w.olly
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| posted on 14/4/12 at 05:21 PM |
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4x4 better traction?? must be.
As we know the Locost and others are graet fun on the back end flying all over and loss of traction, this is the thinking by me and a 4x4, i am sure
it is the same of others who try a 4x4 build, i am trying to do a sierra version as i believe this has the 40% front and 60% rear drive so fairly
good divide.
I always buld what i want, just to see, if it doesnt it doesnt work, but i tried and enjoyed the build. But this time i am considering it a bit
more.
All best
wolly
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JoelP
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| posted on 14/4/12 at 05:55 PM |
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Many people argue that the extra weight isnt worth the grip, especially when you think that 4x4s often dont handle well anyway. Quite like the idea
myself, if you have enough power to need it!
Why not build a bike engined locost and but a cossy engine in the Umm?
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franky
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| posted on 14/4/12 at 06:08 PM |
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Surely the best type would be a haldex system like fitted to an s3, except get it to work so the front only drives when the rear spins?
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w.olly
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| posted on 14/4/12 at 06:29 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
Many people argue that the extra weight isnt worth the grip, especially when you think that 4x4s often dont handle well anyway. Quite like the idea
myself, if you have enough power to need it!
Why not build a bike engined locost and but a cossy engine in the Umm?
Just to say i want to build a sierra 4x4 24v cossie engine, these are only around 50kg heavier than a pinto set up, so for around 60hp+, dependig on
the cossie its not bad, i have driven a few 4x4`s on road and find the grip is so much better, i once drove a 2.0i 4x4 sapphire and a RWD, my god you
could tell the difference.
Not into the bike engine conversions, and the cost and messing with the G box nah not for me.
Oh and the UMM is up for sale soon to fund my new toy
quote:
Surely the best type would be a haldex system like fitted to an s3, except get it to work so the front only drives when the rear spins?
You lost me there kida LOL, aint a clue what all that is.
wolly
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Volvorsport
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| posted on 14/4/12 at 06:50 PM |
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its been proved in production cars that traction control provide the same control , so unless its really muddy like a rally stage then i cant see an
advantage in 4x4 . it wont be as much fun building a car with 4x4 tho.....
also using a haldex system wont allow for lurid 4 wheel powerslides either !!!
www.dbsmotorsport.co.uk
getting dirty under a bus
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franky
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| posted on 14/4/12 at 06:59 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Volvorsport
its been proved in production cars that traction control provide the same control , so unless its really muddy like a rally stage then i cant see an
advantage in 4x4 . it wont be as much fun building a car with 4x4 tho.....
also using a haldex system wont allow for lurid 4 wheel powerslides either !!!
It would if you've got enough power! I can do it my my a3 in the wet/ice
As above though, my m3 engined car didn't have any traction issues off the line with the T/C off, with it set to 11% slip you could slide and
drive forward at the same time. In the wet you could put switch it into a wet setting or very low slip and still make rude progress
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Volvorsport
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| posted on 14/4/12 at 07:08 PM |
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It would if you've got enough power! I can do it my my a3 in the wet/ice
so it was YOU around lincoln then......
www.dbsmotorsport.co.uk
getting dirty under a bus
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franky
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| posted on 14/4/12 at 07:19 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Volvorsport
It would if you've got enough power! I can do it my my a3 in the wet/ice
so it was YOU around lincoln then......
On the back roads around Bassingham/Auborn/swinderby yes, not anywhere where my lack of skill would cause me to stick other people in a ditch
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w.olly
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| posted on 14/4/12 at 07:35 PM |
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Ah now we have the power slide bit, if the locost is so light, even with a 4x4 set up then with the power ( 200bhp + ) you get with the correct engine
then you will get power slide when you want, and in the dry better grip?
Why wont it it be as much fun to build a 4x4?
Production cars are a different matter, yes?
Its the idea for me, not many have done it, BUT it can be done, time is the thing and gaining knowledge of how to build to me.
wolly
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ali f27
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| posted on 14/4/12 at 08:17 PM |
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hi we used 4x4 sierra and 2.3 scorpio honda throttle bodies and made 200 horse go on you know you want to
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 15/4/12 at 12:38 AM |
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quote:
its been proved in production cars that traction control provide the same control ,
Really not sure what you're saying there but there's simply no way two tyres can generate the same acceleration as 4 due to the ultimate
traction limit on each tyre. Possibly when cornering, yes, but who builds traction control into a locost, and even if you transferred the OEM system
into the car it's unlikely to be optimal as it'll be tuned to react to the heavy tin top parameters, not a super-light car.
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Volvorsport
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| posted on 15/4/12 at 09:50 AM |
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let me clarify then......
4wd was thought to improve control because of the torque split , but if you apply traction control which stops the wheelspin and reduces the torque at
the wheel its the same effect .
4x4 in production cars were no faster because of th 4x4 compared to a well setup traction control system .
it may feel safer , but is it any quicker .
200 hp with 4x4 and extra weight against 200 hp with traction control and no weight penalty ?
and like i said , only in a muddy gravel stage where the wheels are permanently in slip will th 4x4 come to the front
everything else being equal of course , build the car , itll be more fun than a std one with traction control
www.dbsmotorsport.co.uk
getting dirty under a bus
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w.olly
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| posted on 15/4/12 at 12:49 PM |
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Bets thing to do is to see who has actualy completed the built and take it for a spin along with a standard one to see if there is any difference, it
seems that a lot of folk say it will not be any benefit, but has any body actualy driven a Locost or similar buld, haynes in a 4x4 version?
I see your point about prodcution cars but i am sure they would be a different in the way the handle etc.
For me the 4x4 is not for more speed but to get a better handling car, grip in the corners etc and off the mark.
