Hello All
I've just installed a turbo to my GTS Panther R1
I'm only getting 160 bhp @ the wheels running 10 psi,compared to some people,
Any ideas what could be the problem would be appreciated.

Thanks

I think you would need to fill in a whole load of details as a starting point.

Carbs in a box, EFI intercooled, ignition setup?

We would need a lot more info, I get 200bhp at 7psi on a 919 blade engine so you have something wrong!

Load pictures in your archive

[Edited on 21/12/11 by mark chandler]

Turbo is a T3
RS Turbo intercooler
Timing was set to 107 inlet 104 ex
117mm cometic head gasket
Fuel was set up today by PDQ on the rollers
1 clip leaner on the needles with 116 main jets,
There is no problem with the way it is running but I just want to know why I'm not getting more HP

Any more info just ask

[Edited on 21/12/11 by macboycie]

With carbs you do not get the control of EFI, and your sparks are done by the standard setup so all you can do is force in more air and fuel.

A bad exhaust design will rob power, I have 3" exhaust, when on the rollers all the heat concentrated at the entrance to the turbo, I have an upgraded RS turbo intercooler but all my pipes are mandral bent 2" from the turbo to the plenum which is shaped with trumpets so smooth flow all the way.

A couple on here have R1 turbo's they see ~240bhp with that kind of boost on carbs!

That's why you need pictures as well.

I should add mine was estimated engine BHP, not RWP but the rollers were good and it out ran a tuned scooby for BHP same day, just lacked the torque after 3/4 hour mapping, it arrived with a lot less.

By the sound of your setup it should make a bit
more than that, pictures would be good so we can see things like exhaust size and inlet setup ect !

Noticed yours is quoted in rwhp what would that be at the flywheel?

As a comparison mine made 257bhp @ the flywheel using a TD04 turbo at 12psi its intercooled with a
2 1/2 inch straight through silencer.

[Edited on 22/12/11 by locoR1]

More pictures and info is best.... The r1's from 99 so 4XV were 150bhp standard at the flywheel max, probably lost 15 odd horses over the years. Therefore at the wheel i'd say you'd be chucking out 100bhp standard, but i'd expect more than 60bhp out of the turbo at 10psi.... As Mark above says, he gets a stupid amount of power from a 919 turbo, i'd say hes getting 200bhp at the wheels....

160bhp at the wheels, in a seven would normally be 20% losses = 190bhp ish at the flywheel, Have a look at inlet/exhaust system if i was you.... Your definitely missing a few horses somewhere.

[Edited on 22/12/11 by eddie99]

160 wr hp is about the same as the 200bhp that engine manufacturers sometimes quote.

Still down on what you might hope for.

Isn't a T3 a bit on the small side?

You could put your values in the http://www.squirrelpf.com/turbocalc/

I tried with your numbers and it looked like the turbo might have run out of puff (but I might have got the details wrong).



link to picture

Check all your connections also on pipe work to make sure your not loosing any boost?

Sounds a little low on bhp side, also that turo size is a little small what AFR are you running is it leaning out at top end etc, are you getting enough fuel what fuel pump and pressure you running?

Also headers as said can make a difference and exhaust back press on a turbo?

No leaks on the plenum etc to loose pressure or boost?

Good luck

Are you holding 10psi all the way or is it peaking at 10psi in the midrange then dropping off?

It's not an RS Turbo T3 is it?

I've attched photos of my set up with a graph from the rolling road in my archive
My inlet manifold is 4 inlet pipes into one 2" pipe running to the turbo
My exhaust is 2 1/4 " bore with no major bends
The turbo is actually a TE15 turbo from a Saab 9000 equivalent to a T3
My boost is controlled my a gizzmo, it peak @ 13 psi then drops & holds @ 9.1 psi
Fuel regulator is set @ 0.4 bar on idle
Fuel pump is a syntec

What power did the saab9000 make with that turbo?
I see 200bhp (at the engine) on wikipedia but haven't heard of a TE15

Sorry the turbo is a TE05 12B

Lovely tidy build, congratulations

To put pictures in the page copy the URL at the top when viewing.

To look in other peoples archives click on the links under there avatar's.

For me the exhaust looks to be a culprit, it is a log manifold which is not great but taking all the gases out the chambers, slamming them into a 90 degree bend then moving onwards with sharp another 90 degree bend will create issues.


