woodster
|
 posted on 3/12/08 at 10:21 AM |
|
|
Jean Charles de Menezes new video
very sad and completly puzzling
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bwz0nFFfiJs&feature=related
|
|
|
|
|
Mr Whippy
|
| posted on 3/12/08 at 10:41 AM |
|
|
ditto
and why does anyone need to be shot so many times in the head to be stopped? I doubt even terminator took that many rounds
|
|
|
scootz
|
| posted on 3/12/08 at 10:49 AM |
|
|
That video link brings nothing to the debate for me. Far too many assumptions and biased commentaries to be taken seriously.
|
|
|
Mr Whippy
|
| posted on 3/12/08 at 10:57 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
That video link brings nothing to the debate for me. Far too many assumptions and biased commentaries to be taken seriously.
true but simply just look at the footage
everyone is biased, including those who work for the police
|
|
|
simes43
|
| posted on 3/12/08 at 10:58 AM |
|
|
I would run if my visa was up and I made a living dealing coke...........
|
|
|
Mr Whippy
|
| posted on 3/12/08 at 11:03 AM |
|
|
I would run if my visa was up and I made a living dealing coke...........
I'd run if someone was chasing me with a big gun...unless I had a bigger one...like a chain gun or a tank, preferably the tank and I was in it
too 
|
|
|
scootz
|
| posted on 3/12/08 at 11:05 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
That video link brings nothing to the debate for me. Far too many assumptions and biased commentaries to be taken seriously.
true but simply just look at the footage
everyone is biased, including those who work for the police
I looked at the footage... it showed lots of people moving about on a number of poor quality CCTV cameras and was telling me things that were not
backed up by fact.
Yes - I agree with your sentiment that everyone is predisposed to look at incidents from different perspectives. The perspective I choose, is to
approach it with an open mind!
|
|
|
MikeRJ
|
| posted on 3/12/08 at 11:08 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
Yes - I agree with your sentiment that everyone is predisposed to look at incidents from different perspectives. The perspective I choose, is to
approach it with an open mind!
De Menezes mind was certainly opened
|
|
|
splitrivet
|
| posted on 3/12/08 at 11:10 AM |
|
|
Obviously a conspiracy theory in the making something the internet seems to be very good at promoting. Some loony with nothing better to do starts em
a few more jump on the bandwagon and next thing its on the 6 oclock news.
Following the other thread I think it was just a poorly led operation carried out by badly trained and misinformed operatives that sadly led to the
death of an innocent man, very sad. the only thing you have to hope is that lessons have been learned, but I doubt it.
Cheers,
Bob
I used to be a Werewolf but I'm alright nowwoooooooooooooo
|
|
|
Mr Whippy
|
| posted on 3/12/08 at 11:14 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
That video link brings nothing to the debate for me. Far too many assumptions and biased commentaries to be taken seriously.
true but simply just look at the footage
everyone is biased, including those who work for the police
I looked at the footage... it showed lots of people moving about on a number of poor quality CCTV cameras and was telling me things that were not
backed up by fact.
Yes - I agree with your sentiment that everyone is predisposed to look at incidents from different perspectives. The perspective I choose, is to
approach it with an open mind!
Yip and I'd agree your approach is really the best
but nothing seen on that (rather crappy) footage shows him stand out from any other person simply going to get a train.
What happened to the footage on the platform? they normally have cameras there too. None on the train either? That seems a bit odd considering a
friends route master was stuffed full of cameras and tv screens when he first bought it, isn't London like the stabbing capital of Europe? 
[Edited on 3/12/08 by Mr Whippy]
|
|
|
scootz
|
| posted on 3/12/08 at 11:33 AM |
|
|
There is train footage, but unlike a lot of other (less civilized?) countries - we choose not to make a film of someone having their head blown-off
available to all and sundry on the internet!
We know what happened... he was jumped on and shot repeatedly in the head. No-one needs to see it other than those involved in the inquests.
|
|
|
Mr Whippy
|
| posted on 3/12/08 at 11:47 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
There is train footage, but unlike a lot of other (less civilized?) countries - we choose not to make a film of someone having their head blown-off
available to all and sundry on the internet!
