I love speed :-P
|
| posted on 20/7/06 at 04:54 PM |
|
|
What is Israel doing?
There hasn’t been a discussion on here about it yet, so I thought, I would start one  So what do you lot think about what’s happening down there and
why do you think nobody is doing anything about it?
Phil
Don't Steal
The Government doesn’t like the competition
|
|
|
|
|
D Beddows
|
| posted on 20/7/06 at 05:05 PM |
|
|
America wont do anything because it's Israel, no one will do anything unless America does, there's no oil involved...... lets face it the
Middle East will eventualy be the death of us all but it's an incredibly boring topic 
|
|
|
smart51
|
| posted on 20/7/06 at 05:26 PM |
|
|
Self defence is enough force to stop our attacker and no more. It is also proportionate to the initial attack or to the percieved threat. I'm
not sure that Israel's response is either of these.
Israel is in a difficult position though, surrounder by people whose stated aim is to wipe them off the map.
Generally the Israel / Arab conflict is a difficult one to solve because both sides are wrong. There isn't even a starting point on which to
build a solution.
|
|
|
JoelP
|
| posted on 20/7/06 at 05:48 PM |
|
|
both sides are wrong really. The terrorists for bombing innocents, and being unwilling to persue peace or harmony, and israel for failing, in this
instance, to avoid civilian casualties, and destroying infrastructure etc. Previously they have been wrong in their unfair treatment of the
palestinians.
When hizboollah talk of 'hundreds of arabs in israeli jails', i would love to know exactly what the prisoners have done. Is it random
people arrested on suspicion of allegance to terrorism? People who threw stones at tanks? People who encouraged rebellion? Genuine terrorists? Petty
criminals? Without knowing their crimes, you cant form an opinion on whether they should be freed.
Also, apparently israel has ignored several UN resolutions, it would be interesting to know exactly what these are, as people use this noncompliance
to justify hizbollahs non compliance.
However, as always, two wrongs do not make a right.
I personally believe that hizbollah should be disarmed by force if necessary, but more care must be taken. This current war will do far more harm than
good, as it will create hate and resentment, and foster more anti-jew and anti-west sentiment.
|
|
|
phoenix70
|
| posted on 20/7/06 at 05:54 PM |
|
|
I alway have mixed feelings when Israel is involved, normally it is with the Palistiens, and I always feel that the Terrorist help Israel, if it
wasn't for the terrorist, then Israel would have no reason to invade area of the Palistine state and build settlements on it. It's a
catch 22 situation, like in IRAQ where the insurgents want the Americans out, so they maim and kill people setting off bombs, where if they just
calmed down and let the country settle, then the American would have no excuse to stay in Iraq, so again it is counter productive. I also hate the
way that Israel, alway blames the government of the country for not dealing with the terrorists in the midst, that is just a way of justifing the
action, it would be like America bombing Saudi Arabia cause thats where Osama is from.
Again the issue I think is Israel's action always seems to be excessive compared with the acts of Terrorism. What also doesn't help is
the way that the UN ignores the numerous resolutions that Israel is in breach of, because of America, where some other countries (IRAN) get so much
grief for not complying to one. The sooner Bush is out of office the better, hopefully some more reasonable (and inteligent) may take over, but then
again, its the American people that elect the President so maybe not.
Anyone has ever seem the comedy movie Wag the Dog, will wonder if there isn't an element of truth in the film.
Just a little rant.
Cheers
Scott
|
|
|
tks
|
| posted on 20/7/06 at 05:58 PM |
|
|
the problem with war is
that it never will kill all the hizbollaws..
sow there will always be a small group that like every one on earth grows and grows..and then what happens? over 30years they are strong again and the
song repeats..
the problem with the people from the middle east is that if they think they are right then they don't listen anymore.
what i also dislike is that everything is justified by what (by saying) one men wrotes.......
Israel being the bigger and stronger part should be more intelligent.
i have no idea who is wrong or who is most wrong etc. etc.
