9000rpm
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 09:03 PM |
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AWD single seater idea
What do you guys think of this setup.
I didn't place the chains and the sprocket sizes are not correct. The wheels are not correct either.
[Edited on 20/11/07 by 9000rpm]
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ned
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 09:12 PM |
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someone te other day said a suzuki sj has a nice small 1:1 take off box independant to the gearbox. easier to fit that in line engine and rear axle
and a non central dif at the front with unequal lenth driveshafts. gotta be better than all those chain which will have to be lifed and changed and
adjusted regularly.
Ned.
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blakep82
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 09:20 PM |
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not sure i'd be keen on all the chains either.
on a normal 4wd (say land rover) don't the 2 prop shafts from the transfer box to the axles turn in opposite directions? never checked, but just
kind of assumed they did
________________________
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don't write OT on a new thread title, you're creating the topic, everything you write is very much ON topic!
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9000rpm
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 09:24 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ned
someone te other day said a suzuki sj has a nice small 1:1 take off box independant to the gearbox. easier to fit that in line engine and rear axle
and a non central dif at the front with unequal lenth driveshafts. gotta be better than all those chain which will have to be lifed and changed and
adjusted regularly.
Ned.
I don't like the idea of the unequal drive shafts. This will only be used for hillclimb and maintenence every race is always needed.
Is the Suzuki an open or lock type transfer ?
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 09:36 PM |
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It has to be said, why? 
If its going to be a hillclimb single seater then surely weight is more important than 4WD which will only be a slight benefit off the line and in
tight corners?
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mark chandler
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 10:16 PM |
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You need a centre diff or the transmission will lock up if you attempt to go around a bend which defeats the object as the car will drag, best one
would be a viscous type as an open diff again is a waste of time as all the power will go to the spinning wheel.
nb/ landovers props both go the same way, early suzuki has high, low and locked diff, so only good on gravel.
[Edited on 20/11/07 by mark chandler]
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Hammerhead
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 10:17 PM |
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www.dpcars.net
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russbost
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 10:32 PM |
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I have to agree it would be fairly pointless, I've got 274Bhp in around 600kg, twin bike engines driving rear wheels only, ok I have 285's
on 10" rims at the back, but on a dry road get virtually no wheelspin. It would only have any benefit in the wet & any benefits would
probably be negated by the extra weight.
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9000rpm
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 11:08 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ChrisGamlin
It has to be said, why?
If its going to be a hillclimb single seater then surely weight is more important than 4WD which will only be a slight benefit off the line and in
tight corners?
I beg to differ on this.
I am experienced with both RWD and AWD cars with around 260bhp/tonne and the difference can be felt between the 2.
Granted on a track RWD will out perform an AWD, but on short hill climb race, AWD will win hands down.
AWD will come out much faster from a corner, and until the RWD catches up, you will be faced with another corner.
A freind of mine has a DAX with cosworth engine and running gear (AWD) and the handling is suberb.
Apart from weight, there is also efficiency losses in the drivetrain.
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9000rpm
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 11:13 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
You need a centre diff or the transmission will lock up if you attempt to go around a bend which defeats the object as the car will drag, best one
would be a viscous type as an open diff again is a waste of time as all the power will go to the spinning wheel.
nb/ landovers props both go the same way, early suzuki has high, low and locked diff, so only good on gravel.
[Edited on 20/11/07 by mark chandler]
I have included that too in my diagram.. Something like this
http://www.quaife.co.uk/Chain-drive-cars-ATB-differential
Would you think it will be up to the job ?
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9000rpm
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 11:15 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Hammerhead
www.dpcars.net
That was one of my inspiration.
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D Beddows
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| posted on 21/11/07 at 08:46 AM |
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Afraid I'm in the 'Why?' camp apart from anything else one chain driving a car in is a pain in the ar*se from a reliability point
of view let alone three!
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9000rpm
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| posted on 21/11/07 at 10:16 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by D Beddows
apart from anything else one chain driving a car in is a pain in the ar*se from a reliability point of view let alone three!
Is it that bad ?
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Paul TigerB6
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| posted on 21/11/07 at 10:34 AM |
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Another one for the "why" camp i'm afraid. As mentioned previously, your proposal suffers from having no centre diff so 4wd simply
wont give the traction benefits you would like and will suffer from excessive understeer.
You'd still have the big weight penalty though which on a single seater hillclimb car i'd imagine could be as much as 20 - 25%???
I've been out in the 4wd Tiger Z100WR (twin engined - each driving its own diff, front and rear, with no mechanical linkage) and that used some
very fancy Motec ECU's which acted as an electronic centre diff. The car actually had sensors to measure G Force and this was used to cut power
significantly to the front wheels to improve traction off the line and improve cornering. Before these were fitted and set up properly the car
understeered like a pig.
[Edited on 21/11/07 by Paul TigerB6]
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jono_misfit
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| posted on 21/11/07 at 12:29 PM |
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I think you need some encouragement.
Im sure this debate comes up quite frequently on here.
Ignore everyone else and do what you find interesting. The world would be a dull place if people didnt.