We know what happened... he was jumped on and shot repeatedly in the head. No-one needs to see it other than those involved in the inquests.
hmmm yeah but what happened as he entered the platform...till they boarded the train and pulled the trigger
what was he doing? shouting? waving something in his hand or just jumped on and shot
|
|
|
scootz
|
| posted on 3/12/08 at 11:50 AM |
|
|
Just jumped on and shot AFAIK.
|
|
|
mr henderson
|
| posted on 3/12/08 at 12:09 PM |
|
|
In the end one has to ask what difference any of it makes. The bloke is dead, killed because people thought he was a terrorist about to cause an
explosion.
Is someone trying to make out that that isn't the case?
John
|
|
|
Mr Whippy
|
| posted on 3/12/08 at 12:19 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
In the end one has to ask what difference any of it makes. The bloke is dead, killed because people thought he was a terrorist about to cause an
explosion.
Is someone trying to make out that that isn't the case?
John
yeah why have anyone in prison? it's not going to change the past...let them all out, whats done is done
|
|
|
MikeR
|
| posted on 3/12/08 at 12:33 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
and why does anyone need to be shot so many times in the head to be stopped? I doubt even terminator took that many rounds
Its simple, you shoot until you run out of ammo to make sure the person is dead. In the situation of someone having a bomb and you think they are
going to pull the trigger would you,
a) shoot them once and hope you kill them instantly cause if you don't they may kill yourself and another 50 people
b) shoot them lots of times in very quick succession to make sure they have no chance to pull the trigger and kill you + others?
There is a famous quote from an SAS soilder who shot a bloke something like 20 times. I think it was either in Gibraltar when they shot the IRA peeps
or the Iran embassy. When asked why he shot him something ilke 20 times the response was "because i ran out of bullets".
I believe normally they go for 3 shots to maximise the chance of a kill.
(of course it could just be because adrenalin took over with the guy being stood next to someone he believed had a bomb and was likely to detonate it)
|
|
|
mr henderson
|
| posted on 3/12/08 at 12:37 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
In the end one has to ask what difference any of it makes. The bloke is dead, killed because people thought he was a terrorist about to cause an
explosion.
Is someone trying to make out that that isn't the case?
John
yeah why have anyone in prison? it's not going to change the past...let them all out, whats done is done
That's one hell of an extrapolation from what I said. I'm sure you are trying to make a point there, but I'm genuinely not sure what
it is.
John
|
|
|
flak monkey
|
| posted on 3/12/08 at 12:50 PM |
|
|
Pretty simple really.
If an armed officer is pointing a gun at you then you pay attention to him when he shouts at you to stop moving and co-operate with what he tells you
to do. If you choose not to do that then you deserve to get shot. There have been many cases of people running around with fake weapons being shot (to
disable only) because they havent complied.
In the case of a suspected suicide bomber then if they dont comply with commands what else are you to suspect? The ONLY sure fire way to stop them is
shoot to kill, anything else could lead to them having chance to push the button. If you are innocent and have nothing to hide you would raise your
hands, comply and live.
If you shoot to kill then 6 shots are perfectly justified, I am suprised there werent more fired, in all honesty.
If he had complied with police requests, none of this would have happened.
I feel sorry for the police officers involved who were just doing their job. I am sure none of them went to work that morning thinking they were going
to kill someone. Just think of the effect that it would have on you if you were put in that situation, and its made worse by the fact that it was a
tragic mistake.
All shootings by armed officers are investigated, whether there were injuries or deaths involved, as part of the investigation.
Another attempt by the media to alienate and sensationalise something. Makes a change from the 'recession' though I suppose. The only bit
that needs 'reporting' is the final outcome of the investigation, not all the speculation and supposition that some over paid reporter
dreamt up one night.
