegwin
Why not get a zetec...1.8 or 2.0.... They can be had for so little money if you know where to look....Now one of those with a SC and megasquirt would
shift!
Lowering the CR is a bit of a bugger...but doable with some shims.
Its an option, certainly. Would go duratec if it had to be a modern ford engine though I think...
In all honesty, keeping the pinto is a good option as I wouldnt need to buy a new exhaust etc. Not sure if the cossie bolt pattern etc is the same, i
presume it isnt.
David
[Edited on 16/9/08 by flak monkey]
tegwin - 16/9/08 at 01:55 PM
Failing that...
How about a VAG 1.8T unit?...
Perhaps slightly heavier than the zetec...But rock solid)
There are some nutters who have got around 350Hp out of fairly standard tune.....
Whack a SC on that and its almost ready to go... And im sure someone on here was selling VAG to MT75/T9 converters...
I always fancied getting one of the newer 1.6 duratec engines from the Sport KA, sticking a SC on that and sticking it in a middy.....not sure
why
[Edited on 16/9/08 by tegwin]
mr henderson - 16/9/08 at 02:01 PM
quote:
Originally posted by tegwin
Failing that...
How about a VAG 1.8T unit?...
Perhaps slightly heavier than the zetec...But rock solid)
There are some nutters who have got around 350Hp out of fairly standard tune.....
With a bigger turbo and some changes to the ECU, not do-able with a supercharger though, I shouldn't think.
The power losses caused by a crank drived supercharger are considerable, so going from turbo to super seems like a step in the wrong direction.
John
Mr Whippy - 16/9/08 at 02:08 PM
what about a small jet engine? that looks fun
tegwin - 16/9/08 at 02:09 PM
Edited to say... Are you suggesting that he builds a jet engine, or uses one to provide scary amounts of boost for his piston engine? 
Haha..yes...as soon as I can afford that tig welder I will be making myself a Gas turbine engine out of the largest truck turbocharger I can lay my
hands on
[Edited on 16/9/08 by tegwin]
[Edited on 16/9/08 by tegwin]
flak monkey - 16/9/08 at 02:19 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
The power losses caused by a crank drived supercharger are considerable, so going from turbo to super seems like a step in the wrong direction.
John
I disagree, almost entirely with that statement, but then I would, wouldnt I?
Superchargers have far more advantages than a turbo, but their integration is more expensive and complex, therefore most production cars with forced
induction use a turbo, not a SC.
There's a reason the most powerful vehicles use superchargers, not turbos. Yes they draw a lot from the crank, but they give you huge gains too,
right through the rev range with very little lag.
Besides turbos pretty common in sevens these days, don't recall ever seeing one with a SC strapped on?
David
BenB - 16/9/08 at 02:39 PM
Go supercharger!!!
Only question is which engine.....
You want something strong, low CR, easily accesible crank pulley and sensible cams..
How about Volve engines??? They are certainly over-spec'd (look at how much abuse you can chuck at a Volvo rear axle before it'll
complain)...
BenB - 16/9/08 at 02:43 PM
Only problem might be CR-
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1994-VOLVO-850-2-5-DOHC-ENGINE-GEARBOX-B5252S_W0QQitemZ270268353742QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item270268353742&_trkparms=72%3A984|3
9%3A1|66%3A2|65%3A12|240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
has is RWD to begin...
but has a CR of 10.3:1 which will limit your boost potential unless you fit a decompression plate (or unless it's got a split block in which case
you can use a spacer gasket).
flak monkey - 16/9/08 at 02:46 PM
quote:
Originally posted by BenB
Go supercharger!!!
Only question is which engine.....
You want something strong, low CR, easily accesible crank pulley and sensible cams..
All of those things are part of the reason my first thought was cossie engine. Not looking at silly boost, probably 1bar (14psi).
Volvo engines are solid, but I know bugger all about them, and I have a feeling an exhaust is going to be major money..... 
owelly - 16/9/08 at 02:55 PM
You need to speak to the guys at PPC magazine as they have just done a series of articles on super charging. It gave a list of chargers, pully sizes
and everything!
