02GF74
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| posted on 8/7/08 at 09:11 AM |
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petrol running out and alternatives?
all this talk of petrol running out and how electric cars are the future, why isn't alcohol distilled from sugar not being touted as a
workable alternative?
growing the sugar (beet or cane) is non polluting and a renewable resource as long as the sun shines.
but the biggest advantage is that existing car engine technology can be used with some minor(?) modificationt to run on alcohol (they run VW beetles
on alcohol or maybe alcohol mix in Brazil) - surely cheaper and more environmentally friendly than bulding new electric cars?
(mebbe a good time to buy shares in Tate and Lyle).
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iscmatt
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| posted on 8/7/08 at 09:16 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
all this talk of petrol running out and how electric cars are the future, why isn't alcohol distilled from sugar not being touted as a
workable alternative?
growing the sugar (beet or cane) is non polluting and a renewable resource as long as the sun shines.
Nothing is none polluting unless you are planting and picking all this crop by hand... (tractors)
People always seem to get this wrong - its the same with cars, it may run 0% emmissions but its not pollutant free - the factory it was built in
etc
All comments light hearted - thank you 
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nib1980
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| posted on 8/7/08 at 09:20 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
all this talk of petrol running out and how electric cars are the future, why isn't alcohol distilled from sugar not being touted as a
workable alternative?
growing the sugar (beet or cane) is non polluting and a renewable resource as long as the sun shines.
but the biggest advantage is that existing car engine technology can be used with some minor(?) modificationt to run on alcohol (they run VW beetles
on alcohol or maybe alcohol mix in Brazil) - surely cheaper and more environmentally friendly than bulding new electric cars?
(mebbe a good time to buy shares in Tate and Lyle).
and this is the reason that food crops are being massivley overpriced on world markets, and people in those countrys can't aford food now.
the only viable solution is Neuclear.
Discuss.........
.
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SeaBass
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| posted on 8/7/08 at 09:21 AM |
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Errrm... Call me stupid - but isn't that just exactly the Biofuel that is driving up food prices....
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Dangle_kt
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| posted on 8/7/08 at 09:22 AM |
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I thought petrol had just gone up in price... not ran out!
EeeK! 
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 8/7/08 at 09:26 AM |
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Buy a motor bike
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smart51
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| posted on 8/7/08 at 09:29 AM |
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Theoretically, you could make EU farmers who have set asside their land and receive subsidies to use this land to grow biofuel crops. Use could make
them use some of the biofuel to power their tractors and to power the plant that converts the bio matter to bio fuel. It wouldn't affect food
prices or taxation.
The problem, I'm told, is that by the time you've harvested the crop, converted it to fuel and delivered it to filling stations, using the
fuel to power the tractors and truck, there won't be much of your bio fuel left.
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02GF74
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| posted on 8/7/08 at 09:34 AM |
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sorry - seems I didn't make my point clear.
whcih was instead of developing electic motor and building new cars with them, why is more effort done to convert existing engines to alcohol?
biofuel - that is diesetl type stuff? so what about the petrol engines?
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splitrivet
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| posted on 8/7/08 at 09:34 AM |
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Trouble is oils been so cheap for years (relatively, most of the cost to end users is tax) that nobody has had the forethought to come up with a
viable alternative.
Cheers,
Bob
I used to be a Werewolf but I'm alright nowwoooooooooooooo
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SeaBass
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| posted on 8/7/08 at 09:36 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
biofuel - that is diesetl type stuff? so what about the petrol engines?
Not quite...
quote:
Biofuel can be broadly defined as solid, liquid, or gas fuel derived from recently dead biological material, most commonly plants. This distinguishes
it from fossil fuel, which is derived from long dead biological material.
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wilkingj
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| posted on 8/7/08 at 09:38 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by nib1980
and this is the reason that food crops are being massivley overpriced on world markets, and people in those countrys can't aford food now.
the only viable solution is Neuclear.