Tks
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
|
|
|
theconrodkid
|
| posted on 20/7/06 at 06:04 PM |
|
|
weather you like it or not,the biggest terrorist threat today are muslims,and they have a plan to take over the world,they have no worries about using
houses to launch rockets from,then moan when an airstrike takes the house out.
israel seems the only country with the guts to take these savages on
who cares who wins
pass the pork pies
|
|
|
viatron
|
| posted on 20/7/06 at 07:27 PM |
|
|
Just to throw a bit more on the heap. Remember that Isreal was formed by.....terrorists, albeit supported by the British Government, who through
terrorist actions drove thousands of Palastinians off their own land to form the state of Isreal!
Personally speaking i used to have some sympathy for the Isreali position but their actions over the last few years and a bit more reasearch has led
me to the personal belief that they are just reaping what they have sown. America wont do anything (they invaded Iraq for not abiding by UN
resolutions didnt they?) becuase of the huge American/Jewish lobby in the US. We wont do anything becuase George W wont let us! Oh and BTW which
Middle Eastern State is acknowledged to have a fully viable nuclear arsenal, against the wishes of both the UN and The IAEA? yup you guessed it!
Mac
|
|
|
Confused but excited.
|
| posted on 20/7/06 at 07:31 PM |
|
|
What you have to remember is that 'Israel' was created by the expedient method of our Government taking a large chunk of Palestine, ( sort
of compulsory purchase without the purchase ) off the people that lived there, and settling displaced Jews there from all over Europe after WW2.
The trouble with having an empire, is that they are not sustainable and when they fail, all the crap that you handed out as top dog, comes back to
bite you in the *rse !
It's all just history repeating itself, as it does, because we do not appear to learn from it.
Tell them about the bent treacle edges!
|
|
|
oliwb
|
| posted on 20/7/06 at 08:31 PM |
|
|
I know very little about the situation in honesty but I don't think that Israel's reaction is terribly surprising. If say Norway started
bombing us tomorow and taking soldiers hostage I'd like to think that we would retaliate - and generally I favour the on mass brute force
approach of over doing everything and going in full force which is what Israel are doing. I do think though that war in general is a waste of time
and nothing good comes from it for either side (usually its America and west that benefit (oil) from wars in the middle east!) But none of these
civilizations are going to work until the people decide they don't want to fight anymore and are happy to learn to live together - a bit like
Ireland and NI, but how long did that take us (a supposedly civilised nation!) Oli.
If your not living life on the edge you're taking up too much room!
|
|
|
Simon
|
| posted on 20/7/06 at 08:37 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by smart51
Self defence is enough force to stop our attacker and no more.
I'd dispute that.
If someone gives you a nudge on a repeated basis, you might call it bullying. Ask them to stop, they'll do it more.
Knock ten bells out of them, and they'll avoid you!
All bear in mind that Iran (alledgedly supporting Hezbollah) want the eradication of the Jews and of Israel.
IIRC (and I have a very bad memory), given that the whole thing is quite clearly a religion based thing, and given that
a) Jews use the Old Testament
b) Christians the New Testament
c) Muslims the Koran.
We apparently all believe in the same God, though not who is the Saviour.
In the Old Testament, Israel was given to the Jews by God.
About 3000 years ago.
ATB
Simon
[Edited on 20/7/06 by Simon]
|
|
|
smart51
|
| posted on 20/7/06 at 08:59 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Simon
quote:
Originally posted by smart51
Self defence is enough force to stop our attacker and no more.
I'd dispute that.
If someone slaps you in the face and you break all their bones, guess what the judge is going to say about your disputing what is and is not self
defence. The difference between self defence and retaliation is that defence is just enough and retaliation is more than that.
|
|
|
pajsh
|
| posted on 20/7/06 at 09:06 PM |
|
|
I'm no scholar when it comes to scripture but I'm pretty sure the new testement, old testement and quoran say that killiing is wrong.
This is as much about religion as Northern Ireland was. It's more about an inbred (and totally unreasonable) hatred between Arab & Jew.
If they followed the true doctrines of their religions the would not be killing each other. Live & let live for Gods sake.
We can only hope that as in Ireland they eventually saw the futility of beating the 5hit out of each other and decided to just get on with it.
Ireland is complex enough and has been going on for decades, the arab/isreal thing goes back centuries.
USA does make you sick though with their double standards. Iraq is a mess and you can't say the locals are better off than they were. At least
they had stability and didn't get blown up just trying to get a job.