If you need a set of photocopies/scans, let me know!
graememk - 16/9/08 at 03:01 PM
why dont you stick a bike engine in it ?
or
turbo the pinto, just for a laugh.
[Edited on 16/9/08 by graememk]
mr henderson - 16/9/08 at 03:06 PM
quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
There's a reason the most powerful vehicles use superchargers, not turbos.
Are you referring to american dragsters? The Veyron uses turbos
quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
Yes they draw a lot from the crank, but they give you huge gains too, right through the rev range with very little lag.
So it's alright strapping what is in effect a large brake to an engine? I though the idea was to get more power, not waste it.
Turbos get most of their driving power from the heat energy in the exhaust, which otherwise would be wasted
John
x_flow57 - 16/9/08 at 03:11 PM
Friend of mine has had a Cossie head put on his Pinto, with twin 50 Webbers it is putting out in the reigion of 300HP in his Mk1 Escort rally car. I
think he has used his original Pinto ex manifold. Brian Randle in Suffolk did the machining worth a call if you want to go down that route.
Nick
flak monkey - 16/9/08 at 03:30 PM
quote:
Originally posted by x_flow57
Friend of mine has had a Cossie head put on his Pinto, with twin 50 Webbers it is putting out in the reigion of 300HP in his Mk1 Escort rally car. I
think he has used his original Pinto ex manifold. Brian Randle in Suffolk did the machining worth a call if you want to go down that route.
Nick
Thanks Nick, good to know of a local engineering place
John,
I am referring to dragcars (not necessarily the US ones), both the top fuelers and the pro stock.
The veyron isn't that much of a feat of engineering, just an overpriced supercar IMO.
David
[Edited on 16/9/08 by flak monkey]
alistairolsen - 16/9/08 at 03:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
Turbos get most of their driving power from the heat energy in the exhaust, which otherwise would be wasted
John
I dont know whether to laugh or cry
big_wasa - 16/9/08 at 04:02 PM
I would try and charge the pinto. I bet you could go 4psi with out mods to the cr 
mr henderson - 16/9/08 at 04:04 PM
quote:
Originally posted by alistairolsen
quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
Turbos get most of their driving power from the heat energy in the exhaust, which otherwise would be wasted
John
I dont know whether to laugh or cry
?????
Mave - 16/9/08 at 04:08 PM
As long as your not aiming for silly boost, you don't have to lower the compression ratio on the Zetec. Do a search on the westfield boardroom
voor "zetec AND supercharger" and you'll find a nice example, dyno-ed at 203 bhp. The engine is stock.
alistairolsen - 16/9/08 at 04:13 PM
Do you really believe the power to drive a turbochager is 'free' while that to drive a supercharger is paid for in engine power?
mr henderson - 16/9/08 at 04:23 PM
quote:
Originally posted by alistairolsen
Do you really believe the power to drive a turbochager is 'free' while that to drive a supercharger is paid for in engine power?
If you use the 'quote' feature you will get a more exact statement of what I actually said,
"Turbos get most of their driving power from the heat energy in the exhaust, which otherwise would be wasted "
This is what Wikipedia says
"However, the energy to spin the supercharger is taken from the rotating output energy of the engine's crankshaft as opposed to normally
exhausted gas from the engine. Superchargers use output energy from an engine to achieve a net gain, which must be provided from some of the
engine's total output. Turbochargers, on the other hand, convert some of the piston engine's exhaust into useful work. This energy would
otherwise be wasted out the exhaust. This means that a turbocharger is a more efficient use of the heat energy obtained from the fuel than a
supercharger."
You can read all about it here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbocharger
Hope this helps
John
indykid - 16/9/08 at 04:26 PM
quote:
Originally posted by alistairolsen
Do you really believe the power to drive a turbochager is 'free' while that to drive a supercharger is paid for in engine power?
comparatively, yes.
tom
clairetoo - 16/9/08 at 04:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
I am referring to dragcars (not necessarily the US ones), both the top fuelers and the pro stock.