David
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
|
|
|
woodster
|
| posted on 3/12/08 at 12:55 PM |
|
|
true the cctv is poor but unless you need to go to spec savers you can see the poor guy doesn't look or act like a suicide bomber .... he calmly
buys a newspaper then quietly walks to catch his train ... no bag or big coat .... why didn't the police stop him in the street why wait until
he got on a train ??
|
|
|
woodster
|
| posted on 3/12/08 at 12:57 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
Pretty simple really.
If an armed officer is pointing a gun at you then you pay attention to him when he shouts at you to stop moving and co-operate with what he tells you
to do. If you choose not to do that then you deserve to get shot. There have been many cases of people running around with fake weapons being shot (to
disable only) because they havent complied.
In the case of a suspected suicide bomber then if they dont comply with commands what else are you to suspect? The ONLY sure fire way to stop them is
shoot to kill, anything else could lead to them having chance to push the button. If you are innocent and have nothing to hide you would raise your
hands, comply and live.
If you shoot to kill then 6 shots are perfectly justified, I am suprised there werent more fired, in all honesty.
If he had complied with police requests, none of this would have happened.
I feel sorry for the police officers involved who were just doing their job. I am sure none of them went to work that morning thinking they were going
to kill someone. Just think of the effect that it would have on you if you were put in that situation, and its made worse by the fact that it was a
tragic mistake.
All shootings by armed officers are investigated, whether there were injuries or deaths involved, as part of the investigation.
Another attempt by the media to alienate and sensationalise something. Makes a change from the 'recession' though I suppose. The only bit
that needs 'reporting' is the final outcome of the investigation, not all the speculation and supposition that some over paid reporter
dreamt up one night.
David
HE WASN'T RUNNING
|
|
|
flak monkey
|
| posted on 3/12/08 at 01:05 PM |
|
|
Ignoring police requests then and failing to comply. Same thing.
If you are stupid enough to ignore an armed officer....
If no warnings were given then its a different matter. But my understanding was that he ignored police requests.
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
|
|
|
scootz
|
| posted on 3/12/08 at 01:11 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by woodster
true the cctv is poor but unless you need to go to spec savers you can see the poor guy doesn't look or act like a suicide bomber .... he calmly
buys a newspaper then quietly walks to catch his train ... no bag or big coat .... why didn't the police stop him in the street why wait until
he got on a train ??
We spoke about the Suicide Bombers Handbook on another thread Woodster... what does a suicide bomber look like, or act like... can you provide a
definition, because there ain't one in the Handbook!
|
|
|
dave1888
|
| posted on 3/12/08 at 01:16 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by splitrivet
Obviously a conspiracy theory in the making something the internet seems to be very good at promoting. Some loony with nothing better to do starts em
a few more jump on the bandwagon and next thing its on the 6 oclock news.
Following the other thread I think it was just a poorly led operation carried out by badly trained and misinformed operatives that sadly led to the
death of an innocent man, very sad. the only thing you have to hope is that lessons have been learned, but I doubt it.
Cheers,
Bob [/quote
I have to agree with this, big mistake but i dont think any lessons will be learned.
|
|
|
woodster
|
| posted on 3/12/08 at 01:25 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
quote:
Originally posted by woodster
true the cctv is poor but unless you need to go to spec savers you can see the poor guy doesn't look or act like a suicide bomber .... he calmly
buys a newspaper then quietly walks to catch his train ... no bag or big coat .... why didn't the police stop him in the street why wait until
he got on a train ??
We spoke about the Suicide Bombers Handbook on another thread Woodster... what does a suicide bomber look like, or act like... can you provide a
definition, because there ain't one in the Handbook!
so in other words its ok to shoot anyone thats getting on a train .... as the poor guy looked like any other passenger that day .. paper in hand
calmly taking his seat
|
|
|
Benzine
|
| posted on 3/12/08 at 01:32 PM |
|
|
There seems to be a Pascal's Wager type viewpoint from lots of people.
"It's better to believe in god and there not be a god than to not believe in god and there is a god"
"It's better to shoot a person & he turns out not to be a terrorist than to not shoot someone who turns out to be a
terrorist"
Pascal's Wager blows goats.
|
|
|
