yamapinto
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| posted on 20/5/08 at 06:55 PM |
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Megasquirt Ignition advance
Well It looks like on the fueling side we've been struggeling with some badly spraying injectors.. they looked fine with fair spray patterns but
we've put some more in and it all appears much better.
Now.. for the Ignition side (its set at about 20 deg at idle and rising the usual advance curve above that on spark map1), I'm doubting very
much that the Megasquirt is advancing the timing properly if at all.
I've dialled in loads of ignition advance but it appears to have made no difference, not a hint of pinking and the exhaust is still quite hot
(the very final tailpipe bend and silencer can are much hotter than when it was on carbs).
When I had the injector problems before i'd taken it down to a friends garage in the hope he'd have a timing light that was good to use on
wasted spark ignition, we had a quick look and he said it appeared to be bouncing when at steady rev's i.e i'd tell him what advance the
laptop said it was giving and he'd say it was somthing like that but then bouncing back to the idle advance say 10 deg.
Any ideas people i've hopefully attatched a Log file and the MSQ, i'd be greatful if people could have a look and suggest anything.
[Edited on 20/5/08 by yamapinto]
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yamapinto
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| posted on 20/5/08 at 06:58 PM |
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Damn it didn't attatch the files.. try again
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yamapinto
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| posted on 20/5/08 at 06:59 PM |
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Hmm can't seem to attatch 2 files in 1 go either.
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clairetoo
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| posted on 20/5/08 at 07:01 PM |
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I tried to download - it just takes me to this page ?
Its cuz I is blond , innit
Claire xx
Will weld for food......
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yamapinto
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| posted on 20/5/08 at 07:05 PM |
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I think you might have to "right click" and "save target as"
[Edited on 20/5/08 by yamapinto]
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darrens
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| posted on 20/5/08 at 07:22 PM |
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what ini file are you using (i.e firmware version B&G MSI /II or extra
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yamapinto
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| posted on 20/5/08 at 07:27 PM |
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Erm.. Megasquirt 1 029y4 does that sound about right?
Its fireing the coil pack directly i.e NO Edis
and it has switchable ignition maps but either the standard map or the one that can be switched on appear to make a difference to the actual advance
on the car (the advance guage and lookup tables show that it is changing).
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darrens
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| posted on 20/5/08 at 07:31 PM |
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Megatune won't seem to load your msq properly.
You haven't got the "fixed timing" check box ticked have you.
If you alter the timing at idle i.e from 20 to say 10 and click burn, does your idle drop and remain so?
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darrens
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| posted on 20/5/08 at 07:44 PM |
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Manage to get the msg to load properly, I have noticed that in both VE and spark table there are no KPA values, the advance and rpm figures are there
tho.
Do you also have this, the excel file shows changes in the MAP/RPM and ignition so seems very odd
ps timing lights not much use with wasted spark systems
[Edited on 20/5/08 by darrens]
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yamapinto
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| posted on 20/5/08 at 07:55 PM |
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Ours is running Alpha N so advances the VE and Ignition using the TPS.
I'm not sure where the "fixed timing" option is but am frantically looking now lol.
At idle, the the idle speed did change when you changed the ignition advance but I haven't thought to try in a while, might well pop out and do
that.
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matt_claydon
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| posted on 20/5/08 at 07:56 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by darrens
ps timing lights not much use with wasted spark systems
Timing lights work absolutely fine with WS. It'll just flash every revolution of the engine instead of every other revolution.
A timing light is really the only way to know for sure what your ignition is doing. I would suggest you start with fixed timing in Megatune and check
that changing that value has the appropriate effect with the timing light. Then re-activate the map and go from there.
[Edited on 20/5/08 by matt_claydon]
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yamapinto
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| posted on 20/5/08 at 08:37 PM |
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Unfortunately the timing light we've got at home is pretty rubbish and we haven't got much of a clue how to use it  .
I just suspect after tuneing a Megajolt in the past, the very high advance were running without pinkinng and how hot the exhaust is getting that its
not advancing the timing as it should.
It was suggested by my friend that tried the timing light before that the bouncing advance is a common problem on some cars when the CPS is on its way
out, but it runs the rev-counter and the MS rev guage faultlessley and nothing unusual shows up on the logger so I doubt its that.
Where is the "fixed advance" setting for me to check or alter it?
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darrens
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| posted on 20/5/08 at 09:37 PM |
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As you running MS1 (which I have now realised) the fixed timing option is not a checked box, it's labelled as "Fixed Angle (-10 = use
map)(deg)" which effectively means anyother figure other than -10 uses the map. I'm using MSII Extra and the fixed Advance caught me out
for a nano second.