David
[Edited on 16/9/08 by flak monkey]
Top fuel cars get most of their 6000 hp from the fuel (nitro methane) , and it takes something like 1000 hp to drive the supercharger....
Pro stock cars are normally-aspirated , not supercharged
flak monkey - 16/9/08 at 04:39 PM
quote:
Originally posted by clairetoo
quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
I am referring to dragcars (not necessarily the US ones), both the top fuelers and the pro stock.
David
[Edited on 16/9/08 by flak monkey]
Top fuel cars get most of their 6000 hp from the fuel (nitro methane) , and it takes something like 1000 hp to drive the supercharger....
Pro stock cars are normally-aspirated , not supercharged
Dammit
Well you get my point. If turbos were soooo much better they would be using them.
Raceline are supercharging duratecs, giving a 70bhp power boost. What would a turbo give you?
Swings and round-a-bouts both have advanatages and disadvantages.
Like I said, I fancy a challenge, not an easy ride.
David
AlphaX - 16/9/08 at 04:47 PM
i would go for the VAG 1.8T and keep the turbo. you can do 230bhp with the smaller turbo and other injectors. Or, if you're set on a
supercharger, get teh 1.4TSI which has both a turbo and supercharger. The turbo takes it over from the supercharger at about 2000rpm. It has the best
of both worlds, and does 170bhp stock but will do more.
MikeRJ - 16/9/08 at 04:48 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mr hendersonYou can read all about it here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbocharger
You don't want to put too much faith in the accuracy of information on Wikipedia IME.
Turbochargers use some of the waste energy in the exhaust, but they also significantly increase back pressure (higher pumping losses), and require
either lower compression (lower thermal efficiency off boost) or higher octane fuel (£££) for any reasonable amount of boost.
It's possible to "win" with a turbo over NA by running an engine with high static CR and allowing a very limited amount of boost, but
this isn't the way to high power outputs if you have to run pump fuel.
clairetoo - 16/9/08 at 04:50 PM
To give some idea of what a turbo can do for a standard engine - while looking for Mx3 tuning goodies () I stumbled across some nutter who had
swapped the 1.8 V6 for a 2.5 from an Mx6 , then just bunged on a huge turbo to the otherwise totally stock engine .
The resulting 406 bhp - at the wheels () must have been fun !
I'll see if I can find it if your interested ?
mr henderson - 16/9/08 at 04:54 PM
quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
quote:
Originally posted by mr hendersonYou can read all about it here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbocharger
You don't want to put too much faith in the accuracy of information on Wikipedia IME.
Turbochargers use some of the waste energy in the exhaust, but they also significantly increase back pressure (higher pumping losses), and require
either lower compression (lower thermal efficiency off boost) or higher octane fuel (£££) for any reasonable amount of boost.
It's possible to "win" with a turbo over NA by running an engine with high static CR and allowing a very limited amount of boost, but
this isn't the way to high power outputs if you have to run pump fuel.
Well, comparing what you've said there with the Wikipedia article, I think I'm going to go with the latter. Especially as, in the context of
what has already been said in this thread, we are comparing turbocharging with supercharging rather than with normal aspiration
John
Volvorsport - 16/9/08 at 05:04 PM
crikey some back to basics needed .
thermodynamically teh turbocharger is by far the most efficient , but you cant compare badly setup turbo to a well engineered electronic clutch
supercharger .
i would supercharge the pinto to about 4-6 psi with your chosen max rpm .
as with everything its swings and roundabouts , a turbo may build exhaust back pressure before the turbine ,but you can use this stored energy as
heat to improve its efficiency .
superchargings only advantage is that boost could be apparent at idle , the others are in installation issues .
in lightweight car you dont really need lots of low down torque , and a turbo can be engineered to this ( and so can a supercharger) , so you need to
think about the whole package .
and of course your engine of choice is a volvo with a rwd gearbox , ultimately better than a pinto .
AND drag racing cars only use superchargers , because nitromethane doesnt need an intercooler to cool the charge and turbos are more of a fire hazard
.
alistairolsen - 17/9/08 at 07:05 AM
Ill agree anytime they are more efficient, and use some of the heat, but every forum you go onto tends to perpetuate the idea that turbos are driven
by 'free' energy, which would otherwise be wasted, and remove nothing from the crank.
