Steve Lovelock
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| posted on 9/9/04 at 06:03 AM |
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Vauxhall 16V - Complete costs
Hello,
I know this has been gone over before but I can’t find a complete list of parts required and prices for all the bits required to fit a 16V in a
locost. I am thinking of fitting DCOE's, know that I need a type 9 adapter plate and a sump but am not sure what else would be required. I
definitely want to know how much the whole thing will work out at before I start. Any ideas?
Steve
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DarrenW
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| posted on 9/9/04 at 06:42 AM |
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I looked into this recently. Had chance of donor for around £250 so thought i was on track for cheap power until i was told;
Modified sump - approx 150 (yukspeed) (Could get steel Manta sump and modify it yourself)
Bellhousing - approx 200 (yukspeed?)(or use VX gearbox - Manta or Carlton??)
Twin 45 dellortos (not Webbers?) - approx 300 2nd hand
Inlet manifold - ??
Ignition - either use Cavalier distributor (cheap) or OMEX style ignition (approx 400).
Clutch - various bits - approx 200.
I was told the Cavalier ignition would not be mapped correctly and could result in power being well down from std. Best results would be with throttle
body set up and 3D mappable equipment - approx 2000.
I saw a website with second hand carbs and ignition set up for about 800.
If you are careful i think it can be done on a budget but it still starts to add up to a costly package. Done properley and the power gains are
healthy.
I was eventually recommended to go Zetec route - engine for about 350 and single injection plenum setup for about 850 (Mac#1 motorsport). Bolts to std
Type 9 and clutch is cheaper.
My choice is to go for std Pinto to get car running and possibly 2.1 or Zetec later as another winter project.
I hope this helps. Ned has looked more seriously at 16v XE. He will probably be able to help more.
Darren.
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marc n
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| posted on 9/9/04 at 06:43 AM |
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it may be of interest to you but i am currently having a few inlet manifolds made to run bike carbs instead of the dcoes, the manifold should be in
the region of £200 - £220 then add a set of blackbird carbs £50 - £100
we have done this because of the large amounts that the webbers go for second hand, and in most cases by the time you have rebuilt them and got your
manifold you can be easily into £600 - £ 700
regards
marc
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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marc n
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| posted on 9/9/04 at 06:56 AM |
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hi darren
think you will find though that the zetec will still require a shortened sump, to be able to obtain a reasonable ridehieght witout having to mount the
engine so high, zetce nearly two inches taller than 16v vauxhall,
On the distributor side, there are a lot of people running the cav distributor and still giving good bhp, many grasstrack boys have gone down this
route, including one former champion ( against 215 bhp qed lumps ), it all depends on the knowledge and expertise of the rolling road company to get
the best out of the setup
regards
marc
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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mackie
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| posted on 9/9/04 at 07:57 AM |
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You could build a tb system for much much less than £2000 using old carbs and a megasquirt diy ecu.
I'm not sure if megasquirt can control GM ignition systems yet but I'm sure someone must be working on it.
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James
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| posted on 9/9/04 at 08:31 AM |
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You don't need Megasquirt to control the Gm ignition system- Megasquirt just controls the fuel. The ignition system is independent. You can use
Megajolt to do ignition.
Anyway, to be honest, when it comes to the XE there's an even easier way than old carbs to make Throttle Bodies- and that's the TBs from a
Honda Blackbird. Apart from needing a spacer between the two pairs the blackbird setup (at approx £75!) is a bolt on fit I gather!
HTH,
James
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DarrenW
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| posted on 9/9/04 at 08:56 AM |
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Hi Marc,
I think you are absolutely right when it comes to setting up one of these. As you know i'm no expert so this is probably what shied me away from
this set up. Alan maybe the best person to write up a tried and tested spec as a starting point. There seems to be so many options and (dare i say it)
old wives tales as to what works and what doesnt. To the beginner this is quite daunting.
I also had it suggested to me that the early Coscast heads are great. The later VX copies not so and are prone to cracking. With the engines getting a
little older then thinking about re-builds is sensible. This could obviously add to the overall costs.
You are right about Zetec - plenty of costs to consider to make them run in a locost. I picked the Pinto in the end because ive never re-built an
engine before and this seems to offer a decent platform to cut my teeth on. Additionally my driving skills dont need so much power at present so i can
develop bhp as my track skills develop in the future (keeps my easily bored brain active!!).
i will try to send you U2U.
All the best,
Darren.
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ned
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| posted on 9/9/04 at 09:01 AM |
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xe costs:
locost:
2ltr 8v steel sump, cut + weld to shorten or standard manta sump (scrappy)
1.6 cav dizzy (scrappy)
bellhousing £180 new, around £100 s/h with type 9 box or manta/carlton box (scrappy) fits straight up (saw a fisher fury at donington with an xe and
carlton box)
inlet manifold £110new, around £60 s/h
could always cut down the standard plenum like they do with the 4age and run standard injection + ecu, no carbs, inlet manifold or different dizzy
then.
use standard vx clutch cover with sierra friction plate (from donor)
spigot bearing £7
clutch fork £12
upton 200bhp will run just as well on twin40's to save on cost of 45's or bike carbs with modded inlet manifold
exhaust diy kit from yukspeed, £110 i think, though he's had them on ebay recently at about £90
hicost:
caterham/westfield cast ally sump £220new
bellhousing £180new
inlet manifold £110 new
sierra clutch
spigot £7
hydraulic clutch assembly £50ish new
mbe distributorless kit for carbs £400
weber 45's new £400
or direct to head throttle bodies + fully mapped ecu £2000
custom stainless exhaust £5-600
Ned.
