Fred W B
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| posted on 26/9/07 at 12:56 PM |
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You're not looking for a lot - I would just "cold set" - bend the wishbone until it slips in. Does your bench vice open far
enough?
Not exactly right but it will work.
Looking back at the pic now, seem those front brackets may just save you the trouble and drop off all by themselves - Are they all like that?
Fred W B
[Edited on 26/9/07 by Fred W B]
You can do it quickly. You can do it cheap. You can do it right. – Pick any two.
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 26/9/07 at 01:39 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Fred W B
Looking back at the pic now, seem those front brackets may just save you the trouble and drop off all by themselves - Are they all like that?
I share your thoughts on that!
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procomp
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| posted on 26/9/07 at 01:40 PM |
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Hi well it still amazes me that people think that this sort of tolerance from certain manufacturers is actually acceptable even on the basic parts of
the cars.
Lets just hope that some of the recent price rises that most of the manufacturers have done over the recent past will mean that they can now afford to
take a bit more time when manufacturing to bring the quality up on the basic fit of certain parts  .
Espesialy when for little more money you can move up in to the world of kitcars where the quality is much higher. Makes westfields seem quite cheap
when you consider the quality.
cheers matt
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BenB
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| posted on 26/9/07 at 01:55 PM |
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Polybush just replied to say
The crush tube should be clamped tightly in all cases so it doesn't rotate on or wear the bolt it rides on.
Don't worry about the Polyurethane wearing out - it has excellent abrasion resistance and will last for a long time in comparison to almost any
other material you care to name.
To get the best life out of your Polybushes, assemble them dry (no oil or grease) so they grip the tubes and housings rather than move inside them, so
most movement is taken up in the material, rather than in friction and wear.
Best regards
Ian Dickin
Product Manager
Polybush
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westcost1
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| posted on 26/9/07 at 02:22 PM |
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this is why i take the diy approach at least then it you f**k it up the first time you can do it right the second lol or third time lol
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 26/9/07 at 03:03 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by BenB
To get the best life out of your Polybushes, assemble them dry (no oil or grease) so they grip the tubes and housings rather than move inside them, so
most movement is taken up in the material, rather than in friction and wear.
That makes sense, you rely on the friction between the crush tube and the bush to allow some deformation of the polybush rather than relying purely on
rotation around the crush tube. It does make assembling a bit of a PITA though if they are particularly tight.
However, I bought some polybushes some years ago from my Astra and they came with a sachet of grease.
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another_dom
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| posted on 26/9/07 at 03:43 PM |
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If polybushes are very tight, and you prefer not to grease them, you will find they soften up nicely in hot water and will assemble much easier.
Going back to the original question - I agree with the comments above! Wishbones will distort when welded but not to that degree, and the brackets do
look very light given the accurate location and heavy loading involved. I would advise taking the time to correct it now, rather than hoping
it'll be alright when assembled.
Good luck,
Dom.
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ned
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| posted on 26/9/07 at 03:57 PM |
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Just another comment, I would (or maybe should?) be very suprised if a manufacturers wishbones were to distort during manufacture. You'd hope a
good manufacturer would have a decent jig where the bush tube and balljoint mounting face are bolted or clamped in place whilst they are welded so
there should be no distortion of these critical points on the wishbones.
I am not havng a dig at mk in any way, just commenting on the original question asked in this thread from the pictures given.
IMHO..
Ned.
[Edited on 26/9/07 by ned]
beware, I've got yellow skin
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zilspeed
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| posted on 26/9/07 at 04:05 PM |
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I have to say that all of this surprises me.
The fit of the bones to the chassis, the way the brackets are attached to the chassis, and the attitude of the manufacturer.
It's certainly true that it really isn't ideal - any of it.
Is it really so much more difficult to get it really right than sort of almost right and just hammer it in the rest of the way ?
I really can't see Westfield or Caterham supplying parts like that - or the owners accepting such a standard.
As I said, I'm genuinely surprised.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 26/9/07 at 04:10 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by BenB
It's complicated re the crush tubes eh?
I know the logic is that hard plastics will be able to rotate around a crush tube (therefore you want a crush tube slightly longer than the bush) but
if the rotation is free and without restriction why are you advised to not tighten the bolts up until the car is on the ground and weight-bearing?