That simply isnt the case, and not even close.
mr henderson - 17/9/08 at 07:11 AM
quote:
Originally posted by alistairolsen
Ill agree anytime they are more efficient, and use some of the heat, but every forum you go onto tends to perpetuate the idea that turbos are driven
by 'free' energy, which would otherwise be wasted, and remove nothing from the crank.
Well, no one said that here, so have you decided whether to laugh or cry yet?
John
flak monkey - 17/9/08 at 09:19 AM
Hmm, now I have a dilemma. Do I go for low boost on the pinto or higher boost on a cossie engine?
No idea what I can get away with on the pinto on standard fuel...
Bearing in mind my pinto is already about 160bhp....
David
mr henderson - 17/9/08 at 09:32 AM
If you undertake this project, then you will also want to consider the cost/potential sale price ratio as well.
If you spend what is obviously going to be a fair bit of money on this car, then if you base the conversion on a pinto engine the car is going to be
worth quite a bit less than if you base it on a Zetec or Cosworth engine.
It may be that you have no intention of selling, but things change and it may be that you decide to do a whole new car and need to sell the existing
one.
I think you would find it easier to buy a Zetec rather than a Cosworth, and the Zetec would be just as usable
John
MikeR - 17/9/08 at 12:01 PM
your 160bhp pinto - do you have uprated cams?
if you do, you could be in trouble, turbo (and i assume super charged) don't like any overlap on the cam.
flak monkey - 17/9/08 at 12:04 PM
quote:
Originally posted by MikeR
your 160bhp pinto - do you have uprated cams?
if you do, you could be in trouble, turbo (and i assume super charged) don't like any overlap on the cam.
Yes I do, FR33, which is too much for a supercharger.
Anything can be made to work though
David
flak monkey - 17/9/08 at 12:22 PM
Seriously thinking of just going low boost (4-5psi) on the pinto as it is, and seeing what I get out of it.
Next thing, where to get megasquirt from?
David
bimbleuk - 17/9/08 at 01:07 PM
Do all Pintos have iron heads? As that can severley restrict your boost when using forced induction. I've seen a Rotrex installed on one and it
was a constant battle against detonation.
I've proven you can get up to 260BHP quite easily (apart from the bracketry, intercooling, plumbing, wiring etc) on a stock internal Toyota 4AGE
20V with a bar of boost but don't expect the cast pistons to last forever though. No signs of detonation when mapped or on the pistons when I
took them out recently.
So many modern engines are suitable for forced induction at modest boost levels. I've said this before but its not just a case of bolting on a
turbo/supercharger as i've spent just as much time developing the cooling, oiling, inlet,. gearbox, transmission, brakes etc as a result of the
increased power outputs.
I'm not particularly favouring either turbo or SC but in my case my chassis/engine config would make installing a turbo quite trickey.
flak monkey - 17/9/08 at 03:16 PM
The pinto is cast iron head yes, all are. Why would this cause more problems? Retained heat i presume?
I would be looking at running probably 5psi on a stock pinto.
I am well aware that it requires more than bolting on a charger. I like a challenge.
At the moment the options are:
Stock pinto with ~5psi: cheap option, can keep current exhaust etc.
Cossie turbo engine with a lot of boost: engine is expensive, but very tuneable for silly power.
2.3 Duratec with ~14psi: engines fairly priced, new exhaust, bonnet, bellhousing is expensive. One of the tuning companies is doing it already and
getting 330bhp!
The pinto is the cheap option, looks like duratec is next, then cossie.
The duratec is a dream engine for me, lots of torque, as I am bit of a lazy driver sometimes!
What I dont want to end up with is a mentally powered car which is undriveable. I really want to do this for the challenge and to proove to myself i
can do it.
I like the idea of giving it a try on the pinto, just because its a bit different.
All suggestions welcomed though. And especially feedback from those who have done it already!
