philgregson
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| posted on 29/8/02 at 08:51 PM |
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Torque
I've been pondering today over the whole engine thing and it occurs to me that I have fallen into the BHP trap like everyone else.
I know BHP figures and power to weight ratios are easy to understand and locosts can produce figures to make the hot hatch boys shake in their Novas
but surely the natural habitat of the locost is the windy 'b' road where I would have thought torque was more important. You can't quite beat the
feeling of all that bottom end grunt pulling you out of corners.
Now I know already that I have lost the argument already when it comes to the 'Jap boys' but surely there is some argument for the big V6 and V8
lumps even though the power to weight isn't that good.
Any thoughts?
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Metal Hippy™
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 posted on 29/8/02 at 08:53 PM |
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Well I'm using a 3.5 litre BMW straight 6.
229lb/ft of torque.
Should just about be enough I think...
President of the Non-conformist Locost Builders Club. E-mail for details...
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philgregson
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| posted on 29/8/02 at 09:04 PM |
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Where I'm leading here - and I almost embarrass my self thinking it - is that maybe the turbo diesel boys have a point.
Two things got me to this line of thinking:
I was driving a works van - one of those little fiat 2litre turbo things - and boy did it grunt out of bends in a way that brought a grin to my
face.
Secondly on the way home from the office the other day in my own car I got soundly thrashed by a VW turbo diesel pulling up a hill. He couldn't keep
it up as the speeds increased but the initial accelerfation away at the bottom was mighty impressive.
'There might be something to this torquey diesel thing' I thought. This is probably what I want from my locost - not high speeds but the ability to
grunt through those windy 'b' roads.
Still not sure about the stink and sounding like a tractor though!
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Metal Hippy™
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| posted on 29/8/02 at 09:13 PM |
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Diesels are lovely, yeah.
In a van or an estate car that has to shift a load.
Not in a sportscar that is supposed to sound good as well as look it....
My opinion of course, but I bet many agree with me?
President of the Non-conformist Locost Builders Club. E-mail for details...
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philgregson
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| posted on 29/8/02 at 09:18 PM |
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I agree entirely about the sound and you're right diesel in a sports car just sounds wrong. Mind you isn't the best performing VW golf in the range
a TDi -whether that is a comment on the diesel or the other models I don't know!
Also wouldn't eating Novas at traffic lights be even funnier in a diesel, especially when you left soot all over all that glue on plastic they cover
them in!!
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Metal Hippy™
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| posted on 29/8/02 at 09:25 PM |
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Yeah, it would be kinda funny.
But wouldn't you rather do it in style with a nice sound instead of leaving a black cloud?
President of the Non-conformist Locost Builders Club. E-mail for details...
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philgregson
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| posted on 29/8/02 at 09:28 PM |
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Well at the end of the day I would!
I was just running the concept by every one - I've had some perverse thoughts in my time but that one was worrying me!!
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Metal Hippy™
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| posted on 29/8/02 at 09:32 PM |
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Hehe...
While you're seeing the light, leave it there and never look at this topic again in case somebody tries to argue for a diesel..
President of the Non-conformist Locost Builders Club. E-mail for details...
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theconrodkid
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| posted on 29/8/02 at 09:43 PM |
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As the exhaust should exit next to you or your passenger i think your life expectancy would be rather short 
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philgregson
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| posted on 29/8/02 at 09:48 PM |
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A form of natural selection I suspect!! 
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philgregson
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| posted on 29/8/02 at 09:52 PM |
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Anyhow I refer to my original point should we place more emphasis on achieving high torque or high BHP?
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locodude
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| posted on 29/8/02 at 11:15 PM |
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1700 x-flow, twin 40's, 224 kent cam (1000-6500rpm) yes the cam comes in at tickover. V. torquey slow corners no probs v. lazy. Makes the Ison blade
sound like an electric shaver. A fu***ng quick shaver though!!!!
Chris PTM
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Dunc
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| posted on 30/8/02 at 10:14 AM |
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I was driving one of my donors a few months back on the motorway, 2.9i V6 4x4. 80mph behind a BMW 330D and the bugger pulled away from me, even though
I'd dropped the gears and floored it, but like every other german car driver, merc's bm's vag's, they dare not go over 100, so eventually I got
past him, once he eventually moved over. Must be a superiority thing, I own the road but I'm too scared to lose my licence.