What is the extra cost involved to make it so much more expensive therefore not worth doing, to not be worth doing i would say in the thousands more
to build than a RWD, if its in the hundreds then it no loss.
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britishtrident
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| posted on 15/4/12 at 01:14 PM |
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The whole point of Seven style cars is delicate very precise single seater handling, with this in mind 4x4,heavy over sized engines and big wheels
are counter productive.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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w.olly
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| posted on 15/4/12 at 02:25 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
The whole point of Seven style cars is delicate very precise single seater handling, with this in mind 4x4,heavy over sized engines and big wheels
are counter productive.
That mite be but what i want is to build a car, i am not a purist but a builder of big boys toys, and what is an extra 50-60kg with a 4x4, thats on a
ford conversion. What happens when there is a passenger in a standard roadster as they are 2 seater cars, other wise we could save weight there
aswell, around another 70kg inc passenger.
Over size wheels, 17`s or 18`s are not that big a difference towards 15`s , depending on what is got, what is an over size engine realy as weight is
very litlle as also BHP, some V engines give better torque though.
I am not picking but i would like to see a real reason why a 4x4 will not make enough difference to the drive/handling, i would gladly build a
standard roadster, but thats all been done over and over, i always like to think that if you intend to do it, do it first time. whole hog type of
thing
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 16/4/12 at 10:14 AM |
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quote:
The whole point of Seven style cars is delicate very precise single seater handling, with this in mind 4x4,heavy over sized engines and big wheels are
counter productive.
The whole point of a locost style car, if I may be so brash, is for it to be everything the builder wants. Not for it to be everything some unrelated
person wanted. And regardless of the original design, a 4x4 system will still be lighter and better handling in a 7-esque car than in the original, so
while it may not be the pinnacle of matching the original design targets, it's still going to be what the owner wants.
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Liam
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| posted on 16/4/12 at 06:44 PM |
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It's certainly not neccessary and I wouldn't even say it would lead to a superior Seven. Just a different one. I am doing it for the
technical challenge, the 'because I can' attitude, and because I like the driving dynamics of a 4WD better than RWD. Give me Scooby, Evo,
GTR etc etc any day over M3, Supra, muscle car, etc etc.
Referring to your title question - better traction in some conditions - yeah of course. Maybe 4WD would have saved a few Sevens that have been binned,
but I wouldn't say any of that is reason enough to go to the trouble of making your toy car 4WD - you need the above first. Traction, safety,
etc are other pros, but there are plenty of cons too.
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nickm
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| posted on 16/4/12 at 07:18 PM |
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Hi
I always thought that the theoretical perfect car was mid engined and rwd and the perfect wieght distribuition was between 40/60 to 45/55 ? .
Most race cars in the world are rwd, most purists would argue that the wheels that steer shouldnt have drive. You hardly see any 4 wheel drive cars on
the track.
In the wet though you,d have the edge.
Nick M
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jonno
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| posted on 16/4/12 at 07:57 PM |
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You don't see many Dax rush 4 x 4 (Quadra) about !! Not sure if its the concept or the price thou.
Anyway its your build if you want and feel you can.. why not make it 4x4 
having fun on a budget
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gottabedone
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| posted on 16/4/12 at 08:03 PM |
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Well I'm not a purist and I believe that the vast majority of our cars meet a fraction of their potential. That may be because of our skill
levels, setup of engine/suspension/brakes etc. A car that doesn't meet someone elses version of the ideal car isn't necessarily crap
it's what our cars are - different
My GTM was huuuuuuuuuge amounts of fun
It was mid engined RWD and dare I say it used the whole drivetrain from a Metro GTI.....yup the running gear from a Metro boys and girls.
My Minari is front wheel drive and uses the running gear from an Alfa 33/Sud. Those of us old enough will know what a hoot the Sud was to
drive......and yup it's more fun in a Minari. Oh and another taboo subject, the driven wheels are doing the steering as well.
I say go for it, make it what you want it to be and have fun in it
Steve
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Liam
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| posted on 16/4/12 at 09:13 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by nickm
Hi
I always thought that the theoretical perfect car was mid engined and rwd and the perfect wieght distribuition was between 40/60 to 45/55 ? .
Most race cars in the world are rwd, most purists would argue that the wheels that steer shouldnt have drive. You hardly see any 4 wheel drive cars on
the track.
In the wet though you,d have the edge.
Nick M
I dunno - you could look at rallying and how within a year or so of the introduction of 4WD, it completely dominated RWD, even on tarmac rallies; or
when DTM spiralled out of any financial control and imploded - they were going 4WD; or the success of the Audi Quattro in BTCC before it was
success-ballasted out of competitiveness; or the dominance over almost everything of a Nissan GTR, and to a slightly lesser extent Evos and the
like.
F1 and single seaters in general I guess are where 4WD would have least impact, as they are so compactly packaged and light that the weight penalty
would have the most disadvantageous effect, and the huge downforce means the traction gains would have least benefit. Even so I'd wager a modern
F1 car could use a modern hybrid style setup with electric motor power to front wheels to good effect. The reality is 4WD is banned in pretty much any
racing apart from rally. That's why you dont see it much on track really. I'd say that the 'theoretical perfect car', if it
has four wheels, ought to have all four driven and steered. In theory.
But all that aside, theoretical laptimes, SAE papers on vehicle dynamics, articles from Racecar Engineering and copious armchair engineering should,
imho, be nowhere near the list of considerations regarding making a toy car for the fun of the build and for weekend blasts on the road or track by
amateur drivers like us. It should all be about doing what you want and enjoying the build and the result.
[Edited on 16/4/12 by Liam]
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