David
iank - 17/9/08 at 03:47 PM
Worth a look despite not being the same supercharger you are planning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WigigiQXdcs
flak monkey - 17/9/08 at 04:01 PM
quote:
Originally posted by iank
Worth a look despite not being the same supercharger you are planning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WigigiQXdcs
Interesting, thanks for that!
carpmart - 17/9/08 at 07:07 PM
I have turbo charged my pinto engine and I am happy to discuss any and all aspects with you relating to forced induction and the pinto engine as I
have been through this loop!
flak monkey - 17/9/08 at 08:06 PM
quote:
Originally posted by carpmart
I have turbo charged my pinto engine and I am happy to discuss any and all aspects with you relating to forced induction and the pinto engine as I
have been through this loop!
Excellent thanks for that.
First step is convert it all to fuel injection. Then start faffing about with the SC. Megasquirt here I come.... Scary stuff!
carpmart - 17/9/08 at 08:26 PM
quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
quote:
Originally posted by carpmart
I have turbo charged my pinto engine and I am happy to discuss any and all aspects with you relating to forced induction and the pinto engine as I
have been through this loop!
Excellent thanks for that.
First step is convert it all to fuel injection. Then start faffing about with the SC. Megasquirt here I come.... Scary stuff!
Why convert to fuel injection?
flak monkey - 17/9/08 at 08:30 PM
quote:
Originally posted by carpmart
Why convert to fuel injection?
It all just adds to the fun!
But seriously, I would like to find out a bit more about how EFI works. Went through it with carbs, and now moving on.
I do love the webers though, they just look and sound fantastic!
David
carpmart - 17/9/08 at 08:39 PM
quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
quote:
Originally posted by carpmart
Why convert to fuel injection?
It all just adds to the fun!
But seriously, I would like to find out a bit more about how EFI works. Went through it with carbs, and now moving on.
I do love the webers though, they just look and sound fantastic!
David
I run twin 45 Dellorto's with a rising rate fuel regulator that increases the fuel to the carbs as the boost rises. Its pretty effective
although I run it on the rich side as I run with up to 12 psi (normally only 7 psi). Forced induction through carbs sounds bloody fantastic!
flak monkey - 17/9/08 at 08:49 PM
Are you running that boost on a std engine or have you lowered the CR?
Presume your carbs are upstream of the Turbo?
matt.c - 17/9/08 at 09:12 PM
My neighbours are going to love you coming up my road with a SC!
flak monkey - 17/9/08 at 09:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by matt.c
My neighbours are going to love you coming up my road with a SC!
Ahhh they love me anyway
bimbleuk - 18/9/08 at 06:25 AM
quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
The pinto is cast iron head yes, all are. Why would this cause more problems? Retained heat i presume?
Yep pretty much I'm not knocking the Pinto itself just that you would get better results from an alloy head as getting the heat out of the spark
plug, valve seats etc is easier on an alloy head.
If I could fit a Duratec in my current chassis I would be using one now! I've seen some great results from Omex using the Rotrex SC on the 2.0
HE.
carpmart - 18/9/08 at 12:46 PM
quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
Are you running that boost on a std engine or have you lowered the CR?
Presume your carbs are upstream of the Turbo?
7 psi has been proven to be OK on a standard pinto by quite a few people (www.turbosport.co.uk) That assumes that the engine is in good health to
start with. If in doubt, get the head off and have a look. New Reinz head gasket which is easily handling the boost I'm using. I have cossie
pistons and rods (got them cheap) and I still use the standard pinto crank. For ignition, I use an escort turbo ecu which can handle pressure up to 1
bar so is fine for what I need.
The carbs are set up blow through and are where you would expect to find them on a NA engine.
Make sure you plan for an intercooler on whatever you do.
ettore bugatti - 18/9/08 at 01:46 PM
You could use a FR30 or FR34 cam.
Reduce the compression to 9:1 and boost it to 7psi with an intercooler.
Then you would be looking just above 200hp.
I dont think you should lower the compression too much since it affects the effiency of the engine too much at part throttle.
Would you use the magnetic clutch of the charger?