Description

Mine is okay, knocked up from an old stainlees bike manifold so a bit ugly:


plenum 1

Welderman's is the way to go:


headders and turbo on bench

The biggest issue is heat, you will be throwing a huge amount of heat straight back into the induction system from the position of the turbo.


Description

The intercooler must be in front of the rad, I read somewhere that 10 degrees of addtional heat can cost as much as 10% of power, when I log mine the inlet tempretures drop when I go on boost, yours is doing the opposite and adding heat not extracting!


Description

Even if you leave everything as is, insulate the inlet tubes and put baffles in to seperate the turbo from engine as much as possible, duct the intercooler so not rad air can hit it and extend the air filter so it gets air from in front of everything else or stick it outside the body.


Description

Here's my graph BTW, much less boost on a smaller engine that is completely standard apart from EFI and clutch.


Description

and air ducting that sits under the nose cone


intercooler


First job is move the intercooler and air inlet, high temps = holes in pistons.

Regards Mark

[Edited on 22/12/11 by mark chandler]

Yep manifold I would agree also log style not good for bhp etc.

Thanks
Sean

Thanks for the input
I will move my air filter & get the intercooler in front of the rad
I'll wait until next year to get a tubular manifold made but for now its a good starting point.

The distance between the turbo and the engine should be as short as possible. There is a load of energy in the heat you are losing with the long pipes.


Jeff Schwartz builds his twin turbo LS 7 engines with the turbos right at the head, using thick walled water pipe bends which will not crack.

Pic of my zx10 turbo kit,
Before install,


Rescued attachment turbo engine.jpg

[Edited on 23/12/11 by INDY BIRD]

^^^ Yep... just like that... nice short primaries.

I would love to have my turbo in that position but I do not have the room.

Installed in car if helps


Rescued attachment turbo pipes.jpg

Just hang it out the side!

It is one advantage of having a bit of bodywork.

To be honest stick with what you have. Maybe get a bit of datalogging on there to see what the temperatures are doing and a bit of juggling with airflow. High inlet temperatures are not good (speaking only as an 'armchair professor'.

Photos of what i've done today

Description

Description

I found when mounting the intercooler in front the car got hot on track so put a cossie 2wd intercoole on top and worked a treat and good for easy 300bhp,

Pic

Rescued attachment DSC00113.jpg

Another install I did was on the dax, also changed due to heat on the rad side got to hot on boost went for on top intercooler as above pic,

Cheers,


Rescued attachment dax intercooler.jpg

[Edited on 23/12/11 by INDY BIRD]

[Edited on 23/12/11 by INDY BIRD]

Here's my ZX10R engine before it went in the car



and in the car



Intercooler, oil cooler, radiator up front



I found it ran a bit on the hot side so decided to fit additional cooling in the form of a 12v electric water pump feeding a second radiator mounted in the boot



all discreet again

That replumbing looks a lot more useful to me, I bet you have added 30BHP already but will need the RR to prove.


With regards to room for the turbo, it looks like you have plenty of space, you can always relocate the oil filter with sandwich plate, I used a kit for an escort, just had to modify the central bolt to suit the blades fine threads, as a bonus I get to use a cheaper oil filter


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Or hang it outside

We make things fit here, as we make things It's a good excuse to purchase a tig welder and some 1.5" stainless bends

BTW, can everyone stop posting those great looking manifolds, I may have to revisit mine feeling the shame.

[Edited on 23/12/11 by mark chandler]

There some great cars out there.
I like where my turbo is as I get get to everything.
I will get a tubular manifold made in that position, but do you all thing I will lose any power from that position

Yes, sorry as you are just turning the gases to many times so slowing the velocity which stikes the vanes.

Make sure the bend into the Turbo has a big a radius as possible.

Heat however is what is killing your power IMHO, your re-plumbing looks to have sorted that, just feed with cold air from the front and you will be there , bit more work required as still behind the rad.

Years ago I raced landrovers and had the air filter behind the front wheel, car used to pink when hot, by simply boxing in the air filter and cutting holes to the outside world I solved the issue, if you cannot extend the air fliter then make up a shroud to stop air from the rad entering.

[Edited on 23/12/11 by mark chandler]

Did you ever get to the bottom of or make any progress with the lack of power issue?

I have not done anymore since moving my intercooler as I've been in India working on the motor show

[Edited on 31/1/12 by macboycie]