I used to be apathetic but now I just don't care.
|
|
|
coozer
|
| posted on 20/7/06 at 09:07 PM |
|
|
Just imagine... you live next door to a family of loud inconsiderable thiefing gits who keep sneaking into your garden nicking your kids toys,
throwing all there crap and abuse back over the fence. Generally being a nasty nuisance to you.
You ask them to be a bit more considerate but they take no notice. Neighbors from HELL indeed.
You go to the council and the police and ask them and as usual they take no notice, the council dont respond at all, the police have a look and tell
you they will monitor things but nothing changes then one day you snap and its time to have a go back.
Sounds like something you read about in the papers " council estate nogo zone " are the headlines " police powerless to react
"
Except this is the middle east, its all about religion, Lebanon are the neighbors from hell and Israel have some nukes, so watch out!!
[Edited on 20/7/06 by coozer]
1972 V8 Jago
1980 Z750
|
|
|
smart51
|
| posted on 20/7/06 at 09:07 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Simon
IIRC (and I have a very bad memory), given that the whole thing is quite clearly a religion based thing, and given that
a) Jews use the Old Testament
b) Christians the New Testament
c) Muslims the Koran.
We apparently all believe in the same God, though not who is the Saviour.
In the Old Testament, Israel was given to the Jews by God.
About 3000 years ago.
ATB
Simon
[Edited on 20/7/06 by Simon]
Jews use the old testemant, Chistians the old and the new, muslims use the first 5 books of the old testemant (the torah) plus other writings to form
the Koran.
Israel was a Jewish man, not a place. The jews occupied Jerusalem and the surronding areas until after the romans took over. It became Muslim for a
while after the 7th century, then Christian, then Muslim again.
Jews were allowed to resettle to Palastine after the 2nd World War. Parts of Palestine were split into separate countries, like Jordan. The
remainder was to be divided between the palestinians and the jews. A jewish state named after Israel was formed not that long ago. Since then they
have progressivley reduced the area of land for the palestinians by taking it for themseleves.
Palestinian extremists have attacked the jews for what seems like forever. Israel uses this as an excuse to repress the palastinians. Every so
often, surrounding nations attack Israel and every time Israel beats them back with force.
Both sides abuse the other stating a whole list of past atrocities as justification. Both sides are wrong. Both sides have the ten commandments in
their scriptures stating "You will not kill". Both sides do.
|
|
|
coozer
|
| posted on 20/7/06 at 09:16 PM |
|
|
Forgot to mention, religion IS the root of all evil.
Still I do have a little titter when Israel send the bulldozers in... then the next day protesters are chained to the railings outside the Caterpiller
factory in Peterlee. Ha Ha Ha!
1972 V8 Jago
1980 Z750
|
|
|
joneh
|
| posted on 20/7/06 at 09:31 PM |
|
|
If someone took halk of England away from you, told you too move out and filled it with, say the french, you'd be pissed.
Here's my chain of events that will arise from this situation.
Israel invade Lebanon.
Syria & Iran fund Hizbullah.
America comes to Israels support.
UK jump at Bush's orders.
America acuses Iran of being involved / having weapons / or something else along those lines.
America approaches UN
UN say wee off
America Invades Iran with a coaltion including the UK, and the various other countries they've recently taken over such as Afghanistan.
America forgets about Syria as there's not much oil there.
Arab states hate the western world (Can you blame them?)
Various militants carry out various attacks.
Osama Bin Laden gets blamed.
And then we start the loop with another oil rich country.
Or something similar to that. Have I missed a step?
|
|
|
Simon
|
| posted on 20/7/06 at 09:34 PM |
|
|
http://www.gotquestions.org/Old-Testament-Survey.html
2nd paragraph
ATB
Simon
|
|
|
Simon
|
| posted on 20/7/06 at 09:36 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by smart51
If someone slaps you in the face and you break all their bones, guess what the judge is going to say about your disputing what is and is not self
defence. The difference between self defence and retaliation is that defence is just enough and retaliation is more than that.
This is the middle east. Show me the Judge.