Discuss.........
Welll err nuclear fuel requires energy to be procesed into a form that can be used in the reactors.
Also Can you see Nuclear powered Cars? not likely, as the potential for Terrorist Dirty Bombs then becomes enormous. The Gov'ts would never
allow any fissile material into the hands of Joe public.
The answer is to slaughter Half the worlds population. Then there would be enough resources to go around.
The Main issue here is that there is a PLAGUE of PEOPLE on this planet.
Its gone from 4 Billion to 6 Billion in the 50 years that I have been here. That is an unsustainable expansion rate, and its begining to show.
Much as I dont like the Chinese (as its a Communist society) I have to admit, they are the ONLY ones who recognise the issue and are actually trying
to do something about it. Perhaps not very well, or not the best way. BUT they ARE trying to do something about it. IMHO its Bonus points to the
Chinese.
Everywhere else its GREED GREED GREED, more more more, me me me me, etc etc!!
This is why life is so stressed. (look at the problems in society etc etc) IMHO we are on a course of self-destruct. Maybe thats not such a bad
thing.
If the worlds time scale was compressed into 24 hours, Man has been here for less than 30 seconds, and what a FU*K UP we are making of it. Despite
our wonderous advances.
1. The point of a journey is not to arrive.
2. Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
Best Regards
Geoff
http://www.v8viento.co.uk
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wilkingj
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| posted on 8/7/08 at 09:40 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
sorry - seems I didn't make my point clear.
why is more effort done to convert existing engines to alcohol?
I've already converted to Alchol...I'm on about 5 pints a night now!
hic... Burp
1. The point of a journey is not to arrive.
2. Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
Best Regards
Geoff
http://www.v8viento.co.uk
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balidey
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| posted on 8/7/08 at 09:42 AM |
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I live in the heart of the Fens, when I was at school my geography teacher was always going on about how the amount of sugar beet we produce in our
area meant that in the next 20 years almost all cars in the UK would be running on fuel produced in our area from a by product of sugar production. We
would be richer that the Saudis.
Unfortunatly thats not happened yet, and EU rules means that now beet production has almost stopped in our area, the sugar plants have shut down, we
buy huge amounts of beet from abroad.
Looks like some trials are going to start soon about making some bio-fuel from beet.
What a wasted oportunity, this was 20 years ago and I doubt the viable alternative fuel will be around in the next 20 years. 
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02GF74
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| posted on 8/7/08 at 09:42 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by wilkingj
The answer is to slaughter Half the worlds population. Then there would be enough resources to go around.
The Main issue here is that there is a PLAGUE of PEOPLE on this planet.
Its gone from 4 Billion to 6 Billion in the 50 years that I have been here. That is an unsustainable expansion rate, and its begining to show.
I heard that sometjhing like 30 % of people that have ever lived are alive right now!!
makes you wonder.
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iscmatt
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| posted on 8/7/08 at 09:59 AM |
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Quote: The Main issue here is that there is a PLAGUE of PEOPLE on this planet.
A superb point well put!!
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 8/7/08 at 10:14 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
quote:
Originally posted by iscmatt
Quote: The Main issue here is that there is a PLAGUE of PEOPLE on this planet.
A superb point well put!!
one 'man' who would agree with you -
Agent Smith: I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species. I
realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding
environment, but you humans do not. You move to an area, and you multiply, and multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you
can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. A virus. Human beings are a disease,
a cancer of this planet, you are a plague, and we are the cure.
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r1_pete
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| posted on 8/7/08 at 10:15 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
Buy a motor bike
And burn more rubber than petrol
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 8/7/08 at 10:32 AM |
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I like this and I think it has a lot of potental --
230 MPG at a steady state of 55 MPH
http://www.aptera.com/details.php
[Edited on 8/7/08 by Mr Whippy]
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Benzine
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| posted on 8/7/08 at 11:12 AM |
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"We're a virus with shoes"
I'm interested in this:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/05/ethanol-1.html
Think how much grass there is growing everywhere, peoples gardens, 400,000 miles of British road verges. Doesn't need replanting either.