Is the transmittion equiped with a centre diff? From looking at the image youve given the gearbox drives into a chain on the prop and then via two
other chains onto the diffs. Where the first chain connects to the prop seems an epicyclical gear set for a centre diff??
There are a lot of fast 4wd hillclimb cars out there. Admittedly most are car based, but things like Mike Endeans puma are immense. The acceleration
away from the line and out of corners is phenominal.
I also seem to rember a 4wd clubman car being about that was scarilly fast.
Ideally you want a powerfull engine as the transmission losses will be less of an issue. Have you though of going for a super / turbo charged engine?
and moving up to the 2ltr class?
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 21/11/07 at 01:26 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jono_misfit
Ignore everyone else and do what you find interesting. The world would be a dull place if people didnt.
I don't disagree with this but in a competition environment if 95% of the competition are doing it one way (RWD), there's usually good
reason because if an alternative was quicker and not difficult to achieve, everyone would be doing it.
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jono_misfit
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| posted on 21/11/07 at 03:08 PM |
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Its a bit of a double edged area similarity.
A lot of similarities exist in competition cars not always becase thats the best way to go, but becuse the people producing them are too scared of
their idea not working that they wont go against the norm.
This is also compounded by people who buy cars being wary of something different and untested as its their money at stake.
I am not making the decleration that 99% are incorrect to say RWD is superior, im saying that AWD is not necesseraly at a disadvantage and someone
contemplating it shouldnt be knocked for it.
Weight in hillclimbing is very important, however many of the cars have traction issues on any slow corner, the driver must back right off. A suitable
AWD system would help in this regards.
One viewpoint i hold though is if RWD is superior on tarmac why do WRC cars continue to run AWD on it? The teams would have transmission that
disengage the front drive in corner conditions if it was advantageous. In stead the bias is set to 40/60 - 30/70 or similar but maintained.
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9000rpm
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| posted on 21/11/07 at 03:25 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jono_misfit
Is the transmittion equiped with a centre diff? From looking at the image youve given the gearbox drives into a chain on the prop and then via two
other chains onto the diffs. Where the first chain connects to the prop seems an epicyclical gear set for a centre diff??
I drew that centre diff myself. I am not very good in CAD design. It should be LSD chain driven diff.
For argument sake, (this would be hard) it could be changed to a clutch type mechanism where only engages the front wheels when the rear looses
traction and coming out of corners.
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9000rpm
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| posted on 21/11/07 at 03:30 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ChrisGamlin
quote:
Originally posted by jono_misfit
Ignore everyone else and do what you find interesting. The world would be a dull place if people didnt.
I don't disagree with this but in a competition environment if 95% of the competition are doing it one way (RWD), there's usually good
reason because if an alternative was quicker and not difficult to achieve, everyone would be doing it.
As stated above. On a fast track, RWD wins hands down. Putting an AWD on a slow tight corners track, where speeds do not exceed 80mph, rwd won't
have a chance.
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Syd Bridge
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| posted on 21/11/07 at 03:44 PM |
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The only workable solution would probably come from a big quad bike, and you using a bike engine.
Whether the drive train would take the power is another thing altogether???
Cheers,
Syd.
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jono_misfit
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| posted on 22/11/07 at 10:17 PM |
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You could try something like a DCCD centre diff from a japanese Impreza type R or current UK ones.
Im pretty certain they are an epicyclic with plate friction locking. The DCCD bit is an electrical lock up mechanism that allows you to vary it from
locked (or near locked) to fairly open. You can also buy programmable diff controllers for them.
I dont think it would be mega expensive.
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9000rpm
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| posted on 22/11/07 at 10:36 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jono_misfit
You could try something like a DCCD centre diff from a japanese Impreza type R or current UK ones.
Im pretty certain they are an epicyclic with plate friction locking. The DCCD bit is an electrical lock up mechanism that allows you to vary it from
locked (or near locked) to fairly open. You can also buy programmable diff controllers for them.
I dont think it would be mega expensive.
Something similar to the skyline GTR transfer case. Thanks.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 22/11/07 at 10:47 PM |
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Having done similar before, I can assure you that in any "normal" car package, those chains will melt!!
You need either EXTREMELY heavy duty 3/4" pitch drag bike chain and chage it regularly (which is what I am using on my twin bike engine grasser)
or you need morse silent chain running in oil.
Simply look up chain drive specifying guides on the net, try reynolds chain for starters.
For a car type drive, you are off the chart for nearly everything!!!!
You will be using a shorter chain than the guide will allow, with a 1:1 ish drive which necessitates a huge power capacity reduction, then you will
have high rpm and no lubrication, plus dirt.............................................
As I said, I'm using chains (2 of them) as there is no alternative for me, but I wouldn't want to do any number of miles with them!!
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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9000rpm
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| posted on 22/11/07 at 11:12 PM |
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Reliabilty of chains !!!!
I would need to play with the ratio's too, to get a proper final drive ratio.
I would think enclosing the chain in some sort of casing would be very hard.
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Ians
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| posted on 10/12/07 at 04:33 PM |
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awd/chains
Chains are fine as long as you have good sprocket alignment....
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