Can't for the life of me see why it wouldn't advance the timing. Only thing I can think of is to put your entire table to a set figure say
16deg, drive, and then change it all to 30 and drive and see if there's a difference.
Cheers
[Edited on 20/5/08 by darrens]
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yamapinto
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| posted on 20/5/08 at 09:56 PM |
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Yup the fixed angle is set at -10 so it should be following the advance tables.
As for advancing the whole table etc i've kind of done that, as standard i've got 18Deg advance which is surely high (there could be an
error in the trigger wheel placement etc but unlikey) this is up from the standard 10 deg at idle and there isin't a hint of pinking
anywhere.
Tonight I pushed the map up a further 10 Deg throuout the whole map while the car was running using the table transform (does that take effect
immediately), I'm not sure I burnt it to the ECU tho.
Is it likely that the advance can bounce? or was thast likely to be the effect of the wasted spark when my friend looking at the timeing?.
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Jenko
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| posted on 22/5/08 at 10:55 AM |
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The issue with Wasted Spark and timing is normally only due to adjustable timing lights that have a dial on them...The normal crappy cheapie ones will
work just fine....
This really is your first point of call....Ignore what MS is telling you...Get the timing light on and see what is happening.....If you getting no
advanve, and it's stuck on 20 then my guess is it's a settings issue......If it doesn't work at all, then it's usually
hardware.....As you are not using EDIS, then you will not have a limp home advance number, so MS must be telling the sparks to do something.....
Out of interest...Darrens..Are you using EDIS?.....I'm currently having some prolems setting up MSII extra for EDIS, so would like to pick your
brains :-)
Paul.
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DaveFJ
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| posted on 22/5/08 at 12:03 PM |
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Out of interest, what TBs are you using?
I am having nightmares getting mine tuned at the moment. I find that if I drop the advance down to about 7 degrees at idle it will idle nicely but is
totally undrivable.. as soon as you try and move off the engine dies... If I wind it up to about 18 degrees then it runs ok but very rich and idle is
about 1700... (tried tweaking the VE table back but it just makes it splutter again!)
Currently got it sat in the middle at about 12 dgrees at idle which is just about drivable but it splutters and pops back through the TBs....
I have found that if I get the wife to drive so I can fiddle I can shift the spark advance using the tuning page and the difference is noticeable..
have you tried it like that?
Not many poeple seem to want to confes to running MSnS & TBs on a Pinto as not many seem to be willing to offer up maps etc!
(I will upload my lateste attempts in a mo!)
cheers
Dave
"In Support of Help the Heroes" - Always
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Jenko
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| posted on 22/5/08 at 01:01 PM |
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Sounds like this is more of a fueling problem......At 10 degrees most engine should run fine (at least at tickover)...there is then a fairly steep
curve up to 3500 (ish) rpm, after which point, you should be seeing maximum advance...obviously this number will vary depentent on engine combustion
chamber type - older engines tend to require more advance....On a pinto, I would imagine somewhere around 36 would be ok at max.
So, I would verify you are indeed seeing say 10degrees at tickover, then tune the fuel map at light throttle.....Try the megajolt website for loads of
ignition maps.......
Paul.
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Jenko
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| posted on 22/5/08 at 01:10 PM |
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In fact...just had a look on the MJ site, and there is a map for a standard pinto: - Sure something close to this will be ok for now....
rpmBins=5,12,15,20,25,30,35,40,45,50
advance9=14,17,15,24,24,25,27,28,29,29
advance8=14,17,15,24,25,25,27,28,30,30
advance7=14,17,16,24,25,25,27,28,30,30
advance6=14,18,20,24,26,26,28,28,33,33
advance5=14,19,21,24,27,27,28,29,35,35
advance4=14,20,24,25,27,27,29,29,37,37
advance3=14,21,25,26,28,28,30,30,38,38
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Jenko
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| posted on 22/5/08 at 01:43 PM |
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DaveFJ...I also note you have posted on the MSextra site......Is it just me, of does the MSextra forum seem rubbish recently?..Occasional you will get
a few useful posts from people who have installed MS, and are trying to help, but there seems to be no inputs from the
'experts'.....I'm finding it increasingly difficult to get any answers from that forum?????....
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DaveFJ
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| posted on 22/5/08 at 02:02 PM |
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I totally agree...
I have ben posting my problems wherever I can because I am desperate to get this car running right...
Interestingly one of my neighbours stopped by the other day whilst i was working on the car for a chat... asked me if I would like to use his Dyno!!
apparently he is head of the motor engineering faculty at east anglia college and has a £40k dyno...