That would suggest the bush is also clamped at a neutral setting and the resiliance of the bush to twisting is used....
Haven't read the whole thread so this is probably repeating what others have said, but you are wrong!!!
The bushes are supposed to rotate about the crush tube with a little clearance at each end (just enough to rotate freely)
RUBBER bushes are different and these are bonded to the crush tube and they then flex. It is these that must be tightened when the car is at ride
height, so the bush is stretched equally both ways.
polyurethane or other plastic bushes can be tightened at any height.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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NS Dev
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| posted on 26/9/07 at 04:18 PM |
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PS if you assemble them dry, so they grip to limit the sliding, as polybush suggest, then they will creak like fcuk, as the polyurethane grips and
lets go.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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stevec
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| posted on 26/9/07 at 05:53 PM |
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I cant believe that there are still people getting this bush thing wrong.
MikeRJ is correct. how the F*** can it be any other way.
Steve.
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procomp
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| posted on 26/9/07 at 06:05 PM |
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Hi i think there is quite some confusion between what is a polly bush. IE superflex type bushes and what the locost industry are using wich is just a
cheap general bush that was never desighned to be used as a suspension bush.
cheers matt
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 27/9/07 at 11:18 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by procomp
Hi i think there is quite some confusion between what is a polly bush. IE superflex type bushes and what the locost industry are using wich is just a
cheap general bush that was never desighned to be used as a suspension bush.
cheers matt
Perhaps a market possibility for Superflex et al to clone the hard plastic bushes using their own material? I think people would buy them if they
didn't charge ridiculous amounts for a set.
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omega 24 v6
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| posted on 27/9/07 at 11:35 AM |
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Sorry but back to the original posting and I'm astounded that so many of you think the tolerance on the brackets can be sorted by a good
hammering. The grind away the bush till it fits is a better idea but the real issue is why the Fcuk are any of you prepared to accept shite
workmanship like this when you've paid good money for it to be correct??
I remember a post not so long ago when a certain chassis was an exception to the usual good quality many of you have experienced. Now we see a repeat
of much and such the same.
My advice would be to get them to sort it PROPERLY and at their expense. It is a critical part of the car and should not be put under additional
strain by hammering it in to fit. All IMHO of course.
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
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Fozzie
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| posted on 27/9/07 at 12:25 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by omega 24 v6
..................My advice would be to get them to sort it PROPERLY and at their expense. It is a critical part of the car and should not be put
under additional strain by hammering it in to fit. All IMHO of course. [/quote
^ ^ ^ ^......... Spot On....
Also IMHO ......
Fozzie 
'Racing is Life!...anything before or after is just waiting'....Steve McQueen
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kb58
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| posted on 27/9/07 at 01:10 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by BenB
Polybush just replied to say
The crush tube should be clamped tightly in all cases so it doesn't rotate on or wear the bolt it rides on.
Don't worry about the Polyurethane wearing out - it has excellent abrasion resistance and will last for a long time in comparison to almost any
other material you care to name.
To get the best life out of your Polybushes, assemble them dry (no oil or grease) so they grip the tubes and housings rather than move inside them, so
most movement is taken up in the material, rather than in friction and wear.
Best regards
Ian Dickin
Product Manager
Polybush
About the bushings, think about how it all comes together and it makes sense. The crush tube is there to prevent the bolts from tightening up
everything so that nothing moves (and also bending the brackets). Therefore, the crush tube does not move once tightened down. The A-arms do move, so
there's only two places where the bushings can slide: between the bushing and the A-arm, or between the bushing and the crush tube. Since there
is much more surface area between the bushing and the A-arm, it will be more resistant to slipping there, so all slipping - pivoting really - occurs
between the bushing and the crush tube. You MUST have the crush tube!
Mid-engine Locost - http://www.midlana.com
And the book - http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/midlana/paperback/product-21330662.html
Kimini - a tube-frame, carbon shell, Honda Prelude VTEC mid-engine Mini: http://www.kimini.com
And its book -
http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/kimini-how-to-design-and-build-a-mid-engine-sports-car-from-scratch/paperback/product-4858803.html
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kb58
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| posted on 27/9/07 at 01:14 PM |
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About the A-arms not fitting, anyone who thinks heat distortion can't cause that hasn't welded the inside corners of tubes! That said,
heat distortion is very well known, so it's no excuse here. If nothing else, the welding jig can space the arms slightly further apart so that
it's perfect once they pull in towards each other. These A-arms simply aren't made very well.