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philgregson
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| posted on 30/8/02 at 11:58 AM |
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There you go - Initial low down grunt - surely what we need rather than ultimate top end power.
As my car is primarily for road use I expect to be spending considerably more time pulling out of bends, away from lights and up hills etc. than I am
cruising at plus 100 mph speeds.
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kingr
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| posted on 30/8/02 at 02:43 PM |
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Just to clear up the question earlier, the TDI is of similar performance to the GTI, which is a 1.8 turbo, it's got appoximately equal BHP but a bit
more torque. There are two Golfs above the GTI/TDI, the V5 and the V6, both of which have bags of BHP and enough torque to pull you up a cliff.
I think a locost would probably be one of the least suitable things to put a diesel into given their light weight.
I'll grant you that I'm not in the slightest bit knowledgeable about motorbikes, but I've never heard of a diesel one. This should be a pretty good
indication that they're unsuitable for locosts.
kingr
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philgregson
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| posted on 30/8/02 at 02:47 PM |
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Enfield out in India produced a diesel motorbike until quite recently (The only one ever produced I belive).
It was by all accounts crap in almost every respect but fuel consumption.
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interestedparty
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| posted on 30/8/02 at 04:46 PM |
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I believe diesels are popular with tractor makers, and they are also used in lorries. Nobody else has a good reason for using them.
John
As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
I've got a little list-- I've got a little list
Of society offenders who might well be underground,
And who never would be missed-- who never would be missed!
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 30/8/02 at 05:00 PM |
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2pence worth from me......
we recently went over the cat n fiddle, very tight n twisty, hairpins, up hill, down hill, you name it that roads got it, other than any straight bit
over 200yds.....now i don't know how hard the others where trying, but we had to wait a long time at other end B4 they appeared, therefor i have to
disagree, BECS are made for twisty bits.....
now i got bugger all "tourque" but i know i can get over there faster than 75% of anything else on 4 wheels, yeah i had to drive the pants off it
and driving a BEC is an aquired taste it can be very frantic at times but thats what i (we) build em for.....
one other point.... if he's struggling out of a corner he's in the wrong gear....with six to play with one should place you into the power band.
and to finish ask yourself this Q ?.......why where BECS baned from racing in the N/A 1700cc class whith engines half the size and no more BHP and 1/2
the torque ?
correct, they where winning everything.
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 30/8/02 at 05:07 PM |
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ive read my post agian, dint think i was biting, just puting the other point of view.....
it did end with a
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 30/8/02 at 05:22 PM |
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but in our case we can only dream of torque,
James...yours will be the 2nd pint i buy at donnington, (mine will b the 1st...)
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 30/8/02 at 05:30 PM |
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seems apropiate.....posted on the BEC list today.....
"Kemble was fantastic, and I managed to get a passenger ride in a stripped
out Impreza RA running slicks (250Bhp basis for the Group A cars). Can't
believe I ever thought these were fast cars they are positively sedate in
comparison to the Fury Blade, and cornering (and I'm not even running
slicks) is an entirely different world.
Myself , another BEC (Stuart Taylor), a V8 RWD Mk3 Escort, Noble and a 340r
were the fastest cars on the day - at least of the ones that were out with
me. The guy in the 340R was seriously talented, running nearly 10s faster
than me and it's not exactly a big circuit (about 1m 20 second laps).
Good mix of cars and abilities made it a very exciting day, there were two
'U-Drive' cars (Impreza + Evo) which were sort of annoying mobile chicanes.
Ps Anyone know why Caterham drivers never give way ? I sat behind one for 4
laps before giving up being nice and overtook him anyway."
bet you wanna see the reply to his last Q...its a good en.......
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locodude
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| posted on 30/8/02 at 07:36 PM |
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All the revs, all the torque in the world is no good if you don't know the way. Knowledge is power. I'll lead the way tommorrow in my slow and oily
CEC (car engined car).
Chris PTM
BTW re: cat and fiddle. You DO have a fast car Jon but you are also a fu**ing lunatic. I think I may actually see my pension!
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philgregson
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| posted on 30/8/02 at 08:01 PM |
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I guess that in a sense BECs are producing plenty of torque at the wheels by virtue of the extra gearing from the engine compared with a CEC.
Technically speaking is low gearing a substitute for engine torque or does it behave differently?
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