Would like to get it a bit better before taking him up on his offer and having a load of students stood around watching me make an arse of it!
Just had a look at those spark maps... gonna try out a copuple of them and see how I get on
Dave
"In Support of Help the Heroes" - Always
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Jenko
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| posted on 22/5/08 at 03:04 PM |
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When I first got mine working, I was getting allot of popping and banging and it was running very rich.......
Turns out the VE calculator tool was nowhere near what it should have been for my car.....What AFR are you reading at tick over?....Also, if it is
running, then dieing, have a close look at the warm up enrichment you have set.........As mentioned, I really can't see how the problem can be
ignition related - changing the advance may be just keeping it ticking over for longer, but on a steady 10 degrees....it should tick over all day.
Paul.
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DaveFJ
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| posted on 22/5/08 at 03:47 PM |
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Thanks
This is the kind of feedback I need as I really am a novice at this stuff....
I have been tweaking my idle to try to get AFR to about 14 ish but have been reading and apparently this is wrong because have a long duration cam so
should tune 'by ear'... great if I knew what I was listening too!
Just been out in it - to collect my new helmet - and it was running OK pootling along but as soon as I tried to accelerate it got nasty and lumpy.....
going to try one of the maps from the megajolt site on my way home - I am toying with the idea of the one described as for 'highly tuned
Pinto's' as I have a 2.1 with a mildy ported head with 1mm skimmed off to increase compression and a lightweight flywheel and, of course,
a Kent FR34 cam.....
sounds like it should be a good combination -shame it runs like a dog!
[Edited on 22-5-08 by DaveFJ]
Dave
"In Support of Help the Heroes" - Always
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Jenko
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| posted on 22/5/08 at 04:09 PM |
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A more tuned engine can generally handle more advance.....But it really sounds like you need to concentrate on the low speed / low load running of the
car before you worry about what your max advance is........
So, At start up (from cold), you first have a priming pulse that puts pressure into the fuel lines, and gives a quick open/ close on the
injectors.....this is the noise you hear from the fuel pump when you first turn the key....
Then you have cranking fuel settings...Both of these only go towards starting the car...if the car starts at the moment, then you can forget about
these for the time being......
Next is the warmup enrichment, the recommended values for this in the mega manual are in the ball park, but what this is doing is adding extra fuel to
a cold car, the amount of enrichment is down to the reading on the coolant sensor....Obviously, this does need to be set correctly, as it could easily
flood / lean up the car if you have the wrong settings.......
So, if you can leave the car ticking over, until it's up to temp, then this is probably not too bad at the moment, just make sure it is off when
the coolant is over 70 degrees, else you will be adding fuel.
On a gentle drive, at a steady throttle, there should be no banging, chuffing, popping, any of the above can mean either incorrect fuel, or you are
loosing your spark.....
When you depress the throttle, there is also an accelleration enrichment...so again, if this is too high, you will flood the engine....Lots to
check!....
Of course, all of the above can be effectively tuned in with the use of datalogging and a wideband...knowing what the afr is doing is very
important......
So, when you take the car out for a run log it everytime, try and sit on the areas where the car is not running correctly, then come back, open a
beer, and do some analysis....look cloesly at what the AFR is doing when you have the problems...Is it too high / low - Would also suggest you do not
use the wide band to change the afr when you are doing analysis. It's better to hone in on a map and get it as close to possible as you can
before letting the wideband take control......
I'm by no means an expert on this, I'm yet to get my EDIS working correctly, but, this was the process I went through to get the car
'almost working'.....And as mentioned, it's not easy getting good answers from the MS forum...So hope fully this will help in some
way.
Paul.
Forgot to add, my car has a 2ltr cvh engine with a 290 duration cam, and idles perfectly at around 1000-1100rpm with 14 AFR....So this should not be
an issue.
[Edited on 22/5/08 by Jenko]
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DaveFJ
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| posted on 22/5/08 at 04:27 PM |
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excellent
I knew some of that but it has confirmed it in my mind
Thanks fella
Dave
"In Support of Help the Heroes" - Always
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DaveFJ
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| posted on 22/5/08 at 09:53 PM |
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Apologies... I seem to hijacked this thread a bit! But just wanted to thank Jenko for his advice...
I tried one of the maps off the megajolt site and the car is much happier
there is now no popping or backfireing...
Now I have to deal with a massive flat spot low down in the range but I think the spark table is pretty good
so now going to fiddle with the VE table and see whaty I can achieve
cheers again
Dave
"In Support of Help the Heroes" - Always
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