Mid-engine Locost - http://www.midlana.com
And the book - http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/midlana/paperback/product-21330662.html
Kimini - a tube-frame, carbon shell, Honda Prelude VTEC mid-engine Mini: http://www.kimini.com
And its book -
http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/kimini-how-to-design-and-build-a-mid-engine-sports-car-from-scratch/paperback/product-4858803.html
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procomp
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| posted on 27/9/07 at 01:46 PM |
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Hi yes obviously the wishbones move when welded. But shurley the manufacturer should make shure that it will fit back in the jig as such before
letting them out into the market place.
But the main problem is the fact that if you take some of the manufacturer's and acurattly measure the tolerance of the brackets and there
position you would seriously wonder if they are actually using jigs at all. Unless 1/2 inch tolerance is what they call acceptable these days.
Also if you investigate further you will find that such poor tolerance's are over the whole car. Hence there are cars out there with upto an
inch difference in the wheelbace either side.
However this level of tolerances is obviously accepted by many owners because thier manufacturer says " they are all like that. And we have a
reputation for good handeling cars " .
It really is about time that some of the manufacturers decide to get thier act together and stop BS ing thier customers. And also that people building
cars from whichever manufacturer started taking some of the basics a bit more seriously instead of just accepting the BS they are told. And realise
that in the larger world of kitcars these sort of tolerance levels are just not acceptable these days.
PS in reply to one email i recived. No i am not soley talking about one paticular manufacturer but a few of them.
Cheers matt
Sorry rant over
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MikeR
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| posted on 27/9/07 at 01:50 PM |
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Its times like this i'm glad i made my own chassis.
Yeah i'm having real hassle getting my head round problems that bought chassis would just be done (like how far to make the spacer for the
clutch cable to) but at least i know i spent a year scratching my head over the front suspension before i realised my jig was 5mm out, remade it and
welded it all together. In fact i think i am too an*l as i'm replacing my capri axle due to being 3mm out on a mounting bracket (plus the escort
is lighter).
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Fred W B
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| posted on 27/9/07 at 01:59 PM |
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A mate of mine once said to me the beauty of doing stuff yourself is that you can do it to your own standard.
That said, thats why we take years to build a car while others take weeks, or days? - even hours?
OT but the benchmark for a tintop nowadays is something like 20 odd assembly labour hours
Cheers
Fred W B
You can do it quickly. You can do it cheap. You can do it right. – Pick any two.
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zilspeed
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| posted on 27/9/07 at 04:18 PM |
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It almost makes me glas that my old tub (pictured left) uses a bolt on assembly from the donor.
A fairly well regarded set up admittedly.
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D Beddows
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| posted on 28/9/07 at 11:19 PM |
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Aside from all the above issues.....nobody has mentioned that on a purely practical level if you install the wishbones with a big hammer you'll
find that, because you've bent them, the bolt holes on the brackets don't line up any more.......and the bolts wont fit through.....
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MikeR
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| posted on 29/9/07 at 12:01 PM |
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ah, but if you put a bolt through when you hit the wishbones then they'll stay lined up.......
plus the bolt holes will have been drilled bigger to take this into account!
(tongue firmly in cheek)
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Syd Bridge
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| posted on 29/9/07 at 04:39 PM |
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quote:
Perhaps a market possibility for Superflex et al to clone the hard plastic bushes using their own material? I think people would buy them if they
didn't charge ridiculous amounts for a set.
You might look at SuperPro bushes, they do just as you have suggested, and have done for many years. And they're Aussies as well! They have a
very good UK agent, who is a joy to do business with, and really knows his stuff, and will search out any sized bush you ask for.
They do a nice bush to replace the Triumph Y419's, as mentioned in The Book. I'm putting them on the rear of the racers. Also do a TVR
bush that I use for gearbox and engine mounts, that fits inside 1.25" OD 10G tube.
http://www.superpro.eu.com/
Cheers,
Syd. 
[Edited on 29/9/07 by Syd Bridge]
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