I don't understand the whole "it takes loads of energy to plant/harvest crops for ethanol" Run the machines on ethanol then (liquid
sunlight)
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 8/7/08 at 11:24 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Benzine
I don't understand the whole "it takes loads of energy to plant/harvest crops for ethanol" Run the machines on ethanol then (liquid
sunlight)
good point, yeah there are quite a few new methods going around just now, some were in my Focus mag. At this rate petrol and crude oil may be
replaced before the middle east has time to react, they'll be poverty stricken with Hummers
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alistairolsen
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| posted on 8/7/08 at 11:51 AM |
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nuclear electricity production, electrolytic hydrogen productiona dn fucl cell based transport IMO
Dont get me started on this countries setaside policies, or buying from abroad, or allowing our entire manufactuing industry to collapse, or the total
loss of social conscience.
Oil was always going to get expensive, if anyone is to blame its the oil companies and the government
for selling it too cheaply in the past!
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simoto
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| posted on 8/7/08 at 11:53 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
Buy a motor bike
Hes getting it lads, slowly.
striker/blade now complete, thanks to all on this site.
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nstrug
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| posted on 8/7/08 at 12:18 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
all this talk of petrol running out and how electric cars are the future, why isn't alcohol distilled from sugar not being touted as a
workable alternative?
growing the sugar (beet or cane) is non polluting and a renewable resource as long as the sun shines.
but the biggest advantage is that existing car engine technology can be used with some minor(?) modificationt to run on alcohol (they run VW beetles
on alcohol or maybe alcohol mix in Brazil) - surely cheaper and more environmentally friendly than bulding new electric cars?
(mebbe a good time to buy shares in Tate and Lyle).
This is being done already - they're called biofuels.. They are heavily used in South America (from sugar cane) and in the US (from corn syrup).
Its basically a non-starter and only exists due to massive government subsidies.
The reasons why its a complete waste of time:-
1. Destruction of rainforest to plant biofuel crops releases more CO2 than you save by using biofuels.
2. Use of valuable farmland to produce biofuels causes food shortage.
And the killer:
3. Producing ethanol CONSUMES MORE ENERGY THAN THERE IS IN THE ETHANOL!!!
No. 3 is the reason why without government subsidies the whole ethanol-bandwagon will collapse. Oh, and of course the huge amount of energy used in
distillation tends to come from non-renewable fossil fuel sources.
There is an alternative of course - nuclear power. Just two nuclear powerstations could produce all the hydrogen, or more realistically methanol,
required to power all the UK's road vehicles.
The feedstocks would be water and atmospheric CO2.
Unfortunately, people have an irrational fear of nuclear power - they tend to ignore the fact that the fossil fuel industry directly kills thousands
every year (mine accidents, rig accidents, powerplant accidents, lung disease) whereas the nuclear industry has killed 31 people since 1971 (the vast
majority at Chernobyl).
Nick
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saigonij
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| posted on 8/7/08 at 12:26 PM |
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in all seriousness, i really think there should be a cull of humans. There are way too many of us on the planet and as someone else said, we are
destroying it, abusing it, doing what we want with it.
the most intelligent spiecies on the planet - hardly. We are the most stupid animals on the planet..
also have you noticed the amount of "End of the world" disaster movies in the recent years - not only are we obssessed with destroying the
planet, we are also dreaming about it too.
This planet is turning in to a S*ithole - what future do we really have to look forward to?
( sorry for anyone now thinking about killing themselves, although it would help the situation! ).... :-)
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Benzine
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| posted on 8/7/08 at 01:24 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by nstrug
3. Producing ethanol CONSUMES MORE ENERGY THAN THERE IS IN THE ETHANOL!!!
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.10/myths.html
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