ATB
Simon
|
|
|
wilkingj
|
| posted on 20/7/06 at 09:55 PM |
|
|
Remember:
Retaliate FIRST
They are all wrong and need to learn to live together, bury their differences, and get on with life. ie building homes and making babies... Oh.....
not forgetting ... building and having Locosts
1. The point of a journey is not to arrive.
2. Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
Best Regards
Geoff
http://www.v8viento.co.uk
|
|
|
10X
|
| posted on 20/7/06 at 10:48 PM |
|
|
The only land ever given to any man, by God, was Israel.
Israel has given back great areas of land they rightfully won in the 67 war.
If you are not a Muslim you are an infidel according to the Quran.
If you are an infidel you must die.
Wake up world and realize who wants you converted or dead.
|
|
|
Simon
|
| posted on 20/7/06 at 11:01 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by wilkingj
Remember:
Retaliate FIRST
They are all wrong and need to learn to live together, bury their differences, and get on with life. ie building homes and making babies... Oh.....
not forgetting ... building and having Locosts
Geoff,
I bow to you oh wise one, though I hope your list of what they should be doing was not in order
ATB
Simon
|
|
|
C10CoryM
|
| posted on 21/7/06 at 04:07 AM |
|
|
Israel is doing what has been done hundreds of times in the past. Most recent large example was Russia/Chechnya.
A small group of fighting men who are supported by the local population are VERY hard to wipe out w/o killing the whole population. Many examples of
this in the past, and many more to come. What you do as the more powerful group is say "OK, you guys win. Here is your land to rule as you
wish". They set up their leaders, build a real army, the former hidden men are no longer hidden, and you do lots of intel work. Then you
wait, or quietly poke the new neighbours until they do something you can fight over (like kidnap one of your soldiers on your own land.... act of war
in anyones book).
Then you blow the **** out of them. Kill all the bad guys who are now in public view and if required, roll through the entire land killing everything
you see. It is war after all.
After Israel left the Gaza strip the first thing they did was roll the artillery and ground troops to the border. I laughed when I watched them
"pull out" of the Gaza because I could see what was coming.
Having said that, placed in either sides shoes I would be fighting as well. Both sides have a reason to be mad.
I do not like that people seem to think war should be some touchy-feeley hugfest. War is what happens when all other options have been exhausted and
no amount of talking will fix it. This means you kill your enemy. Not hurt them, not reduce their numbers, but wipe them out. Rule #1 of war is to
kill more enemys than you make. Otherwise you end up with nearly eternal pissing matches between the conquered and the conquerors.
Makes sense to me but then again I don't play into the "pussification" of the western world that is going on either .
"Our watchword evermore shall be: The Maple Leaf Forever!"
|
|
|
AdamR
|
| posted on 21/7/06 at 08:38 AM |
|
|
I wonder if the people posting inflammatory and bigoted remarks about Muslims actually know any Muslims, or whether they've just picked up their
opinions from the Daily Mail or suchlike? The last time I heard such dangerous and xenophobic comments was by authentic rednecks on US local radio on
the day of the London bombings.
I do have quite a few Muslim friends and all of them I’ve spoken to are worried and concerned about the situation in the middle east. Islam, like any
religion, is open to interpretation, and unfortunately, as in any group of people, a tiny minority have extreme views. The vast majority of Muslims
just want to get on with their lives and live in peace and harmony like you and I.
[Edited on 21/7/06 by AdamR]
|
|
|
woodster
|
| posted on 21/7/06 at 09:23 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by viatron
Just to throw a bit more on the heap. Remember that Isreal was formed by.....terrorists, albeit supported by the British Government, who through
terrorist actions drove thousands of Palastinians off their own land to form the state of Isreal!
Personally speaking i used to have some sympathy for the Isreali position but their actions over the last few years and a bit more reasearch has led
me to the personal belief that they are just reaping what they have sown. America wont do anything (they invaded Iraq for not abiding by UN
resolutions didnt they?) becuase of the huge American/Jewish lobby in the US. We wont do anything becuase George W wont let us! Oh and BTW which
Middle Eastern State is acknowledged to have a fully viable nuclear arsenal, against the wishes of both the UN and The IAEA? yup you guessed it!
Mac
well said
|
|
|