[Edited on 9/9/04 by ned]
beware, I've got yellow skin
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ned
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| posted on 9/9/04 at 09:11 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DarrenW
I also had it suggested to me that the early Coscast heads are great. The later VX copies not so and are prone to cracking. With the engines getting a
little older then thinking about re-builds is sensible. This could obviously add to the overall costs.
coscast heads have slightly better compression by having smaller combustion chambers (about 1-2cc) but the porting casting is not quite so good.
the later gm heads have slightly better porting in the casting but high milage engines (i've heard 100-120k+) can become porous. There is a
weakness in the gm casting between pots 2+3 i think where a crack occurs between the oil + water jackets and you get water in the oil/mix. there are
fixes for this such as plugging hte oilway/rerouting the waterjacket etc but coacast heads don't seem to have this problem. having said that,
after 3-4 years in a race series based on the xe i've only come across one duff head so think it's not worth worrying about. likewise the
difference in compression and porting between gm and coscast heads is no minimal there is no performance gain. i no engine builders who happily use
either type of head. i've also heard it's the latest gm heads (with lugs on the back for the distributorless ignition that are most
prone.
Ned.
beware, I've got yellow skin
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mackie
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| posted on 9/9/04 at 09:24 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by James
You don't need Megasquirt to control the Gm ignition system- Megasquirt just controls the fuel. The ignition system is independent. You can use
Megajolt to do ignition.
Is there not a megasquirt'n'EDIS jobby?
Surely ideally you want to two integrated to some degree? I'm guessing you could fit Ford EDIS gubbins to a vauxhall with few problems.
I quite fancy the idea of building such a system for our V8 at some point although I dunno if it could control 8 coils (could use the wasted spark
principle maybe?).
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James
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| posted on 9/9/04 at 11:20 AM |
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There is MegaJolt, Megajolt Light Junior, Megasquirt'n'Edis and possibly a couple of others. They are pretty much separate additions to
Megasquirt and IIRC developed by people other than the original Bowling and Grippo. You can link them but they work separately too.
The one that interests me most is Megasquirt'n'Spark which is new one using the original Megasquirt hardware to control the sparks aswell.
It's been invented by some genius or other but I don't really know any details yet. I know it's the most intergrated.
Megasquirt2 is the long awaited-for second editon from Bowling and Grippo but it's not out yet and I believe will be somewhat more expensive.
Anyway, I've probably mixed most of that up so check the website for the correct info!
Cheers,
James
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CairB
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| posted on 9/9/04 at 11:56 AM |
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I've built and run a MegaSquirtnEDIS on a pinto, I don't see why it couldn't be applied to a VX. I got the EDIS4, coil pack &
crank pickup from the scrappy and made a 36 (-1) tooth wheel to mount on the front crank pulley.
Cheers,
Colin
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ned
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| posted on 9/9/04 at 12:06 PM |
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an old post by david walker a little way down that is very relevant and useful...
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=2717
Ned.
beware, I've got yellow skin
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Steve Lovelock
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| posted on 9/9/04 at 03:12 PM |
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Blackbird carbs on a special manifold sounds like a good low cost approach, I am shocked by the price of DCOE's second hand and would prefer an
alternative. The electrical plumbing of a TB set up scares me, I would need clear understanding of how it all fits together before I went down that
route. Has anybody got a completed car with this set up?
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stressy
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| posted on 9/9/04 at 07:24 PM |
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TB plumbing
Steve,
the electrical plumbing of throttle bodies as you put it is no different really than plumbing and wiring any other multipoint fuel injection engine.
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Steve Lovelock
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| posted on 9/9/04 at 09:35 PM |
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I think I should have said that the thought of working out the wiring for a multi point fuel injection system on my own in the garage at the end of my
garden seems a little daunting. After all, even the comments on this thread vary to a good degree. So, if I bought a set of throttle bodies from a
sports bike and got them to physically fit on to a Vauxhall 16V engine how would I connect it to a standard 7 style wiring loom and actually work?
(in English please)
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zetec
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| posted on 10/9/04 at 03:35 AM |
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Going back to basics which should hold true for all multipoint injection...
Each injector will have a pair of wires to open and close it when triggered by an ECU, simple as that, switch open fuel from the fuel rail passed thru
to the engine, turned off full stops. Listen to a car with electronic injection and you can hear the injectors clicking away.
You will have a coolant temp sensor, poss air temp sensor these are just like normal guage sensors, 1 wire and earth or 2 wire. A throttle position
sensor to tell the ECU how much the throttle is open. The ECU also needs to know the speed the engine is turning so there will be a crank posistion
sensor.
A lot of the above will be dependent on the ECU you use and what it needs to know about what is happening within the engine to control the ignition
and fuel. Get info on the ECU you intend to use and have a look at it's wiring diagram. As far as connecting to the main loom most just need a
power supply and connections to the fuel pump and engine cooling fan.
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